A fractured HRE (a map of a WI)

[LordKalvan]

good point. I'll reword that before I post this bit in the TL forum.

You're welcome. I've half an idea in mind that Boniface has bits of the De Bello Gallico read to him by his curiales every night. And the Roman revival in Italy should have some side effects.

Well he'd probably be talking to quite a few (either directly or through representatives, etc.). IIRC the Houehstaufens having one line in Saxony and another in Upper Lorraine and they'll be in heavy talks with the Emperor too, along with our friends in Holland and Friesland.

It would be interesting to review the political situation in Germany. Now the emperor is certainly in good relations with the cities. And it's quite likely that the Houenstaufen (who got Lorraine, now I remember. As well as I remember the claim of teh Canossas on that duchy ). I cannot believe he's the darling of every great house. The Welf should hold Bavaria, Styria and Carinthia; and effectively control the eastern approaches to Italy. This might make me think that they could be trying to play their own game between Henry and Boniface, in particular if the shit hits the fan I do wonder who holds Franconia and Brandenburg. Rhenania-Palatinate should be the hold of the Prince-Bishops, and once again they would be pro-Henry. Who has Franconia? and remember that Floris of Holland married the sister of Boniface, and is family. And another sister has become (for the second time ) queen of Denmark. There might be possibilities there. And in the south-west there are the du Maurienne looking at the Franche Comtee..

Yes he should. Got any recommendations?

This time I've to pass. Should be something nice, maybe count of Ba'albek or similar

You're quite right in that this could become a very bad mistake for him but if it is a short term thing and he travels back to Sicily often I think he'll be okay. But you are right the capital will need to move back to Sicily permanently at some point. I was thinking of having Roger rebuild Messina (heavily destroyed during the resulting siege and fire) into a new capital of Sicily. Being in Sicily a good thing but so close to the southern tip of the boot of Italy that a good reminder that the King isn't that far away. However in sticking to the Vader analogy of a sort Messina [where he got all burned] would be a place he'd build up but never actually set a foot there again [like Tatooine for Anakin]. It'd be his descendants who'd rule from there.

This is a nice idea. Although usually Sicily is ruled from Syracuse or Palermo

Oh quite a lot. At first he wasn't too upset as he was kicking some upstart French scum around from messing around in the Empire, but as reports and news of events in Toulouse filter north...well the desire to get in the action only gets stronger as it were.

Quite obvious. However, the curse of German emperors is that as soon as they stir from the heartlands, there is some revolt brewing

Ah wanting a bit of the Curthose in the girl as well eh? Well he's in there too and that is part of what I've got planned.

You might involve the Black Spyder too, he's been out of the scene for some time now. Which could also lead to claims of sorcery and satanic intervention once the deed is accomplished

It would be nice to have the young dauphin taken home on the 1st of May. There is still a lot of Celtic lore in Northern France, and I'd be surprised if the 1st May would not work for the Normans too.

See this is why I need you around to make sure I don't loose sight of things like this.



I like this a lot.

Thank you, on both counts

To the second he already did that [the renouncing bit] when he first garnered the support of Boniface against Louis VI. As for Septamania and Narbonne would that then be part of the Empire? Or would it still be part of France?

I'm open to the idea I just need some more of the details.

Well, yes. Obviously he had to relinquish his claim to Provence.The status of Septimania (aka the Gothic marches) is slightly more ambiguous. The marches were (formally) ceded to the Visigoths in 462. It might be argued (bread and butter for a barely decent lawyer) that the Visigoths were settled as foederati, and therefore the marches were still part of the Roman province. When the dust settled after the division of the Charlemagne empire, the border of the kingdom of Arles was at the Rhone. OTOH, there is no significant difference in terms of language and traditions between the west and the east of the Rhone (all part of the Pays d'Oc). I think you got the gist: Septimania has become a part of the empire.

Ah nothing like a fait accompli, no?

A nice, clean example of imperial police action

That's what I had in mind. The County would be bought off by Duke Godfrey and be administrated and protected by the Patarene Knights/Knights of St. Stephen. All in protected the pilgrims to the Holy Land of course.

Of course, the protection of the worthy pilgrims is the main reasons for this rearrangement, there cannot be any doubt However, the good Godfrey can also look with satisfaction to the acquisition of a nice navy and some faithful retainers

Yes quite so. Lots of good choices of fine meat...er, land that Bertrand could pick up. If he plays nice I suppose.

