A French Saarland after the End of World War I

Thomas1195

Banned
Only take Saarland. But they can actively sponsor separatists in the South as much as possible to encouraging the formation of independent states therem
 
As in Alsace and Lorraine, make French the official language and locals will learn the new language within a generation. Even today, Alsatians are surprisingly flexible when it comes to learning new languages.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
It's nothing that couldn't be figured out quickly by opening an American newspaper - his popularity wouldn't last long, and his relationship with Congress was already terrible. Plus, a look at possible replacements for the guy in the next couple years would have revealed much less internationalism.

Wilson didn't have a stroke which impaired his judgment yet, though; indeed, without his stroke, there is a possibility that Wilson would have been more willing to compromise with the U.S. Congress.

A Germany that's still demilitarized and paying reparations has little to offer Britain.

Britain can push to have these reparations and military restrictions lifted, though.

It still shows that the vicious instinct is there - and really, it would have lasted a lot longer than two years if there wasn't the danger of West Germany going red.

Wouldn't there have also been a risk of Germany going red in 1919, though? After all, even after the German Communists would have been defeated, they could have made another grab at power at some future point in time.

Because Britain in 1919 was still led by Lloyd "Hang the Kaiser!" George, who took a harder stance against Germany at Versailles then Clemenceau did. He'd happily look the other way at the time and blame France later when his positions became unpopular, just like OTL. The difference being that at least this part of the Treaty would be a fait accompli by that point, as opposed to reparations or re-armament, which required continual compliance.

Frankly, I think that you are overestimating Lloyd George's hostility towards Germany (Germany as a whole--not the German Kaiser in particular); after all, as far as I know, Lloyd George opposed France's desire to annex the Saar and Poland's desire to annex Upper Silesia without a plebiscite.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
As in Alsace and Lorraine, make French the official language and locals will learn the new language within a generation. Even today, Alsatians are surprisingly flexible when it comes to learning new languages.
The ethnic Germans in South Tyrol didn't become Italianized, though.
 
Wilson didn't have a stroke which impaired his judgment yet, though; indeed, without his stroke, there is a possibility that Wilson would have been more willing to compromise with the U.S. Congress.

Even before the stroke, his relationship with Republican Senators was terrible, and it's not reasonable to expect the US to do anything in Europe post-war one way or another. Again, especially since Wilson won't stay in office much longer, and that's entirely foreseeable because of the two term tradition.

Britain can push to have these reparations and military restrictions lifted, though.

Reparations, no they can't, they can't afford it. Military, no they can't, France+Belgium+Poland are more that sufficient to hold a gun to Germany's head and keep them down.

Wouldn't there have also been a risk of Germany going red in 1919, though? After all, even after the German Communists would have been defeated, they could have made another grab at power at some future point in time.

Germany can do whatever, it's not the same danger without a much more powerful USSR. If all else fails, France+Poland+Czechoslovakia can support the Freikorps to keep the Spartacists down. Anyways, OTL Versailles didn't consider the effects they'd have on German government with their provisions, so why should TTL's?

Frankly, I think that you are overestimating Lloyd George's hostility towards Germany (Germany as a whole--not the German Kaiser in particular); after all, as far as I know, Lloyd George opposed France's desire to annex the Saar and Poland's desire to annex Upper Silesia without a plebiscite.

Honestly, I think he could be bought with more reparations for Britain. He was very self-serving that way. He wouldn't need to be told about the deportations until later, of course.
 
Honestly, I think he could be bought with more reparations for Britain. He was very self-serving that way. He wouldn't need to be told about the deportations until later, of course.
And then what? I'm sure the news of starving Germans being turfed from their homes and sent to walk to their deaths because France wants the Saar is going to be so popular to his electorate?
 
And then what? I'm sure the news of starving Germans being turfed from their homes and sent to walk to their deaths because France wants the Saar is going to be so popular to his electorate?

Easy, he'll blame the French and say they made him do it, and at least he kept them from marching to Berlin and looting everything in their path, and goddammit, guys, the Irish are revolting, isn't that more important?! We can't attack a loyal ally while we've got a Soviet-backed rebellion on our doorstep! At least the French can be trusted to stand up to the reds!
 

