"A Greater Britain"

Definitively hot, hot, hot this last segment:cool:

So at the end we have the so expected war against Germany of TTL.

I remember that you say in an old post that probably some kind of spanish expeditionary corps could be sent.
We will see this spanish help soon?:)

Definitively I think we will have hot and cool segments with this "Austrian War"

Originally posted by EdT
As a side note, if any of you have a copy of TOAW 3, I've worked out the rough outline of what happens in the war by inputting the various militaries into the game's scenario editor and playing it through. So, once I get to a point that makes spoilers pointless, I'll be posting that up here so people can refight the Austrian war in the comfort of their living rooms :rolleyes:

A pity for me I have the TOAW1, II and Century of Warfare but not the 3, but expecting with anxiety the moment when appear in spanish shops:cool:

A great game the TOAW (although I think it would be interesting if Norm could apply some kind of political engine to TOAW, at least the three versions that I have is more adequate for campaigns that for simulating entire World Wars) I recommend you an oldie game of 1990´s Clash of Steel: Future Edition (SSI classified as abandonware) and Dosbox the programme for simulate the DOs to make run it, he has some lacks (he has options to develop weapons but not atomic bombs..) but it is for me surely the most accurated and at the same time fast and easy to learn and play game of grand strategy of The WWII in Europe (not a lo great Hearts of Iron, but this little game permits to simulate the World War II in Europe with an interesting accuracy without the need to have hours to make an only turn (as in Hearts of Iron happens), in fact in a day of absorbing play of Clash of Steel you can begin and end the game (great replayability):cool: )

Waiting with great interest and anxiety the next segments:cool: :cool:
 
How fare the Italian troops against German?

This is something that'll be touched on in the next part- in short though, they do better then you might expect. Unlike OTL the Italian army has not moved to prepare itself for a war of manouver, and so remains intended for the very campaign that it finds itself fighting- always an advantage in these situations. The first wave of Italian forces to arrive in Austria are the cream of the army and are optimised to fight in Alpine conditions- this, combined with the favourable terrain means that they are able to stand up to the Germans pretty well, as the Wehrmacht isn't able to get it's superiority in armour and mobility into play.

However, the story is quite different on the Yugoslavian front. Here, the lack of transport and armour even relative to OTL seriously weakens the Italian forces, and means that the fighting ends up being closer to WW1 infantry fighting then anything approaching the mobile campaigns of OTL's 1939 and 1940. The Italians have more troops to throw into the fight then the Yugoslavians and so have some advantage, but it's bloody stuff. This will change however when the first British units arrive in the theatre- thanks to Mosely's military buildup the expeditionary force is fully motorised and has plenty of tanks and air support.

In essence then, the Italian army is a lot better on the defensive then it is when trying to take ground.

We will see this spanish help soon?

The Spanish will turn up at some point, although not in massive numbers- several divisions will end up playing a role in the Albanian campaign.

A pity for me I have the TOAW1, II and Century of Warfare but not the 3, but expecting with anxiety the moment when appear in spanish shops

You do know that you can buy and download it online? Although of course then persumably only the English version's available... I'd certainly recommend it, the AI is quite improved and it's nice to have so many new scenarios, even if you can download most of them for free anyway. I agree that the political element is somewhat lacking, although with good use of events you can put some reasonably simulation in. On the world war front I think Piero Falotti's "The Great War" is worth looking at if you don't have it already, and for WW2 "Europe Aflame" is rather good.

Clash of Steel sounds interesting, I'll have to give it a look!
 
This is something that'll be touched on in the next part- in short though, they do better then you might expect. Unlike OTL the Italian army has not moved to prepare itself for a war of manouver, and so remains intended for the very campaign that it finds itself fighting- always an advantage in these situations. The first wave of Italian forces to arrive in Austria are the cream of the army and are optimised to fight in Alpine conditions- this, combined with the favourable terrain means that they are able to stand up to the Germans pretty well, as the Wehrmacht isn't able to get it's superiority in armour and mobility into play.

Individual Italian soldiers were never really the problem in WWII (although many were ill-equippped and had poor morale) the problem was leadership from low level officers to poorly trained NCOs. Many Italian units did do acceptably well when German leadership was there to assist (although again poor morale plagued Italian units). And it would take at least a decade to really change this (if four plus years of WWII in OTL didn't change this then a couple years of peace isn't going to in TTL IMO).

The Germans on the other hand had an army of competant low-level officers and NCOs which IMO should make quite the difference.