Bertrand?? I suppose that a leopard would be more likely to loose his spots There is a telling passage in the Memoirs of Sir Tedice :
"Today a mercenary was arrested by a patrol, while riding toward the north.
He was carrying an unsigned letter addressed to the Archbishop of Mainz. A libellous account of the events of the last few weeks, larded with unfounded accusations of usurpation of Imperial prerogatives by the Comes Palatinus. I brought this base libel to lord Boniface, who read it and laughed, before throwing it into the fire, without any comments. The mercenary has been executed, and the patrols have been reinforced".

Provence is a Duchy? I thought is was a County [split between Atto (who got the south) and the du Mariennes (who got the north above the Durance River - the old County of Forrisque or some such)]?

Actually you're right, partially at least. There was a county of Provence, and there were also the Marches of Provence, beyond the Durance. I might reconsider: let Atto get the county of Provence, while Red-hand gets the marches of Provence. I think it was also quite unpolitic to annex both Provence and Septimania to the kingdom of Italy: they can stay (for now at least) in the kingdom of Arles

I like the title and if those territories are included in the Empire I'm game for it, but I bet Henry V is not going to be a happy man about it.

Well, again a bit of lawyering: as Comes Palatinus Italiae it would be arguable that in the absence of the emperor Boniface should have the right to dispose of these lands, and create new feaudataries. I do agree that Henry will be quite pissed off, but you cannot make everyone happy

Let's just say he is buttering up the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem who is the leading candidate to be the next Pope [and frankly Pascall II is not a young chicken anymore]. Godfrey wants a crown and only the Pope or the Emperor can bestow that title (in Catholic lands of course).

Agreed, but the position of Hadramatus is quite strategic

Ah I see we have a similar thought. I've got an idea on how I'm going to do it but yes Nasrallah is going to be Godfrey's first Muslim vassal [large landed] lord. Homs is important enough to be of note but not so big as to be a rich reward that he'd be inclined to give over to a more powerful vassal.

Yeah, we're quite in agreement as usual whenever Byzantium is not in play

Now, now, now...okay it is true I'm a Byzantinophile at heart. I can't help it.

See above

I like it. Especially the fleecing of tourists.

In line with OTL (where pope Alexander sent one of his best rings to the doge authorizing the start of the marriage tradition) you might have Paschal send a ring to the doge, in token of thanks for the victory over the heretics. The ceremony should be on the feast day of St. Nicholas, protector of sailors (should be the 6 or 7 December, and so quite timely)

 

[Shadow Knight]

You're welcome. I've half an idea in mind that Boniface has bits of the De Bello Gallico read to him by his curiales every night. And the Roman revival in Italy should have some side effects.

LOL

You know it should. Do you think our good Comes has opened any old [or maybe built new] Roman style theaters?

It would be interesting to review the political situation in Germany. Now the emperor is certainly in good relations with the cities. And it's quite likely that the Houenstaufen (who got Lorraine, now I remember. As well as I remember the claim of teh Canossas on that duchy ). I cannot believe he's the darling of every great house. The Welf should hold Bavaria, Styria and Carinthia; and effectively control the eastern approaches to Italy. This might make me think that they could be trying to play their own game between Henry and Boniface, in particular if the shit hits the fan I do wonder who holds Franconia and Brandenburg. Rhenania-Palatinate should be the hold of the Prince-Bishops, and once again they would be pro-Henry. Who has Franconia? and remember that Floris of Holland married the sister of Boniface, and is family. And another sister has become (for the second time ) queen of Denmark. There might be possibilities there. And in the south-west there are the du Maurienne looking at the Franche Comtee..

Well IIRC this is the breakdown of the Empire:

