A Giant Sucking Sound: a President Perot TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by MaskedPickle, Aug 23, 2011.

  1. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    North Italy

    No poor Achille deserve his shoot to the Prime minister seat...for all the 5 minutes he will last. Internal infighting between the moderate and the hardliner as Cossutta, Bertinotti and co. will probably paralize government work with a crisis for any issue (just like OTL) and Occhetto has not the carisma or anything else to rein them and is better not talking about the courage to do anything for reform the system (the euro is coming) so with all probability after a year or two (maximum) the left government will be changed with one of tecnician with external help from the left and other (in a issue by issue system).
    Frankly i see Gianfranco Fini (national alliance who will probably the second italian party) the big winner here, as if the left in their first government give a poor performance he can swept the vote in the next election, at least him has enough carisma and political capacity to do it...Bossi is too idiot, maybe they coopt Prodi to take the place of Berlusconi as the frontman of a possible coaliation.
    For no reality, ehy except is a good thing...frankly you must admit that Big Brother or even L'isola dei famosi (our version of survivor vip) are nothing comparate to what our politician do:rolleyes:, people see them just to get something of more decent.
    Just a think, i buy a conviction for Craxi and Berlusconi, but Andreotti (basically the evil and smarter brother of Dick Cheney) is out of the question, he is too intelligent and frankly he know where all the people (and their fathers and grandfathers) had buried their little secret
     
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  2. TheBerlinguer New-school baby-eater

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    Sure, National Alliance could very well be the second party in Parliament after the Progressists ITTL but you're seriously overestimating Gianfy: an alive and kicking Almirante would have the political and tactical skills to present a Neo-Fascist (!!!) party to the Italian public as government material, but his heir is simply not the right man for this job! OTL drop from 16% to 9% of the popular vote for the party in his fifteen-year-long leadership after the right-wing coalition winning two elections is already not very encouraging for your proposed scenario, and if you add the pathetic management of last year split of Future and Freedom from The People of Freedom, where Fini couldn't keep a firm grip on his colonnelli before and on many secessionist parliamentarians after I think that the success of AN would be short-lived ITTL, with Fini always relegated to the position of Junior coalition leader.

    Speaking of coalitions your idea of Prodi shifting to the right is instead very plausible if the Italian Left comes down after too much internal infighting, epecially if he drags Casini with him. An enlarged Daisy (to the casual reader, I'm not kidding: one of Prodi's political groups was really named after that flower!) with PPI-DDC-AN could very well form a stable government and could actually win the elections! Being a former Christian Democrat ol' Romano wouldn't have any problem in creating an alliance with the (far) right, or better THE alliance so wished by many former DC premiers but never really possible due to the unwritten compromise with the Communists.

    Your doubts on a convicted Andreotti have solid foundations, VERY SOLID! But, not to call ASB without appeal I'm now imagining Bettino pulling a Fox (Damn... Too much LTTW!) and revealing absolutely everything about the Divo just to take Giulio with him. OTL Craxi the Tunisian proves that he was definitely not a lionheart, after all, and the deaths of Falcone and Borsellino (which were the tombstone on any chance Andreotti had to become President) are enough for the public to trust everything Bettino has to say.

    Concerning Mani Pulite, another man who has a lot to gain from the increased success of TTL one is Antonio DiPietro: I can see him selected for the CSM in five years at most (unless he has an unfortunate meeting with a bullet), maybe even as its Chairman, or, less probably, he could enter politics ITTL too, becoming a heavyweight in the right side of the Hemicycle (no Berlusconi, no self-imposed exile in the left-wing: he could even become best pals with Fini).

    One last note: I'm a fan of Italian reality shows as much as I want another peritonitis but at least they prevent housewives and teenagers from giving too much thought to politics. Christ, those people are scary! The kind of people who elected Hitler in 1932!
     
  3. Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Location:
    Corpus Christi, TX
    Good TL so far, especially since I was growing up during this era (I was born in 1981).

    How worse will it get?
     
  4. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    Dec 13, 2009
    Location:
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    well here he must not contend the leadership with Berlusconi and his constantly move to erode is authority (as a good tradition in italian policy Silvio don't like any man who can challenge him in is own group), and frankly he can feel that a right-wing party can take cleary the lead of the nation and a frontman like Silvio is not needed. Secondly without Berlusconi party the response to the immigration problem will be the main zone of battle between Lega and AN...because i know that Occhetto and co will go for the 'put the head in the sand and hope that go away' solution


    Frankly i never seen 'La mortadella' as a man of the right just as one who oppose Berlusconi without him all games are open...