CaliGuy

Banned
And then what? I'm sure the news of starving Germans being turfed from their homes and sent to walk to their deaths because France wants the Saar is going to be so popular to his electorate?
Not the Saar--the entire Rhineland. After all, France can annex the Saar without a large demographic problem afterwards.

Also, though, where exactly is France actually going to get the necessary people to repopulate the Rhineland in this TL?
 
Easy, he'll blame the French and say they made him do it, and goddammit, guys, the Irish are revolting, isn't that more important?! We can't attack a loyal ally while we've got a Soviet-backed rebellion on our doorstep! At least the French can be trusted to stand up to the reds!
Yeah, and I'm sure that'll swing so nicely with the war weary public.
 
Yeah, and I'm sure that'll swing so nicely with the war weary public.

The British war weary public? Why not, someone else's problem. Sure, the Ireland situation will be just as unwinnable as OTL, but it'll be a good temporary distraction. It's not like I'd really expect Lloyd-George to survive all of this, just enough for him to think it was a good idea at the time. What would really be necessary here would be for much harder-line French leadership than Clemenceau.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The British war weary public? Why not, someone else's problem. Sure, the Ireland situation will be just as unwinnable as OTL, but it'll be a good temporary distraction. It's not like I'd really expect Lloyd-George to survive all of this, just enough for him to think it was a good idea at the time. What would really be necessary here would be for much harder-line French leadership than Clemenceau.
So, where exactly is France going to get the people to repopulate the Rhineland from? After all, France's own population was already stagnating for a while by this point in time!
 
For it to happen, the war would have to continue in 1919 and end with Allied tanks over the Rhine, at least, if not in Berlin (if not, no other power will support French annexion of Saar). This will have a lot more impact on whether there is a WW2 than annexion of the Saar (it also means that there will be no reparation, which has its own impact)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
For it to happen, the war would have to continue in 1919 and end with Allied tanks over the Rhine, at least, if not in Berlin (if not, no other power will support French annexion of Saar).

Couldn't a U.S. President Hughes support a French annexation of the Saarland even if WWI will end in 1918, though? After all, Hughes might be less pro-national self-determination than Wilson was and might be able to win over Lloyd George in regards to this. (To my knowledge, Lloyd George was against France's annexation of the Saarland but not very passionate or caring about this; indeed, he even suggested an independent Saarland as a compromise!)

This will have a lot more impact on whether there is a WW2 than annexion of the Saar (it also means that there will be no reparation, which has its own impact)

Why exactly would a WWI which lasts into 1919 mean that there will be no reparations, though?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, if you are curious, my source for my claims here is a 1921 book by French diplomat Andre Tardieu:

http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/treatytruth/tardieu07.htm#VIII

In this book, Mr. Tardieu states that President Wilson was the main pushing force against a French annexation of the Saarland in 1919; thus, with Wilson replaced by Hughes, France might actually be able to get its way on the Saarland.
 
Why exactly would a WWI which lasts into 1919 mean that there will be no reparations, though?

Because it means that Germany will also be devastated by the war, especially its industrial heartland in the Ruhr, so it will obviously not be able to pay the sums which were requested OTL. So the Victors will have to get their compensation another way...

Edit: one of the reasons behind the reparations was just that reparations for the damage done to France and Belgium by the war (esp. as the German army was purposefully destroying the industrial infrastructures when it was retreating in late 1918, even when these had no effect on the war, like collapsing mines)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Because it means that Germany will also be devastated by the war, especially its industrial heartland in the Ruhr, so it will obviously not be able to pay the sums which were requested OTL. So the Voctors will have to get their compensation another way...
Can't the Ruhr be rebuilt, though?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
It can, but it would take time and money. Money which could not be used to pay for the damage done to France and Belgium. SO Germany would be obviously not able to pay the sums required
Very true.

However, as I have previously said, I don't think that severely damaging the Ruhr (as a result of WWI lasting into 1919) is the only way for France to acquire the Saarland in 1919; indeed, having a more sympathetic (to France) U.S. President might likewise do the trick in regards to this.
 
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