A Franco-Dutch alliance, a rough outline for a timeline

Recently I got this idea for a timeline, based on the idea that if France and the Netherlands would form an alliance they would give Britain a run for its money. Basicly the idea would be this:

During the last years of the Dutch revolt France and the Dutch Republic were allied against Spain. In my timeline proposal this alliance would continue (which possibly means that the end of of the Dutch revolt would be postponed). So during the late 17th century and the early 18th century the Netherlands and France remain allies. This means that France will not be able to go for their desired Rhine border. Since the Netherlands is allied to France, France does not need a Rhine border as its northern border is secured. Since its eastern border consists of a divided German/HRE, Switserland and a divided Italy, its eastern border is also secure. The only European threat for France is its Southern Border with Spain, but as Spain effectively collapsed during the late 17th/early 18th century (several times actualy), it is not terribly dangerous. Anyway France's borders are secure, so it can focus (at least partly) on its colonial empire. It will not solely focus on its colonial empire and will try to expand somewhat in Europe, but less than OTL.

One result of the Franco-Dutch alliance will be that the Netherlands and France divide the Southern Netherlands among themselves. I am not entirely certain exactly how. I would realy like a nice division in which France gains Wallonia and Luxemburg, while the Netherlands gain the Dutch speaking parts, but I consider this completely unrealistic and an anachronistic way of thinking, so France will probably get a decent part of the Flemish coast, although the big Flemish cities (Bruges, Ostend, Ghent, Antwerp) will be Dutch. Dunkirk, Kortrijk, Ypres will probably be French. Nieuwpoort, no idea. I would like to see it Dutch, if only because of 1600.

Since a Franco Dutch alliances would have a stronger navy than England (actualy the Dutch republic alone was stronger, but if you combine it with the French navy, the English are in real trouble), they manage throughout the 17th and 18th century to remove the English out of India (I realy like a French India, it is such a nice butterfly) and Indonesia/Malaysia (the English only had 2 major colonies there anyway).

The French and the Dutch also would be able to kick the English out of New England. Roughly the Dutch gain Conecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusets, while France gains Maine, new Hampshire and Vermont. My idea is that, although the English settlers are unhappy at forst, they are in the end generaly satisfied that they are relatively left alone by the Dutch and don't mind being ruled by another Calvinist country, as long as they can keep their distinct culture. So they will not assimilate into Dutchmen, but they will keep a new English identity, but they are ruled by the Netherlands. I realise I probably need some changes in North American colonisation by France and the Netherlands for this to happen. So I am open to ideas to make this happen.

During the late 18th/19th century France starts to colonise Northern Africa and will try to turn Egypt into either a colony or a vasal state, so it can create the suez canal to gain easy access to its major colony in India.

England keeps its southern North-American colonies and gains some major western African colonies (it needs some slaves for all those plantations after all) and in the 19th century it will start to colonise indo-China (not unlike France did OTL).

So, what do you think of this? Any ideas? What will be the problems of this timeline I need to solve? Which parts are completely unrealistic and need to change? What interesting addition could I add? Should I turn this into an actual timeline? Would you read it if I did? Would you want to help? Should I forget the entire idea and focus on something more important, like solving world hunger? Do you have any ideas to solve world hunger?
 
I don't really know about anything else, but one of the reason why France wanted the Spanish Netherlands was for Antwerp, as France lacked a good seaport that Antwerp would be for France. So the Netherlands getting Antwerp might be difficult (maybe a codominion or something like that).
 
Whats to stop the french from annexing the Netherlands once they have been isolated from any allies (England Spain and Austria)?
 
I don't really know about anything else, but one of the reason why France wanted the Spanish Netherlands was for Antwerp, as France lacked a good seaport that Antwerp would be for France. So the Netherlands getting Antwerp might be difficult (maybe a codominion or something like that).

Well, if I use an extended Eighty* year war as POD, that means that Antwerp would probably end up Dutch at the end of the war as that was the major Dutch target in the last years of the war. If the war had continued it probably ended up Dutch. I assume that even with a Dutch Antwerp France would be interested in (parts of) the Southern Netherlands.

So to make it clear: The Dutch revolt continues until after 1648 (perhaps because of the influence of Willem II?). The Netherlands take Antwerp and possibly some other cities in the Southern Netherlands (like Roermond and Venlo, maybe some cities in northern Flanders or around Antwerp). Spain does manage to keep the rest of the Southern Netherlands. Because the continuation of the war the Netherlands and France remain allied after the war.

