A Franco-Dutch alliance Timeline proposal

Are you interested in an timeline about a Franco-Dutch alliance


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Why? IIRC before his assassination there were plans to give Willem van Oranje those kind of titles.



I think I see this differently. The power of the Stadholders didn't decline if they were weak. It declined if they were absent. Willem IV and V were not very strong stadholders (to put it mildly) yet they became the most powerful stadholders in history! In your timeline we have Willem II surviving after he historically died at the age of 24. Let's say he survives to the age of 50. That's 26 years he can use to solidify his hold on the country. He can also transfer that power to his heir Willem III and thus the Estates don't have a Stadholderless Era to regain ground lost. If we look at history it has never happened that the Estates gained power against a sitting Stadholder. I do think that we could get a situation as in Great Britain however :)

Giving this scenario more thought I think a good reasons for the Netherlands to ally with France could very well be a prolonged Parliamentarian England given the Oranje-Stuart connection :)

With a prolonged life of William II undoublty there will be more children, who could be intermary with French nobles, and why not an daughter of Orange with the Dauphin.
All this would greatly change the balance of power in Europe ( as far as this concept was recognized at that time) The European power strugle would be even more focussed between Habsburg and Bourbone with the Dutch at the side of the Bourbone.
In OTL wars were fought in OTL Belgium, would in this time line the diplomatic differences between the two major West-European factions be battled out in the German lands? And at a consequence if the Dutch Republic is heade by a Arsitocratic family with monarchist ambitions, would it expand to the East at the expence of German Principalities and domesticly at the expence of whealth, welfare and maritime trade and maritime power?
 
one problematic point about willem II, he was a infamously rabid calvinist, who wanted to force everyone to convert to it.

seems to me that he and cromwell share their extreme religious views.

this in itself could cause quite a few butterflies.

the whole affair would also butterfly the glorious revolution(successful invasion) of the UK, and thus finance and banking might stay concentrated in the netherlands longer.
 
Why, counting on the Oranges, Grand Pensionar Johan de Witt was doiing a great job for nearly 20 year. He was the driving force of the largest war fleet of the Netherlands, understanding that only a strong fleet could protect the maritime trade empire of the Nehterlands. He only was naive? of the unscrupulus attitude of his national and international rivals.
Later Grand Pensionar Hensius was a great stateman as well.
 
interesting idea - willem II stays alive, but his rabid Calvinism alienates the moderates so much that he loses support and is ousted as stadtholder...

remember that July 1650 he attempted a coup to overthrow parliament (he died in october that year).

if it comes out that his statement that british troops would support him was a bluff, that might well explode in his face.

he will try another coup, even bigger failure and he gets kicked out or hanged together with Willem Frederik van Nassau the frisian stadtholder and his co-conspirer
 
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Suppose Johan de Witt accept, after strong negotiating the partition plans of Louis XIV. The result will be that Louis will have is much desired glory and a considrable enlargment of his realm. All this might temper furhter desire for glory. For the Dutch Republic it could mean also an enlargement. I though, after strong negotiating, Flanders (may netire Flanders including Lille and Dunkirk), Brabant, Spanish Glere and the bits and pieces of Limburg. Stratigic Namur will be most likely end up French.
Johan de Witt will probably enter some very dificult political times, after enlarging the Republic with Catholic lands and a large potential, competitor for Amsterdam, Antwerp.On the other hand far from the faith he encounterd in OTL.
You are wrong with your ideas of the border. This what i meant when I said that the Dutch republic will be a lot smaller than people here seem to think it will. the border I propose and was actualy discussed with France will be a line from Ostend towards Maastricht, with everything north of it (including Ghent, Bruges, Antwerp and Mechelen) becoming Dutch and everything south of it (including Brussels, Leuven, all of Wallonia and a large part of Flanders) becoming French. This is the border that has been discussed in negotiations between the Netherlands and France and seems to me the most reasonable border. Yes, I want the Netherands be larger, but simply put I don't don't think it is realistic. At least not in this scenario.



All this would prevent an enraged absolute monarch who devoted his life to destroy the man and country who denied his glory and conquest as happened in OTL when Johan de Witt rejected the partition porposals ( at the time not faforable for the Dutch) and he, Johan de Witt, fabricated the Triple Aliance. This Alliance denied Louis his glory and forced him at the negotiating table, to give up nearly all the military conquest his army made. The result was pure revenge; the murder on Johan de Witt, invasion of the Dutch Republic, emerge of William III of Orange who used the Dutch tresure for his personal battle agianst Louis XIV. The Dutch war followed by the Nine years war and the War of the Spanish Succession. All this wars, most likely rooted in the dening of glory of Louis XIV after the war of Devolution, left the Dutch Republic with an atronomical debt which was one of the major casues of its decline.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think Johan de Witt is the correct person for it. He did not care about the Netherlands, he was a Hollander and actualy only cared about Holland. The rest of the Netherlands was unimportant. He would not care for Antwerp, since it would be a primary rival for Amsterdam. That is why I chose Willem II. He cared only about his own power and would increase it by enlarging the Netherlands, especialy if it would mean to weaken Holland or Amsterdam, his primary opponent. If you want a larger Netherlands, you need someone like him. Also he has a pretty decent relationship with France and had opposed the treaty of Münster.



