A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta
- Thread starter TheKnightIrish
- Start date
I will cover Porter when I get home.
In terms of Buckner and Longstreet there are a few salient differences. After Fort Donelson Buckner eventually finished up in command of Eastern Tennessee at Knoxville before being swept up by Thomas. As a result he is outside the Chantilly terms (Longstreet signed the surrender under Kearny's terms in the Chantilly House) and was also responsible (directly or indirectly) for some of the unpleasant internicine warfare in East Tennessee. He needed saving from a potential capital charge while Longstreet is protected in any event by the Chantilly terms (at least from execution).
First of all, I enjoyed the latest chapter; looks like the hangmen are getting a lot of work.
Regarding Braxton Bragg's hanging: considering his reputation as a harsh taskmaster, I can see soldiers and officers who served under him attending his hanging and jeering him.
As for E.P. Alexander, considering what Fiver said, that can be considered treason (or at least oath-breaking).
BTW KI, there is one group of officers who would be seriously considered for hanging: Confederate Naval officers, especially those serving on commerce raiders like the Alabama, Florida etc. Early in the war, the Union had a policy of treating captured Confederate privateers as pirates; Davis threatened to hang Union prisoners in retaliation so it was never implemented. However ITTL, I can see the US deciding to treat captured officers of these raiders as pirates; so men like Semmes etc. would more than likely be tried as pirates and hanged if caught.
Regarding Braxton Bragg's hanging: considering his reputation as a harsh taskmaster, I can see soldiers and officers who served under him attending his hanging and jeering him.
As for E.P. Alexander, considering what Fiver said, that can be considered treason (or at least oath-breaking).
BTW KI, there is one group of officers who would be seriously considered for hanging: Confederate Naval officers, especially those serving on commerce raiders like the Alabama, Florida etc. Early in the war, the Union had a policy of treating captured Confederate privateers as pirates; Davis threatened to hang Union prisoners in retaliation so it was never implemented. However ITTL, I can see the US deciding to treat captured officers of these raiders as pirates; so men like Semmes etc. would more than likely be tried as pirates and hanged if caught.
I am going to be honest and say you have caught one of my blind spots: I do not have an E.P. Alexander bio (yet!). However he did surrender at Charlotte under the Chantilly terms. So no hanging for treason. He is however going to join Longstreet and others in prison...however for reasons not ready to be explained he will eventually become an officer in the Imperial Mexican Army...
A historically inaccurate portrayal of Edward Porter Alexander would feature in the Vallarta blockbuster "Hermanos y Exiliados/Brothers and Exiles"
From left to right (ignoring the civilian exiliados grise): a Colonel of the Empress' Lancers, Guard Cavalry (an Austrian), an Imperial Mexican General (Alexander), Emperor Maximilian I, Leftenant of the Empress' Lancers, Guard Cavalry (Mexican)
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I will dig out my J. Thomas Scharf History of the Confederate States Navy. The fates of the Bulloch brothers are the only ones I have thought out. James Dunwoody Bulloch goes voluntarily into exile: first in Havana (where he ended his Confederate service outfitting blockade runners) and later in Tampico. Irvine Stephens Bulloch drowned when the Alabama was sunk in the Bay of Biscay during the summer of 1864...
I am going to be honest and say you have caught one of my blind spots: I do not have an E.P. Alexander bio (yet!). However he did surrender at Charlotte under the Chantilly terms. So no hanging for treason. He is however going to join Longstreet and others in prison...however for reasons not ready to be explained he will eventually become an officer in the Imperial Mexican Army...
A historically inaccurate portrayal of Edward Porter Alexander would feature in the Vallarta blockbuster "Hermanos y Exiliados/Brothers and Exiles"
From left to right (ignoring the civilian exiliados grise): a Colonel of the Empress' Lancers, Guard Cavalry (an Austrian), an Imperial Mexican General (Alexander), Emperor Maximilian I, Leftenant of the Empress' Lancers, Guard Cavalry (Mexican)
Epic film: Elmer Gantry, John Ford's favourite Indian chief, the Joker and the absolute shit from Paths of Glory. Does this mean a Mexican/American Hollywood?
Also I am not sure what your New Spartans are going to make of these garish Napoleonic uniforms on the Rio Grande.
Charles Read would be an example: if he's still a prisoner when the Confederates fall ITTL, he's more than likely going to be tried and hanged for his rampage along the New England coast.
Given the technicolor joy of the "Mexican Adventure" I am surprised there are not more movies and tv shows about it. I can only think of:
Vera Cruz: Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster (and a very young Charles Bronson). Gatling guns, the Emperor, Imperial Mexicans, Curassiers, and Germans/Austrian villians.
Major Dundee: Charlton Heston and Richard Harris. Aside from the main villian, Sierra Apache, the boys in blue and gray also have to face off against French Imperial Lancers! Union coloured trooper to Rebel soldier as they spy on a column of Franco-African tirailleurs: "My boys can whip em""How do you figure that?""They is soft. They aint never been south!". Great movie.