At a later stage(s) the Netherlands and France actualy do manage to capture the rest of the Southern Netherlands (if needed in more than 1 war), France (and the Netherlands) is partly motivated by reducing the Spanish threat to the north (or the south for the Netherlands).

* which means it would be longer than 80 year, so it would need a new name

Whats to stop the french from annexing the Netherlands once they have been isolated from any allies (England Spain and Austria)?
One, because the Netherlands and France are allied and you don't attack allies. It is bad for your reputation.
Two, because a friendly Netherlands is more useful for France than a conquered Netherlands.
Three, because France doesn't need to conquer the Netherlands.
Four, because France is more focused on its colonies (like India) in this timeline and less on expansion in Europe.
 
One, because the Netherlands and France are allied and you don't attack allies. It is bad for your reputation.
Two, because a friendly Netherlands is more useful for France than a conquered Netherlands.
Three, because France doesn't need to conquer the Netherlands.
Four, because France is more focused on its colonies (like India) in this timeline and less on expansion in Europe.
Someone should have told that to Napoleon.

Unfortunately I don't think this is doable, not in any lasting way at least. France and The Netherlands have conflicting interests. Both of them are trying to 'naturally' expand into the same territory, and that is going to cause friction between them. France isn't going to just give up their dreams of a Rhine Border because some little German Upstarts happen to be there and allied with them, that's not how National Interests work.

There are also competing interests not dealing with continental issues. France and The Netherlands were already trading rivals in our Timeline, and that was without a vastly more Naval Oriented France. If France is now becoming the major colonial power, with England relegated to a side show, then The Dutch are their primary Rival in that arena. Trading Disputes led to France and England teaming up against the Dutch. In this situation you'll see England and the Dutch teaming up against the French.

France and The Netherlands will maintain their alliance only so long as they have either a massive common rival or no immediately conflicting ambitions. Them successfully partitioning the Spanish Netherlands between them completely removes their only common Rival from the board and also means that those conflicting interests just got a lot more important.

There's a reason the Dutch kept helping Spain keep the French out of the Southern Netherlands.
 
Personaly i believe that French natural border nonsense was just an excuse for territorial expansion. That idea (which btw was the reason France had to fight the rest of Europe in the 17th and 18th century and caused more problems for France than it would have solved), I believe, was conceived somewhere in the late 17th century, or at least that was the time when it started to gain prominence. If you can make France focus somewhere else, i believe that the Netherlands and France can be allies.
 
"During the last years of the Dutch revolt France and the Dutch Republic were allied against Spain. In my timeline proposal this alliance would continue (which possibly means that the end of of the Dutch revolt would be postponed). So during the late 17th century and the early 18th century the Netherlands and France remain allies."

This is possible, if Henry of Navarre remains Calvinist and,at the cost of a prolonged French war of relegion in the 16th century become King of France. In search of allies the revolting Habsburge Provinces in the North and the Protestant King find themself in their fight against Spain.

"This means that France will not be able to go for their desired Rhine border. Since the Netherlands is allied to France, France does not need a Rhine border as its northern border is secured. Since its eastern border consists of a divided German/HRE, Switserland and a divided Italy, its eastern border is also secure. The only European threat for France is its Southern Border with Spain, but as Spain effectively collapsed during the late 17th/early 18th century (several times actualy), it is not terribly dangerous. Anyway France's borders are secure, so it can focus (at least partly) on its colonial empire. It will not solely focus on its colonial empire and will try to expand somewhat in Europe, but less than OTL."

The French desire for a Rhine border is and idea from the late 18th and 19th century, it did not exsist in the 16ht or 17th century.
Nearly all (west) European wars had a dynastic back ground not an geo political. War fro teritorial expansian where rare and in case of Franche under Louis XIV there were dinastical claims in order to annex teritory. An Franco Dutch aliance will not prevent this kind of wars, only limited.


"One result of the Franco-Dutch alliance will be that the Netherlands and France divide the Southern Netherlands among themselves. I am not entirely certain exactly how. I would realy like a nice division in which France gains Wallonia and Luxemburg, while the Netherlands gain the Dutch speaking parts, but I consider this completely unrealistic and an anachronistic way of thinking, so France will probably get a decent part of the Flemish coast, although the big Flemish cities (Bruges, Ostend, Ghent, Antwerp) will be Dutch. Dunkirk, Kortrijk, Ypres will probably be French. Nieuwpoort, no idea. I would like to see it Dutch, if only because of 1600."