One other thing to keep in mind in OTL (and its been a while since I have read some of your earlier stuff on TTL so it may be different) the Italians rearmed ~1935 so their stuff isn't too outdated, however there is a big difference between Italian equipment of 1935 and German equipment of early 1938 (who with the change in the situation in Austria I would have imagined would be equipping those unit destined for Austria with the best and latest equipment).

Now with the changes in geopolitical situation Italy might have begged for British (and maybe French) assistance to help as the situation escalated but by then it was a bit to late. Besides this crisis wasn't exactly planned IMO in the West (meaning little time to prepare) while it was no doubt a possible outcome estimated in Berlin.

Where is all my drabble going with this? Well while I expect the crack Italian units to do reasonably well (how many are in Italy btw and not spread out to the colonies?) the rest of the Italian forces are IMO going to be extremely useless outside Italy (and even there not be all that well positioned if the Germans get into the Po River valley and plain).

However, the story is quite different on the Yugoslavian front. Here, the lack of transport and armour even relative to OTL seriously weakens the Italian forces, and means that the fighting ends up being closer to WW1 infantry fighting then anything approaching the mobile campaigns of OTL's 1939 and 1940. The Italians have more troops to throw into the fight then the Yugoslavians and so have some advantage, but it's bloody stuff. This will change however when the first British units arrive in the theatre- thanks to Mosely's military buildup the expeditionary force is fully motorised and has plenty of tanks and air support.

In essence then, the Italian army is a lot better on the defensive then it is when trying to take ground.

Fair enough but why is Germany not shifting its own armored forces to help their allies in Yugoslavia (and they should get there way before the British can mobilize and ship theirs there, especially since the British government spent so much time waffling around)? For that matter do the British even have the on-hand transport capacity to move that many divisions (transports the British have but how quickly were they mobilized and were they in port at the time of the declaration of war to be quickly grabbed up to be used) quickly?

Granted they have to keep an eye on France but if they are not going on the offensive into France (and certaintly not the low countries) a mobile reserve is all that is needed there.

A couple more things to keep in mind is it takes a while to ship an entire army (unless you are sending them across France but expect the French army to complain loudly about the Brits tying up their rail lines if you chose to go that route which should delay any French engagements into Germany) so the air support the British can send to Italy will be the biggest help initially (although how much do the British dare strip of their own air defenses?).

To be honest I expect the Germans and Yugoslavs to be into the Po River valley by the time a large enough concentration of British forces arrive in Italy to help the Italians to any extent (air power can only help so much and I doubt the British in 1938 has the power of say the US 8th AF during 1944/45 OTL).

Of course this is all my own two cents. :)

[edit]
Oh one last thought how are Italy's allies in Austria going to react to their rounding up of the German population in southern Tyrol?
[/edit]
 
An invasion of the Po valley is not so easy.
  • the Brenner pass can be interdicted without many problems (consider that after the peace settlement of WW1 Italy controls all the Alpine watershed)
  • an invasion from the eastern border has to deal with the big rivers in Friuli and Veneto. Btw, this is March, so all the rivers are in spring flood, with the melting of winter snows and the spring rains (and the problem is even harsher for attackers in the North: defense prevails)
  • when German troops entered Yugoslavia in OTL 1941 they were already in place in Austria, and Hungary was friendly. Now fighting is on in eastern and western Austria, and I doubt that Hungary will see with favor a German army on their southern border (even with less favor a strengthening of Yugoslavia)
  • the Yugoslavian army is not up to mount a major offensive against Gorizia or Udine. The sheer logistics of river crossing and the italian air superiority (likely to be increased by British aircrafts once UK enters the fray) should be enough to make any sch attempt a nightmare
  • Otoh, Yugoslavian push toward Klagenfurt would be threatened by an Italian advance toward Lubjiana (there should be no phisical obstacle here)
  • again, air superiority would tell. You might imagine german planes relocated to Slovenia, but there would be an issue of logistics at least.
  • There are British troops in Egypt who might be mobilised and transported to italy fast enough (say to Bari, and then by railway along the Adriatic)
 
Where is all my drabble going with this? Well while I expect the crack Italian units to do reasonably well the rest of the Italian forces are IMO going to be extremely useless outside Italy (and even there not be all that well positioned if the Germans get into the Po River valley and plain).