Vera Cruz: Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster (and a very young Charles Bronson). Gatling guns, the Emperor, Imperial Mexicans, Curassiers, and Germans/Austrian villians.
Major Dundee: Charlton Heston and Richard Harris. Aside from the main villian, Sierra Apache, the boys in blue and gray also have to face off against French Imperial Lancers! Union coloured trooper to Rebel soldier as they spy on a column of Franco-African tirailleurs: "My boys can whip em""How do you figure that?""They is soft. They aint never been south!". Great movie.
We stumped TheKnightIrish. Do we get a prize?
On a serious note, I was curious on how far out you were going to take this timeline? I'm wondering how the world of AGUoAtNS differs from the world we know and live in.
Mexico and the Imperial Mexican service is offering a lot more ITTL than it did in OTL.
Puerta Vallarta will be a magnificent hub for Anglo-Mexican film making for decades from the 1930s.
I am slightly crazy about Imperial Mexican uniforms.
My internal jury is still out on the commerce raiders. I will be mentioning the Bulloch's shortly/in a couple of chapters so I'll have to take a view by then.
I love Major Dundee! "Pony Soldier! I am Sierra Charibba! Who will you send against me now?" Also Senta Berger...mmmmmmmmmmmmm....
I can also think of The Undefeated with John Wayne and Rock Hudson.
We stumped TheKnightIrish. Do we get a prize?
On a serious note, I was curious on how far out you were going to take this timeline? I'm wondering how the world of AGUoAtNS differs from the world we know and live in.
Hmmm...
Evangelical Communalists Leaders in Jackson, Mississippi 1891. Their ideals were inspired by the works of Rev. Henry Martin Tupper after the Civil War. They had little competition for control of the religious-left in the African-American community but among the white community they would face opposition from the less pacific and anti-semitic Merrillists or MAOists. The Merrillists, also known as MAOists/Maoists, took their lead from the post-war works of Selah Merrill and his seminal text "Many Are One".
Officers and men from the USS Monongahela during the Third Punitive Expedition to Corea in 1903 which saw the partition of Corea into its three parts.
And several years later...Austrian (pictured) and Mexican Marines occupy the American Concession at Tientsin during the Emperors War taking the first US prisoners of war (forced to pose below).
Ok I have a lot of plans made out until at least the 1920s...I hope that whets your appetite.
Oh and I think I mentioned the Ottoman/Egyptian Confederate mercenaries?
General Patrick Cleburne/Cleburne Pasha and staff
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Well my appetite is wetted.
In the meantime, another general to ask about. William Mahone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mahone
In OTL, he became a Republican after the war. I suspect he is covered by the Chantilly terms, but wonder what happened to him after war.
In the meantime, another general to ask about. William Mahone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mahone
In OTL, he became a Republican after the war. I suspect he is covered by the Chantilly terms, but wonder what happened to him after war.
Mahone was injured at Thomasville repelling Thomas Egan's over-ambitious attack. He was seriously injured during the attack on Charlotte that culminated in the charge of the Irish Brigade. He had not returned to duty by the time of the surrender and was clearly covered by the Chantilly terms. Mr Mahone would be proscribed and would be an early voice joined with Matthew Maury's in favour of a concentrated Confederate colony in Mexico - "New Virginia" as it was called at that time before being renamed more inclusively the Carlotta Colony or more properly the Carlotta Grants (to reflect the land grants from the Emperor rather than some colonial migration).
William Mahone was an ally of Herschel Johnson and would, on a number of occasions, be elected as one of the three deputies from the department of Coatepec ("Coat n Peg" to the Anglo-Mexicans/Exiliados Grise).
Deputy William Mahone of the Department of Coat'n'peg
I have a question for you all: after I deal with Jeff and Barnwell Rhett (spit!), Lincoln's views on race relations and Kearny's jaunt in Europe, I am going to touch on the future of the army and the veterans.
My question for the readers is: what lessons do you think (i) the generals and (ii) future generations are going to take from this version of the Civil War in contrast to that in OTL? I have my own ideas about category (i) especially when it comes to Kearny, Hooker, Rodman etc but I would be interested to read your views on both...
The Rodman/Sixth Corps Memorial at Union Mills National Park (Pipe Creek)
My question for the readers is: what lessons do you think (i) the generals and (ii) future generations are going to take from this version of the Civil War in contrast to that in OTL? I have my own ideas about category (i) especially when it comes to Kearny, Hooker, Rodman etc but I would be interested to read your views on both...
The Rodman/Sixth Corps Memorial at Union Mills National Park (Pipe Creek)
Hmm...I'm trying to remember all the campaigns and battles but that maybe mobile warfare was better than entrenched positions (for the most part) as overwhelming fire support will overcome them. It seemed that every time the Confederates tried to entrench they were just overwhelmed by Union artillery or naval guns if not just out flanked. However when the Confederates went mobile it was easier to defend. On the Union side being mobile easier to bypass or destroy static defenses if enough material and men were present.
But I could be remembering things wrong so take my two cents for what it is worth.
But I could be remembering things wrong so take my two cents for what it is worth.