    I think that old Giulio can weather all that, as many can take all Bettino revelation as a last desperate attempt of get some revenge and have doubts on the authenticity.

    Yeah that can be a winning pair


    Honestly i always thinked that (at least in Italy) the media influence is vastly overstimated, we all basically listen to the party organ or the journal, tv etc. etc. of our side and frankly the quality of our journalist is very very very low.
    For me it's more a case of well better him than the other at least he do something instead of bickering for everything and go for the holyer than you approach.
    Frankly basically declare after the first time Berlusconi winned an election that all was fault of the electors and that they (the people) were stupid for voting him is not a very good move if you want influence people in the future, if some invent a party and in three months beat the assured winner i think that the one who lost must done a serious analysis of what gone wrong and how he don't get the message trought because that means that your supposed basis are not strong as you think or what you propose is not what the people want.
     
  5. MaskedPickle Well-Known Member

    RWANDAN AND BURUNDIAN PRESIDENTS DIE IN PLANE CRASH
    -Washington Post, April, 6 1994

    ARMY TAKES OVER IN RWANDA, TEN BELGIAN BLUE BERETS KILLED
    -Le Monde, April, 7 1994

    RUMOURS OF EXACTIONS AGAINST TUTSIS IN RWANDA ; UN AMBASSADOR GRAHAM CALLS FOR AN INTERVENTION
    -Washington Post, April, 14 1994

    « What is allegedly currently occurring in Rwanda is a tragedy that no one should ignore. Civil war and infighting are unfortunately common scourges in Africa, but the will to eliminate a people because of ethnic hate is unbearable and a disgrace to manking. We already have the memory of what has happened in Europe during World War II and in Cambodia in the 1970s, we still have this shame. And the shame not to have done anything in Rwanda will not stain my administration. I have already contacted Lieutenant General Romeo Dallaire, the commander of the UNAMIR, so he could protect foreign expatriates and help Tutsi refugees. »
    -Press conference of President Ross Perot, April, 16 1994

    When he remember how roughly he handled the Somali Civil War, one could be astonished by how humane President Perot was when the Rwandan Genocide occurred. When he told the reporters that he wanted everything to prevent a genocide, having been already marred by the Holocaust and the Cambodian Genocide, well, I think he really thought about it. Many senior officers, including Dallaire, told him that engaging military resources in the Rwandan conflict would be a quagmire in such a difficult region, but he remained steady and wanted to save the Tutsis. When Dallaire reported him that no many things could be done to prevent the exactions, he immediately asked him to help the Rwandan Patriotic Front’s operations and asked Ambassador Katherine Graham to put in place a joint UN peacekeeping mission in Rwanda, with extensive US commitment, the US contingent was to be controlled by then-Lieutenant General Wesley Clark. Some dissenters said that Perot wanted, after the conclusion of the Somali conflict, to maintain at all costs an American military presence in Africa, but I think he was right into saving the day in Rwanda. And that, you can’t remove credit from him.
    -From The President’s Son-in-Law : Memoirs from Washington, by former White House Counsel Clay Mulford

    NIXON DIES ; PRESIDENT PEROT SALUTES « A MAJOR STATESMAN WHO HAD MANAGED TO REDEEM HIMSELF »
    -Los Angeles Times, April, 22 1994

    « When two years ago I pursued the Democratic nomination for President of the United States, I already knew that I could nothing against what disappointed me so much in Senate : partisan politics, lack of initiative, lobbying and corruption. I said many times that we needed a national leader to embody the need of reforms for this country, and President Perot proved himself to be that leader. That’s why I joined the Freedom Party, and even if I decided not to pursue the nomination for being its gubernatorial nominee here in Massachusetts, I would do everything to send as many as possible of Freedomites to change things in Washington ! »
    -Former Senator Paul Tsongas (F-MA) in a Freedom Party rally in Boston, MA, April, 27 1994

    MANDELA INAUGURATED SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT
    -New York Times, May, 10 1994

    « President Perot has agreed with Senator Dole’s proposal to uniterally lift the arms embargo against Bosnia. He and Secretary of State Kirkpatrick considered that the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina had the right to defend itself by its own means against Bosnian Serbs ».
    -Press Secretary James Squire, May, 12 1994

    « Not only I shared many views with Senator Hatch, but even if he refused my many attempts to convince him to join the Freedom Party, any reasonable lawmaker has to honor his almost-18-years-long commitment to the interests of the great state of Utah. One of the most competent members of the Senate Judiciary Comittee, he was in fact many times in a short list of people deemed to serve in the United States Supreme Court, and that’s why I have decided to select him. So please introduce my friend, maybe the successor of Harry Blackmun and our second Mormon Associate Justice, the honorable Senator Orrin Hatch from Utah ! »
    -Press conference of President Ross Perot, May, 13 1994