Agreed. The Italian army is going to have some serious problems, and that will become clearer later on. That said, I think that the main effect of these weaknesses will be to preclude any effective Italian offensive, rather then to cause their lines to crack- Austria is very good defensive terrain, especially because of the spring weather as LordKalvan points out. I don't disagree at all on your summary of Italian military prowess, but I do think that the situation is enough to cancel many of Germany's advantages- although obviously not the superiority of German leadership.

There's also the air war to consider, which I think it'll be something of a mixed bag. While the Luftwaffe will generally boast superior planes (generally... ITTL the Luftwaffe won't have discovered that the He51 isn't an effective fighter, and the Me109 will be woefully undergunned) the Germans haven't had the advantage of involvement in Spain, so they'll be making many of the mistakes the Condor Legion made in OTL. The Italians have the benefit of experience in both Spain and Abysinnia which will help them, although in general techniques on both sides will not be advanced as in 1938 in OTL. Both sides are going to be bombing each other though, with a lot of success. German He111s are going to cause huge problems for the Italians over Milan and the Po Valley, as much as anything because the Regia Aeronautica's CR.32s can't catch them. This will become less of an issue when the RAF turns up, but until then all the Italians can do is to rush the new CR.42 into production. German bombing of Italy is definitely going to be reciprocated though- I expect the Luftwaffe will find Italian SM.79s as much of a pain as the Allies did in OTL. Munich, Nuremburg and even places like Frankfurt will have to watch out.

It's also worth pointing out that the German army isn't quite as effective as OTL. The troop movements made into Austria OTL uncovered a whole range of logistical problems that will still happen ITTL, only in a wartime situation. on top of this the Germans don't have the advantage of Czech weaponry that they looted in time for the invasion of Poland, as well as the lessons leant in Spain, as I already mentioned. The Germans are harrassed by Heimatschutz behind the lines (something that will be expanded upon in the next installment) which diverts resources from the battlefield and means German troops are tied down in anti-guerilla operations. None of this will stop them advancing, but it will mean that the advance is slowed enough to enable the defenders to entrench themselves.

On a slightly longer term basis, factors like war production need to be looked at as well. In OTL, the Italian declaration of war cut it off from foreign trade- IIRC in 1940 more then half of the Italian merchant navy was abroad at the time and was interned on the spot. None of this is going to happen ITTL, indeed Italy is going to have the advantage of being supported by the British and French economies while still being able to import things from neutrals like the US. Plus, it's not cut off from it's colonies. This is a long term advantage and won't be apparent immediately, but will mean that over time Italian troops will become far better equipped even if it's with British and French cast-offs.


(how many are in Italy btw and not spread out to the colonies?)

The majority of Italian troops are in Italy or Albania- Abysinnia isn't occupied like OTL so a garrison isn't needed there, and Italy's other colonies don't need large defence forces as both Britain and France are friendly powers. There are a few divisions stationed in Spain left over from the intervention, but nothing major. ITTL Italy's military focus has been firmly placed across the Alps for several years.


Fair enough but why is Germany not shifting its own armored forces to help their allies in Yugoslavia (and they should get there way before the British can mobilize and ship theirs there, especially since the British government spent so much time waffling around)? For that matter do the British even have the on-hand transport capacity to move that many divisions (transports the British have but how quickly were they mobilized and were they in port at the time of the declaration of war to be quickly grabbed up to be used) quickly?

Germany can't shift ground forces to Yugolsavia until it secures a land route to the border- as long as Graz holds out then the Italians don't have to worry about German units cropping up in Slovenia. Air support is another matter, and I imagine elements of the Luftwaffe will be flying south quite quickly, if only for the fact that bases in Croatia will allow the bombing of southern and central Italy. This will be something of a relief for the Yugoslavians, who will be facing complete defeat in the air at the hands of the Regia Aeronautica.


Granted they have to keep an eye on France but if they are not going on the offensive into France (and certaintly not the low countries) a mobile reserve is all that is needed there.

Agreed. Hitler is convinced that the French will not be taking offensive action in that theatre, and by and large he's right. Also, bear in mind that with Poland and Czechoslovkia independent and potentially hostile, the Wehrmacht has to guard the east as well. This will provide another strain on resources as well as providing a nightmare for OKW planners.


A couple more things to keep in mind is it takes a while to ship an entire army (unless you are sending them across France but expect the French army to complain loudly about the Brits tying up their rail lines if you chose to go that route which should delay any French engagements into Germany) so the air support the British can send to Italy will be the biggest help initially (although how much do the British dare strip of their own air defenses?).