Waloon Flemish contradictions were not, not an issue before the late 19th century.
There were partition plans made during the Dutch Revolt/Franco Spanish war. One plan was roughly the Dutch Republic would get: Brabant, Flandres, Limbourg and Franche would get Arras, Hainout, Chambrai and Luxembourg.

"The French and the Dutch also would be able to kick the English out of New England. Roughly the Dutch gain Conecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusets, while France gains Maine, new Hampshire and Vermont. My idea is that, although the English settlers are unhappy at forst, they are in the end generaly satisfied that they are relatively left alone by the Dutch and don't mind being ruled by another Calvinist country, as long as they can keep their distinct culture. So they will not assimilate into Dutchmen, but they will keep a new English identity, but they are ruled by the Netherlands. I realise I probably need some changes in North American colonisation by France and the Netherlands for this to happen. So I am open to ideas to make this happen."

Why would this happen? Franche was not much interested in colonisation and the Merchantile Dutch Republic even less. Colonisations were private enterprisess and if they were more or less controled by the 'state' it was to sent un desired citizens. I do not think there would be common interst to fight an other European power on the North Amercan continent.

Alliances in Europe were fluid and changed often.

But I like the idea
 
Last edited:
Personaly i believe that French natural border nonsense was just an excuse for territorial expansion. That idea (which btw was the reason France had to fight the rest of Europe in the 17th and 18th century and caused more problems for France than it would have solved), I believe, was conceived somewhere in the late 17th century, or at least that was the time when it started to gain prominence. If you can make France focus somewhere else, i believe that the Netherlands and France can be allies.
Focus on where?
 
It seems that the POD needs to lead to a France which is more interested in overseas expansion than continental might. Considering France's previous lacklustre efforts at a navy this would lead to a greater interest in cooperation with the Dutch (and in getting Antwerpen unfortunately). The best bet for an alliance would seem to be during the preparations for the war of devolution by making smaller claims.

This will also lead to another great change. If France and the Netherlands cooperate the Glorious Revolution will certainly not happen in the same way it happened during OTL.

You get bonus points for changing 1672 in a "wonderjaar" for the Dutch republic.

I'll be following this timeline if you decide to go through with it.
 
Last edited:

HJ Tulp

Donor
One of the POD's could be that the mailman does not discover Willem II's army as it moves to take Amsterdam by suprise in 1650. They take Amsterdam and butterflies make sure that the Stadholder doesn't die of smallpox. Together with the King of France he divides the Spanish Netherlands and voila: Franco-Dutch Alliance.

Ofcourse this might be to far a long to temper Frances wishes for the Rhine though.
 
I'd say North America and India. Seems like the best bet. And I believe Pompejus already suggested that.
Whit what navy? Like Imladrik already say France lack good seaport, owning Antwerp would help a lot.
For France Europe as always been more valuable then colonies. They had troubles settling their colonies, I can't see why France would focus on them.
 
Last edited:
Whit what navy? Like Imladrik already say France lack good seaport, owning Antwerp would help a lot.
For France Europe as always been more valuable then colonies. They had troubles settling their colonies, I can't see why France would focus on them.


Considering Louis XIV was called the Sun King that alone seems reason enough to conquer some tropical paradise :p

In all seriousness however, with Spain beaten and a friendly northern neighbour France's greatest threat was probably England. During the period they already had nominal control over the inner regions of North America and Louis XIV was actively expanding the population the colonies.

Maybe have the Iroquois attack on Montreal actively sponsored by the British. This means greater succes and a (temporary) loss of the territory. Angered and humiliated by this loss and by Englands interference the French focus on North America and on getting revenge on England.
 
Considering Louis XIV was called the Sun King that alone seems reason enough to conquer some tropical paradise :p

In all seriousness however, with Spain beaten and a friendly northern neighbour France's greatest threat was probably England. During the period they already had nominal control over the inner regions of North America and Louis XIV was actively expanding the population the colonies.

Maybe have the Iroquois attack on Montreal actively sponsored by the British. This means greater succes and a (temporary) loss of the territory. Angered and humiliated by this loss and by Englands interference the French focus on North America and on getting revenge on England.
France can always get back colonies by winning in Europe.
 
France can always get back colonies by winning in Europe.

But the only ones to win them back from are the British and their allies. Thus they'd have to defeat the British in some way. To defeat the British you need a fleet, which brings us back to the premise of this thread.
 
Top