    « We can report you that the UN peacekeeping mission in Rwanda, codenamed Operation Righteous Strike, has arrived today in Rwanda through Giyensi, at the northwest of the country, commanded by the joint command of Canadian Lieutenant General Romeo Dallaire, US Lieutenant General Wesley Clark and French General Jean-Claude Lafourcade. It is announced that contacts have already being brockered with Rwanda Patriotic Front leader Paul Kagame and the peacekeeping force is taking the road to the Rwadan capital of Kigali, trying to help Tutsi refugees in their way… »
    -CNN, May, 14 1994

    BERLUSCONI INDICTED FOR ALLEGED LINKS WITH MAFIA ; CHARGES AGAINST ANDREOTTI DROPPED
    -Corriere Della Sera, May, 21 1994

    AMERICAN FOOTBALL STAR O. J. SIMPSON DIES IN TELEVISED POLICE CHASE ON INTERSTATE 405 ; WAS SUSPECTED OF MURDER OF HIS EX-WIFE AND A FRIEND OF HER
    -Los Angeles Times, June, 17 1994

    PRESIDENT PEROT OPENS 1994 FIFA WORLD CUP, SAYS THAT « SOCCER COULD BECOME AN ALL-AMERICAN SPORT »
    -Chicago Tribune, June, 17 1994

    NORTH KOREAN LEADER KIM IL-SUNG DIES, REPLACED BY SON KIM JONG-IL
    -Washington Post, July, 8 1994

    « Even if I’m ready to cooperate with new leader Kim Jong-Il, I must repeat that the United States are still opposed to the oppressive dictatorship the North Korean state exercises on its inhabitants and that every effort has to be taken to reunite the Korean peninsula or at least to help human rights in North Korea. »
    -Secretary of State Jeane Kirkpatrick on Larry King Live, July, 10 1994

    « Without US President Ross Perot and his commitment to end the genocide here in Rwanda, the death toll would have been much more terrible, if such a thing would have been. Even if the United States and the Perot administration have done much for Rwanda and its neighbouring countries, I must say that his successors have not been so kind. »
    -Inauguration speech of Rwandan President Paul Kagame, March, 24 2000
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
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  6. vultan Defying Gravity

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    Dec 12, 2008
    Location:
    Somewhere Only We Know
    It's good that the Rwandan Genocide was more-or-less nipped in the bud. At least in means this won't be a complete dystopia.
     
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  7. MaskedPickle Well-Known Member

    RamscoopRaider - Thanks!

    historybuff, unknown - I will try to remain realistic. This world will never turn as a living hell, more crapsack.

    vultan - Now that I read that, I should have included him... but now it's done!

    Redem - Or the Weird Al parody forever in his mind...

    Plumber - Well, the problem is that I have already done gubernatorial, senatorial and congressional lists for Puerto Rico from 2000 only. Let's say that they need time to have the approval of the whole population, as they didn't reached a majority.

    nerdknight01 - As I lived in Mexico for quite a long time, be sure that I will have plans for Mexico, in particular with the economic meltdown! As you can see, the Zapatista uprising has not occurred, without any NAFTA.

    The Berlinguer, lukedalton - Thanks a loooooot!
     
  8. Cathcon1 Feudalist Party Founder

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    Jan 25, 2011
    Location:
    Michigan
    Will Tsongas get past his cancer and be able to run for political office again? Or will he sadly die on schedule?
     
  9. Unknown Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Corpus Christi, TX
    At least the Rwandan Genocide was (largely) averted. OTOH, the conspiracy theories about O.J.'s death and his involvement in the murders of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman will be interesting.
     
  10. historybuff Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so Hatch is a Supreme Court Justice, and Rwanda gets a lot of UN help.
     
  11. nerdknight01 Helsman TCS Vengance.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    ¡ Hi ! to MaskedPickle: ¡ THANKS !:cool:.

    Yep, is true, some engine, push for the zapatista´s movement was the NAFTA, and i belived that movement ocurrs but maybe with less force;), the freaking scary moment for México, and say that seriously was the total and complete economic metldown:eek:, and because the fights between left and right, rich and poors, liberal and conservatist, etc....if this meltdown´s without external helping situation happen, well let say maybe that it be a real nightmare:eek::eek:.

    Good luck:).
     
  12. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    Excellent work, nice to say that Perot understands the meaning of the phrase Never Again
     
  13. Falkenburg CMII Donor

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    Jan 9, 2011
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    Lurking
    As gratifying as the Rwandan Intervention is from a humanitarian point of view the decision to untie Bosnias' hands could have more profound effects (geo-politically).