Yes, it does- although in this case the later British entry helps with things. By the time the BEF arrives in France a lot of the troop movements attendant to French mobilisation have already taken place, so transport is less of a problem- the French section of the BEF won't have far to move from it's arrival point in the pas de Calais, so only the section bound for the Alps (I'm thinking the initial force would be one of the three corps that comprised the BEF in OTL) will require use of the French rail infrastructure. As a side note, thanks to Mosely's re-armament plan and his championing of his good friend JFC Fuller, the British Army is considerably more mobile then OTL- so if neccesary, British troops will be able to take a certain amount of responsiblity for their own transport. Obviously this isn't ideal and would be far slower then using the French rail network, but may speed things up slightly.

It's also worth pointing out that the French Armee des Alpes will be making it's way east around the same time- while the French don't want to be making any moves along the German border I imagine that they'd be happy to send a couple of corps of specialised Alpine troops to help the Italians.

On the air support front, I agree completely- the Italians will be begging the British for Hurricanes to take down the He111s they can't catch. The British won't be able to make too big a committment at first, but problem of stripping air defences is less of a concern then OTL as the RAF is larger and more self-confident, with projects such as Radar and jet engines being further along thanks to extra funding.


To be honest I expect the Germans and Yugoslavs to be into the Po River valley by the time a large enough concentration of British forces arrive in Italy to help the Italians to any extent (air power can only help so much and I doubt the British in 1938 has the power of say the US 8th AF during 1944/45 OTL)

I can see where you're coming from and agree on the relative weakness of Italian forces, but I think you rather underestimate the advantage that the Austrian terrain gives the defenders. The Alps are bloody difficult to push through- it was one of the reasons that Churchill's plan to land in Istria and drive to Vienna never materialised OTL. Now, this may not be a problem if the Yugoslavians can drive towards Veneto and threaten the Italian rear, but I don't think they'd be capable of doing this- my own feeling is that absent significant support by their Allies, neither the Italians nor the Yugoslavians can really do much in the theatre apart from stopping the other from advancing.


Oh one last thought how are Italy's allies in Austria going to react to their rounding up of the German population in southern Tyrol?


Reaction to this is rather mixed. Frankly, at this point in time the Austrians have more important things to worry about, and in any case the government has always disavowed any suggestion that they might want to retake Sudtyrol. From what I can see the agitation in the region was of a pan-german not pro-Austrian character, so Starhemberg doesn't mind all that much. That said, the internment of the South Tyrolese will be a useful propaganda stick for the Germans to beat the Austrians with. It's also worth pointing out that at this point it's not clear that the South Tyrolese won't be coming back- so far they've only been interned for the duration.
 
Originally posted by EdT
You do know that you can buy and download it online? Although of course then persumably only the English version's available... I'd certainly recommend it, the AI is quite improved and it's nice to have so many new scenarios, even if you can download most of them for free anyway.

Thanks for the info, Ed. I knew the possibility to download online, but in fact I am waiting to see it in spanish shops in part for the idiome but also because in some second-hand places (like the famous San Antonio Market -a serie of little second hand stands of books, comics, films and games that round the San Antonio Market in Barcelona-) you can buy with some luck good games at cheap price;) (TOAW II cost me the price of TOAW III because I bought in a great Commercial Center when TOAW II makes its debut, but TOAW I and Century of Warfare cost me only 10 euros each one in the San Antonio Market:) ), I have no hurries (in part I dont have too much time to play games now but also I have a lot of scenarios with Century of warfare to play and the most part I even not begin to play with these).

Originally posted by EdT
(generally... ITTL the Luftwaffe won't have discovered that the He51 isn't an effective fighter, and the Me109 will be woefully undergunned) the Germans haven't had the advantage of involvement in Spain, so they'll be making many of the mistakes the Condor Legion made in OTL.

Yes the Me109 was armed with three 7.9mm MG17 which proved in Spain that this was an armament that lacked hitting power (as you say no German intervention in Spain so the Me109 would continue probably being armed with the three machine guns).
Also the germans have a type of tanks -principally pzkpfwI and II- that compared with the italians for example that in this moments basically are tankettes CV33 and CV35 and the medium tank Fiat 3000 are not precisely the best tanks of the world, in fact the italian Fiat 3000 with a 37 mm gun superior to the 20 mm of the pzkpfwII and a similar armor is no doubt more than a match for the pzkpfwII and a sure killer for the pzkpfwI (that in fact is no more than a tankette).