Kingdom of Germany - (I include Denmark in Germany as Denmark is so far under the thumb of the Emperor at the moment that its crown is only worth the actual material it is made of and has little power in of itself)
County of Holland: Floris
Friesland: A collection of small counties, not a Duchy
Duchy of Lower Lorraine: Frederick II Hohenstaufen
Duchy of Upper Lorraine: Simon (House of Metz)
Duchy of Saxony: Conrad Hohenstaufen
Duchy of Schleswig: Erik II King of Denmark
Duchy of South Jutland: Stephen of Innsbruck (a cousin of the Welfs of Bavaria)
Duchy of North Jutland: Was given over to the Count of Horǽ (UNK)
Duchy of Slavinia: Henry V (Emperor)
Pommerania is either Imperial fiefs, Church lands, or lands held by the Teutonic Knights.
The Duchy of Franconia (East and West): Henry V (Emperor) [Once his son reaches past those troubled years of youth will be named Duke of East Franconia]
Thuringia: Like Friesland this is not a Duchy but a collection of small counties.
The Duchy of Swabia: Conrad II (Henry V's nephew who inherited from his father Conrad II) [I had mentioned that Henry IV had given it to his son Conrad II but I never mentioned if he stripped it of him or not when he rebelled against his father...so it may be another Duchy under Henry V's belt too. Thoughts?]
Duchy of Bavaria: Welf I (or possibly Welf II by now)
Duchy of Carinthia: Welf I (or possibly Welf II by now)
Duchy of Bohemia: Borivoj II Přemyslid [I haven't covered much of what has been happening in Bohemia and their support to the emperors - a gross misjudgment on my part but frankly I can't be everywhere...]

Kingdom of Italy -
Brennermark: Henry I (Welf)
Duchy of Lombardy: Boniface Canossa
Tuscany: Boniface Canossa
Romagna: Boniface Canossa
March of Ancona: Sigfriedo Canossa (son of Godfrey - he's ten years old and a regency was set up for these lands until his majority [His father is regent I would suppose as they were his lands before he granted them to his son])
Duchy of Spoleto: Godfrey 'the Tall' Canossa

Kingdom of Arles [Burgundy] -
Aside from the lands held by the Mauriennes (County of Savoy, the lands of northern Provence) and Atto's County of Provence there is as Count of (Imperial) Burgundy Conrad II and Stephen I was given the County of Macon. The rest I've got no idea. I assume it would be historical or had been turned over to the emperor or Conrad II.
------------------

There is some serious, if delicate, political intrigue in the Empire. The Emperor has enough power on his own through his own lands (and those he holds for his nephew) to wield considerable power to enforce his will. The Hohenstaufens are a bedrock of support which ensures a peaceful empire (for the most part) as are the Přemyslids in Bohemia.

The other two great families the Canossas and the Welfs are loyal but not as loyal as the Emperor would wish. With the Welfs in control of the southeast of the Empire and their fingers in Denmark they play an patient game with the Emperor for political power within the Empire. The Canossas may not hold the crown of Italy but for all intensive purposes rule it as theirs. The Emperor knows that if he tries to dictate too much south he'd be in danger of losing it. Especially as the fence sitters of the Welf control the passes in the north and north east could tilt away from the Emperor and that would not be good to say the least.

This time I've to pass. Should be something nice, maybe count of Ba'albek or similar

Okay that was what I was thinking too. Ba'albek would be crucial to the line from Tripolis to Damascus and would be a worthy land for him.

This is a nice idea. Although usually Sicily is ruled from Syracuse or Palermo

Yeah but I can just see this Roger II doing something like that.

Quite obvious. However, the curse of German emperors is that as soon as they stir from the heartlands, there is some revolt brewing

Quite so but I cannot divine yet from where...

You might involve the Black Spyder too, he's been out of the scene for some time now. Which could also lead to claims of sorcery and satanic intervention once the deed is accomplished

Hmm...well I was thinking of putting the whole blame on events on France on him but that'd just smack of something from a Bond flick (cool but so unlikely as to be ASB). A scheme by the Black Spider to free the young Dauhpin...yeah I like that.

It would be nice to have the young dauphin taken home on the 1st of May. There is still a lot of Celtic lore in Northern France, and I'd be surprised if the 1st May would not work for the Normans too.

Hmmm...poignant. I might just have to do that.

Thank you, on both counts

You're welcome.

Well, yes. Obviously he had to relinquish his claim to Provence.The status of Septimania (aka the Gothic marches) is slightly more ambiguous. The marches were (formally) ceded to the Visigoths in 462. It might be argued (bread and butter for a barely decent lawyer) that the Visigoths were settled as foederati, and therefore the marches were still part of the Roman province. When the dust settled after the division of the Charlemagne empire, the border of the kingdom of Arles was at the Rhone. OTOH, there is no significant difference in terms of language and traditions between the west and the east of the Rhone (all part of the Pays d'Oc). I think you got the gist: Septimania has become a part of the empire.

"Septimania has become a part of the empire". LOL I just love that line. I think I'm going to use it.