    I hope President Perot has an equally sane approach to the (excessive) deregulation of finance.
    He could save the world a lot of pain.

    Keep up the good work.

    Falkenburg
     
  14. MaskedPickle Well-Known Member

    PEACE FORMALLY SIGNED BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JORDAN
    -Washington Post, July, 25 1994

    HATCH CONFIRMED BY SENATE TO BECOME ASSOCIATE JUSTICE ; REPLACED BY FMR. GOV. BANGERTER
    -The Salt Lake Tribune, July, 29 1994

    TSONGAS ELECTED CHAIRMAN OF FREEDOM PARTY
    -Boston Globe, August, 9 1994

    « The Americans have now invaded our neighbours in Rwanda in order to save our Tutsi brothers from destruction. They agreed into recognizing the inferiority of the Hutu race which has unlawfully ruled our motherland for too long. What are we waiting for ? That the Hutu monsters from Rwanda come to Burundi to exterminate our people ? As Africans, we must rise and stand against the enemy ! »
    -Former Burundian President Pierre Buyoya (1987-1993), speaking to Burundian Tutsi military officers in Bujumbura, Burundi, August, 13 1994

    LUIS DONALDO COLOSIO NARROWLY WINS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, OTHER CANDIDATES CONCEDE ; « MEXICANS HAVE MADE THE CHOICE OF STABILITY BY RETURNING PRI TO POWER » SAYS KIRKPATRICK
    -New York Times, August, 21 1994

    RUSSIA AND CHINA AGREE TO DETARGETING EACH OTHER
    -Washington Post, September, 3 1994

    « Eighty years ago, when he launched his third party bid to the White House, former President Teddy Roosevelt said that the election was to be the battle of Armageddon. Now, as Vice President of the United States, I say : go to the polls and vote ! Make the people decide, shout for your voice ! Vote against the obstructionists of the Democratic Party, vote against the incompetents of the Republican Party, but vote well, vote with your heart ! »
    -Vice President Jerry Brown (F-CA) campaigning at San Francisco, CA, for Freedom Party Senate candidate Pete Ueberroth, September, 5 1994

    PEACEKEEPING TROOPS SECURE KIGALI ; FIRST ESTIMATION OF RWANDAN VICTIMS BEYOND THE HALF-MILLION DEAD
    -New York Times, September, 9 1994

    « Yes, we can undoubtedly speak of a genocide in the case of Rwanda. And I urge Secretary General Boutros-Ghali to agree with me if he wants to have a clear conscience. »
    -Press conference of President Ross Perot, September, 10 1994

    DRUNKEN MAN CRASHES CESSNA ON WHITE HOUSE SOUTH LAWN WHILE PEROT WAS IN LOS ANGELES
    -Washington Post, September, 12 1994

    Frank Eugene Corder’s stunt with his plane was unfortunate for the administration, as it occurred the day before the announcement of the opening of the Firearm Owners Database on the Internet, by members of the Task Force DIIN ; President Perot was precisely in California to appear alongside the informatics genius in the Silicon Valley, to speak highly of the Internet, of his importance on America’s future and of the need of an extensive guns control and of a public registration of gun owners of the Union. The Republicans used this at their advantage, taking a quick surge in polls prior to the midterm elections, saying that the President only opened this database, « this disgrace to the Second Amendment » as they said, because he had been afraid for his own life, victim of a mad man and while the White House missile batteries had not fired against the assassin. Not only the plane crash was an accident, only causing the death of Corder, but the White House has no such missiles. But still, it drew attention to President Perot’s absence from the White House due to his high activity.


    He didn’t campaigned by himself for the Freedom Party candidates, sending his own money instead through friendly investors or sending Vice President Brown, new chairman Tsongas or Associate Justice Luce to campaign on his behalf ; instead, President Perot, who had been considered during the presidential election as some sort of isolationist, worked on his image as a world watchman, an international redresser of wrongs, now urging Congress to send money to rebuild Rwanda, warning of Saddam Hussein’s reluctance to let UN disarmement inspectors enter in Iraq, which has been completely ruined by the last bombings, and even helping to restore Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the legitimately elected President of Haiti, whom he viewed as some sort of black John Paul II or Mother Teresa who would have entered politics to save his people.


    A bit like him, the Texan businessman who had become the savior of Africa.