Two questions:

As you say an important part of the austrian army and the entire aviation has defected to germans, so I suppose that these austrians are fighting in the german side against their old fellows?

And apart of Yugoslavia, we could expect that any other nation could side with the germans?

As ever waiting with great interest the next segment:cool:
 
Hello Edt, I know that you are having a very consuming-time job and also you are making a new story (1910 A space Odissey) but we could see some new segment soon about this very cool Alternate Timeline : A greater Britain?, surely one of the best ATL about interwar period that I have seen:cool: :cool: :cool:

It would be wonderful to see new segments of A greater Britain in the Board:cool: :cool: :cool:
 

maverick

Banned
:confused: :( I thought there was an update.

This was my favourite story on the site, and the reason why I joined.

On the other hand, is it true that he's working on something else?
 
Hello Edt, I know that you are having a very consuming-time job and also you are making a new story (1910 A space Odissey) but we could see some new segment soon about this very cool Alternate Timeline : A greater Britain?, surely one of the best ATL about interwar period that I have seen:cool: :cool: :cool:

It would be wonderful to see new segments of A greater Britain in the Board:cool: :cool: :cool:


Thanks, it's nice to see that people are missing updates on this one! :) Really makes the writing of it more worthwhile.

As I said with 1910, the job makes it very difficult to find the time to write more, I spend enough time in front of word documents at work so it's a bit of a trial to drag myself to the computer when I get home. I definitely haven't given either up, but it may be a while until I get round to writing much more- probably the next time I'll have enough time will be around the Easter Recess or thereabouts. That said, I've got about a third of the next part done already, so that's something I can work on.

On the up side, it's given me some rather good ideas on the domestic British political front- working in Parliament gives you an eye for plausible alternate skulduggery :rolleyes:

Maverick- Really is great to hear that you've been enjoying AGB so much, is brilliant to get that sort of feedback! Yeah, I have been working on something else recently. It's called 1910: A Space Odyssey- it's a rather more fantastical TL then this, full of steam-powered spaceships and so on... :D The link to the thread is up there but you can also download the story so far in pdf form here. Hope you enjoy it!
 
Good to see you again.

I'll read it later. Sounds interesting.

It's not ASB, is it?

Hope you enjoy it... No, it's not ASB- at least not explicitly. Essentially it's a sort of "WI most of pulp Victorian science fiction actually happened?" TL- from Earth's perspective the PoD is the accidental discovery of the rare compund Cavorite- armed with the ability to render large objects weightless the British Empire, and then other Powers spread into the Solar system...

While AGB is designed to be as plausible as possible, this one is deliberately a more hokey, fun piece where I can ramp up the cool factor- it's all as internally consistent as I can make it though.
 

maverick

Banned
I haven't read it yet, but I loved at the minute I saw the picture of the Thunder Child fighting the Martian tripod:p :cool:
 
Originally posted by EdT
Thanks, it's nice to see that people are missing updates on this one! :) Really makes the writing of it more worthwhile.

As I said with 1910, the job makes it very difficult to find the time to write more, I spend enough time in front of word documents at work so it's a bit of a trial to drag myself to the computer when I get home. I definitely haven't given either up, but it may be a while until I get round to writing much more- probably the next time I'll have enough time will be around the Easter Recess or thereabouts. That said, I've got about a third of the next part done already, so that's something I can work on.

On the up side, it's given me some rather good ideas on the domestic British political front- working in Parliament gives you an eye for plausible alternate skulduggery :rolleyes:

Maverick- Really is great to hear that you've been enjoying AGB so much, is brilliant to get that sort of feedback! Yeah, I have been working on something else recently. It's called 1910: A Space Odyssey- it's a rather more fantastical TL then this, full of steam-powered spaceships and so on... :D The link to the thread is up there but you can also download the story so far in pdf form here. Hope you enjoy it!

Yes, I understand the reasons, work and real life is terrible for alternate history creation:D ;).

Good new but the fact that you have not forgotten A greater Britain and you have a third of the next part made:)

I have to read also A Space Odyssey more deeply, and this link in pdf form is :cool: :cool: and very useful:)
 
I like what i read

I must say i was very much impressed with what i read

A+ indeed

Would own it if it was in hard back

Though have you thought of writing a story from the point of view of someone immeresed in the time line... I know it sounds very turtledovish but in my opinion it works

Again great page turner:rolleyes:
 
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