A Germania question:

Rosencrantz · Mar 24, 2015

If Berlin was too squishy and swampy to support Hitler's victory arch, volkeshall and all the other cartoonishly oversized buildings he was planning, where else would he put it? This is assuming he won the war and could choose anywhere from Belgium to the Urals.

Alternatively, can something that big be constructed in Berlin today? Have we solved the squishy land problem?

Julius Vogel · Mar 24, 2015

Rosencrantz said:
If Berlin was too squishy and swampy to support Hitler's victory arch, volkeshall and all the other cartoonishly oversized buildings he was planning, where else would he put it? This is assuming he won the war and could choose anywhere from Belgium to the Urals.

Alternatively, can something that big be constructed in Berlin today? Have we solved the squishy land problem?

I was reading recently about the reconstruction of the old palace/castle in central Berlin (Humboldtforum?) where they talked about the discovery of the original wood piles used to create a stable foundation as well as modern day efforts to build new buildings in central Berlin. It all sounds rather hard work. Loads of pumps and such. Although I guess a modern arch could be more of a facade built over lighter structural materials, so perhaps less of an issue to build?

Rosencrantz · Mar 24, 2015

Julius Vogel said:
I was reading recently about the reconstruction of the old palace/castle in central Berlin (Humboldtforum?) where they talked about the discovery of the original wood piles used to create a stable foundation as well as modern day efforts to build new buildings in central Berlin. It all sounds rather hard work. Loads of pumps and such. Although I guess a modern arch could be more of a facade built over lighter structural materials, so perhaps less of an issue to build?

I love the idea of it being fascist victory arch being a facade. I guess with enough materials you could just shore up the entire swamp right down to the bedrock and create a stable founding that way. Pumps are a good idea too but they're both horrifically expensive.

pattersonautobody · Mar 24, 2015

Even in an Axis victory, the cold war starts right afterward (remnants of USSR, Britain, US) so Germania is more of a work-in-progress. Perhaps Germania would have a half-finished fascade like North Korea's hotel.

hairysamarian · Mar 24, 2015

Assume he won the war or that he and his administration at least survive it. In that case, I doubt very much if his ego would permit him to agree to building anywhere else. After all, a Hitler decision had been made. Berlin had a mystical quality to him, or so it seems to me. Probably he would deal with a generation of engineers trying and failing, then he'd die, then the half-begun relics would stand around as curiosities for the future.

Apparently you can see relics of the project now, if you know where to look.

Blackfox5 · Mar 24, 2015

hairysamarian said:
Berlin had a mystical quality to him, or so it seems to me.

Hitler actually hated Berlin which is why he wanted to transform it with the Germania project. The issue though is that Berlin is the capital of the Reich, its largest city and the dominant one in multiple industries and categories. He's stuck with Berlin more or less.

Kaiser K · Mar 24, 2015

In a Axis Victory scenario, I've always figured that when Hitler inevitably dies in the late 1940's, whomever his successor is will either scale down or cancel the project outright; especially if a likely Cold War with the US starts.

That is how I dealt with it in my own TL.

Driftless · Mar 24, 2015

hairysamarian said:
Assume he won the war or that he and his administration at least survive it. In that case, I doubt very much if his ego would permit him to agree to building anywhere else. After all, a Hitler decision had been made. Berlin had a mystical quality to him, or so it seems to me. Probably he would deal with a generation of engineers trying and failing, then he'd die, then the half-begun relics would stand around as curiosities for the future.

Apparently you can see relics of the project now, if you know where to look.

Blackfox5 said:
Hitler actually hated Berlin which is why he wanted to transform it with the Germania project. The issue though is that Berlin is the capital of the Reich, its largest city and the dominant one in multiple industries and categories. He's stuck with Berlin more or less.

What about the other two major cities associated with the early Nazi's: Munich or Nuremburg?

Kaiser K · Mar 24, 2015

Driftless said:
What about the other two major cities associated with the early Nazi's: Munich or Nuremburg?

Both Munich and Nuremberg were also supposed to get huge facelifts as well; among other cities.

hairysamarian · Mar 24, 2015

Blackfox5 said:
Hitler actually hated Berlin which is why he wanted to transform it with the Germania project.

I've heard that too, but at the least it was love/hate. His vision clearly required Berlin at the center.

Rosencrantz · Mar 25, 2015

Kaiser K said:
In a Axis Victory scenario, I've always figured that when Hitler inevitably dies in the late 1940's, whomever his successor is will either scale down or cancel the project outright; especially if a likely Cold War with the US starts.

That is how I dealt with it in my own TL.

I thought Hitler could have made it into the 50's before someone decided to shoot the stupid prick. The ego and the meth would make him a liability eventually.

Maybe after he died they would move the project to Munich or Nuremberg though i don;t know if they're any more structurally sound.

Alternate History Geek · Mar 25, 2015

What prevents them from simply supporting everything on piers going all the way down to solid bedrock?

Kaiser K · Mar 25, 2015

Rosencrantz said:
I thought Hitler could have made it into the 50's before someone decided to shoot the stupid prick. The ego and the meth would make him a liability eventually.

Maybe after he died they would move the project to Munich or Nuremberg though i don;t know if they're any more structurally sound.

The Austrian Corporal had too many health problems, it would have been a miracle for him if his health allowed him to make it out of the 40's; especially if the Doctor kept pumping in regular drugs to him which would deteriorate said health faster.

Carl Schwamberger · Mar 25, 2015

Alternate History Geek said:
What prevents them from simply supporting everything on piers going all the way down to solid bedrock?

Nothing. It is probablly not necessary to go to bedrock. Usually stable sand, gravel, or clay mixes are reached before bedrock. Swamp muck seldom extends very far down. Modern Berlin has a lot of 'heavy' buildings on variations of the pile foundation.

Driftless · Mar 25, 2015

Carl Schwamberger said:
Nothing. It is probablly not necessary to go to bedrock. Usually stable sand, gravel, or clay mixes are reached before bedrock. Swamp muck seldom extends very far down. Modern Berlin has a lot of 'heavy' buildings on variations of the pile foundation.

Aren't there several massive WW2 Flak towers scattered around the city - too big and overbuilt to economically knockdown? Have they settled in the 70 years since their construction?

MrHaakwood · Mar 25, 2015

Driftless said:
Aren't there several massive WW2 Flak towers scattered around the city - too big and overbuilt to economically knockdown? Have they settled in the 70 years since their construction?

Not that I know of, but my old hometown has this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerbelastungskörper

machine3589 · Mar 25, 2015

Blackfox5 said:
Hitler actually hated Berlin which is why he wanted to transform it with the Germania project. The issue though is that Berlin is the capital of the Reich, its largest city and the dominant one in multiple industries and categories. He's stuck with Berlin more or less.

I don't think "hate" was the right word in the case of Berlin. IIRC Hitler thought that it looked way too "provincial" when compared to Paris or London; heck, I read somehwere that he even thought Vienna looked much more like the capital of a great empire than Berlin, which incidentally may be one of the few things that I can agree with Hitler on.

The Germania project was supposed to bring Berlin out of its "provincial" status and turn it into a "proper" capital.