Next rival to England was the Bishop of Munster, who beside religious rivalry had serous border disputes with the Dutch Republic and was willing to solve this with war.
Münster and Bommen Berend will feature in my timeline somehow. I am not sure how, but I am think of using himto connect Lingen to the Netherlands. Not sure though because

An other potential add on to the Dutch Republic was East Frisia, whihc was during the course of the 2nd halve of the 17th century almost in a state of civil war between the Aristocratic rulers and the "civilian" State Council. The Duthc Republic had a contigent of soldiers in this County since the early 17th century, it is not dificult to chose a side or even "invite'' this Protestant County in the United Provinces.

as I have said, I don't want it to turn into a Dutch wank. Is a Dutch East-Frisa realist? Well yes it is at various points in time. During the early stagesof the Dutch revolt it was considered. It was added when Napoleon's brother was a king and it was the most likely Dutch expansion after both world wars. That said, is it realy that likely during the late 17th century? My gut feeling says, no. It isn't. So I am think of leaving it out of the Netherlands. Even though I really like it, I would say no. It is simply not realistic.
 
Why? IIRC before his assassination there were plans to give Willem van Oranje those kind of titles.
Early revolutionary Holland and post Treaty of Westphalia Holland were very different Hollands. Holland was the province that had most to lose with a powerful stadholder. It would not hand away a major title to the stadholder.



I think I see this differently. The power of the Stadholders didn't decline if they were weak. It declined if they were absent. Willem IV and V were not very strong stadholders (to put it mildly) yet they became the most powerful stadholders in history! [/QUOTE]
Willem IV, maybe, but he died too soon. Willem V? Who lost most of the Netherlands to the patriots and effectively had to flee to Nijmegen? No, he was a weak stadholder and managed to lose all his influence. In a way the same is true about his grandfather Johan Willem Friso, who never managed to become stadholder outside of Friesland. I would say that Willem van Oranje, Maurits, Frederick Hendrik, Willem II and Willem III were all very, very capable people who managed to become vey powerful as stadholders, while the line of the Frisian stadholders was incredibly weak (with king Willem I, who lost Belgium as the most cabable) and thus did not manage to gain much power, even though theoretically they could have had the most power of all the stadholders. They just weren't capable enough to use it.


Giving this scenario more thought I think a good reasons for the Netherlands to ally with France could very well be a prolonged Parliamentarian England given the Oranje-Stuart connection :)


Regarding the Orange/Stuart connection, if William II lives longer he can have more children with Mary Stuart than only William III. So, if the Stuarts fail to have heirs, a Protestant succession could be more secured.
I am not sure what to do exactly with England yet.
 
one problematic point about willem II, he was a infamously rabid calvinist, who wanted to force everyone to convert to it.

seems to me that he and cromwell share their extreme religious views.

this in itself could cause quite a few butterflies.

the whole affair would also butterfly the glorious revolution(successful invasion) of the UK, and thus finance and banking might stay concentrated in the netherlands longer.
I don't think he would enforce his protestantism too much. At least don't worry too much about it. many people did not like non Calvinists in those day. To be fair, don't expect any equal rights to catholics anytime soon. But don't worry about them being hunted down. The Dutch Republic will never be as bad as the catholic countries in its religious intollerance.
 
Ok I agree that you prefer William II, it also avery easy butterfly, he should not go hunting when he was probably contanimated with small poks.
On the othjer hand you need a counter weight against Holland and Amsterdam, other wise it will end in a grid lock or even civil war.
William II, like all aristocrats, of that time, did not had any notion of monney and were subsequently in chronic debt. Any political adventures let alone military adventures would needed money, something William II did not had.

Your remark of the French proposal to Johan de Witt, to devide the Spanish Nehterlands is correct, that was the reason Johan de Witt declined it. The reason that Grand Pensionars had mainly an eye for the Interest of Holland and Amsterdam was simple, this region economicly outclassed by far all other Provincess together. Any Stadholder or would be monarch can not neglect the importance and demands of Holland.

Suppose William II survive, how will he handel the king slauers of England, the murderers of his Father inlaw? In OTL the patricians made the mistake to anger Cromwell, and the first English war turned out to be a disaster. The English fleet, loyal to the Parlaiment defeated the heavliy neglected Dutch fleet and blockade the Dutch ports, ruining the Dutch Economy. How will Willam II handle this? Again he is an arristocrat, and most of them are only intersted in army matters (and especially cavalery) and are completly ignorant of naval matters or let alone grasp the importance of a navy with the protection of a maritime trade economy as the Dutch was.
 
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