    Speaking of Frank Eugene Corder, it’s disturbing to see that Francisco Martin Duran’s attempt only six weeks later was a lot more serious and would have sparked a new debate on guns control, but it was ten days before the election, and without any risk.
    -From The President’s Son-in-Law : Memoirs from Washington, by former White House Counsel Clay Mulford

    GOV. CLINTON ON WHITEWATER : « I DID NOT HAVE BUSINESS RELATIONS WITH THAT COMPANY »
    -Arkansas-Democrat Gazette, September, 15 1994

    SADDAM REFUSES TO COOPERATE WITH UN INSPECTORS FOR DISARMEMENT, MASSES TROOPS ON KUWAITI BORDER
    -Washington Post, September, 18 1994

    OPERATION UPHOLD DEMOCRACY : US TROOPS PEACEFULLY ENTER HAITI, PUSH MILITARY REGIME FOR ARISTIDE’S RETURN
    -The Guardian, September, 19 1994

    The Shawshank Redemption (1994). Directed by Frank Darabont. With Tim Robbins, Paul Newman, Bob Gunton, William Sadler. Two imprisoned men bond over a number a years, finding solace and eventual redemption through acts of common decency. Nominated for 7 Oscars.
    -IMDB page on the Shawshank Redemption

    ARISTIDE RETURNS TRIUMPHALLY IN HAITI
    -CNN Breaking News, October, 15 1994

    US TROOPS BOMB IRAQI TROOPS ON KUWAITI BORDER BEFORE ULTIMATUM EXPIRES ; « IRAQ SEEMS TO MAKE EVERYTHING TO BE DISGRACED BY OTHER NATIONS » SAYS KIRKPATRICK
    -New York Times, October, 17 1994

    « Ross Perot has restablished me back in 1994, and he even supported me so I can run for re-election in 1995, and he allowed me to lead this great nation from there to 2004, when CIA operatives decided to deport me to Africa for crimes I hadn’t committed. And now, America claims to be helping Haiti with this tragic earthquake ? Who can trust America ? »
    -Former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide (1991, 1994-2004), speaking at President-Elect Wyclef Jean’s inauguration, May, 14 2011
     
  15. MaskedPickle Well-Known Member

    The two next updates will be devoted to the results of the 1994 midterm elections. You will see how much detail I have given to this part.

    vultan, historybuff, RamscoopRaider - This decision, in my sense, is not opposed to Perot's overall style; as a non-politico, he would certainly have been more concerned with the fate of thousands of Africans... But the winds of change prepare something here...

    Cathcon1 - To quote Lord Roem: butterflies can form hurricanes, but they can't refrain cancers. Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma is a terrible disease in reality, and Tsongas will unfortunately die on schedule.

    Unknown -
    I preferred to have the cultural ramifications of a highly televised show trial butterflied away, and hence a symbol of the 90s.

    nerdknight01 - Even if without the troubles put by the Zapatista rebellion, I have decided to have PRI return for a last time, given the high unstability of that area. I have also decided to give Colosio justice by sending him to Los Pinos, as a homage to a man who would have reformed the country. But succeeding Salinas remains a pain.

    Falkenburg - On this date IOTL, Dole had already proposed to lift the arms embargo but was vetoed by Clinton, who finally agreed two months later. Let's see what consequences this decision will have on the Bosnia War.
     
  16. John Fredrick Parker Donor

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    Los Angeles
    Well, Perot's better in Rwanda and Bosnia than OTL Clinton, though Somalia and Iraq remain... unsettling
     
  17. Redem Proud citizen of her majesty

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    Location:
    Canada
    The voice-over industry in this TL must be really different:p
     
  18. historybuff Well-Known Member

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    This just keeps getting more interesting by the update.
     
  19. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    Location:
    Newtown, CT
    Good work, love the quote by Clinton
     
  20. Cylon_Number_14 Nothing Unreal Exists

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    Feb 26, 2009
    Location:
    Former Province of Alta California
    I eagerly await the midterm elections. I think that the Freedom party would only be seriously viable if it caused a "hung parliament" with no majority party to sideline it. This could be done with even just 20 Representatives. Even if the Dems and Reps go through "forced bipartisanship" to sideline the Freedomites, it would still be good press for Perot. Being sidelined by a Republican majority would be very bad.

    Also, I think the Freedomites have a shot at getting a smattering of state legislators, mayorships of cities, elected attorney general positions, and maybe (just maybe) a governorship. This would form a strong base for 1996.

    But with all that said, I seriously don't think the Freedomites could get more than a couple dozen electoral successes across the country in 1994. However, if they can build up to holding onto even 1/6 of congressional etc seats by 1996/2000 with between 1/4 and 1/3 of the national popular vote, they'd be able to survive the first-past-the-post electoral system of the USA better than any previous third party.