A nice, clean example of imperial police action

LOL

Of course, the protection of the worthy pilgrims is the main reasons for this rearrangement, there cannot be any doubt However, the good Godfrey can also look with satisfaction to the acquisition of a nice navy and some faithful retainers

Yeah funny how that works out like that.

Bertrand?? I suppose that a leopard would be more likely to loose his spots There is a telling passage in the Memoirs of Sir Tedice :
"Today a mercenary was arrested by a patrol, while riding toward the north.
He was carrying an unsigned letter addressed to the Archbishop of Mainz. A libellous account of the events of the last few weeks, larded with unfounded accusations of usurpation of Imperial prerogatives by the Comes Palatinus. I brought this base libel to lord Boniface, who read it and laughed, before throwing it into the fire, without any comments. The mercenary has been executed, and the patrols have been reinforced".

Yep. It seems France is being offered up as the next course at the feast, eh?

Hmm...ah Sir Tedice got to love his memoirs.

Actually you're right, partially at least. There was a county of Provence, and there were also the Marches of Provence, beyond the Durance. I might reconsider: let Atto get the county of Provence, while Red-hand gets the marches of Provence. I think it was also quite unpolitic to annex both Provence and Septimania to the kingdom of Italy: they can stay (for now at least) in the kingdom of Arles

I think I'm going to leave it where Atto gets Provence south of the Durance and the old County of Foralquier (Provence north of the Durance) goes to the 'Red-Hand'. As the Kingdom of Arles has the Emperor in direct regency for his nephew, Conrad II, I am not sure Boniface would muck around too much with the political structure there as that would draw Imperial attention. Not the good kind either. The Kingdom of Arles is such a mess...

Well, again a bit of lawyering: as Comes Palatinus Italiae it would be arguable that in the absence of the emperor Boniface should have the right to dispose of these lands, and create new feaudataries. I do agree that Henry will be quite pissed off, but you cannot make everyone happy

Oh I agree...

Agreed, but the position of Hadramatus is quite strategic

It is a risk but one I think he'd take. The possible reward is too great and by giving it over to the knights he is at least assured that competent men will be garrisoning.

Yeah, we're quite in agreement as usual whenever Byzantium is not in play

See above

In line with OTL (where pope Alexander sent one of his best rings to the doge authorizing the start of the marriage tradition) you might have Paschal send a ring to the doge, in token of thanks for the victory over the heretics. The ceremony should be on the feast day of St. Nicholas, protector of sailors (should be the 6 or 7 December, and so quite timely)

Oooh that does sound good.

 

[LordKalvan]

LOL

You know it should. Do you think our good Comes has opened any old [or maybe built new] Roman style theaters?

You should know better than bait me

From a manuscript found in the archives of Pavia:
On the day of the Resurrection of the Saviour, in the year of the Lord 1209, the Italian host was assembled in the Roman theater of Arelatum, and Lord Boniface, sir Tedice and a pride of other lords knelt in front on an altar where three archbishops and a score and ten of canons celebrated the Holy Mass. And after the lords all had partaken of the Body of Our Lord, and the Papal Legate had blessed the eagles of the legions, lord Boniface rose and had lord Tedice raise too, and presented him to the legion saying: "Ecce Dux Bellorum Galliae, ecce fidelissimum miles, ecce comes Narbonae". And the legionarii shouted three times the name of sir Tedice, and stroke ther shield with their mailed fist. But not all the lords still kneeling in the arena joined in this ovation. After two days of rejoicing, the legion turned back toward Tolosa; but six centuries rode with Lord Boniface and lord Tedice toward Narbona. And the eagles were brought in front of them, with an herald shouting "Rejoice, people of Occitania, because the eagles have returned. Rejoice, people of Occitania, because I bring you the peace of the Empire.

Well IIRC this is the breakdown of the Empire:

Talk about poignant lines

Kingdom of Germany - (I include Denmark in Germany as Denmark is so far under the thumb of the Emperor at the moment that its crown is only worth the actual material it is made of and has little power in of itself)
County of Holland: Floris
Friesland: A collection of small counties, not a Duchy
Duchy of Lower Lorraine: Frederick II Hohenstaufen
Duchy of Upper Lorraine: Simon (House of Metz)
Duchy of Saxony: Conrad Hohenstaufen
Duchy of Schleswig: Erik II King of Denmark
Duchy of South Jutland: Stephen of Innsbruck (a cousin of the Welfs of Bavaria)
Duchy of North Jutland: Was given over to the Count of Horǽ (UNK)
Duchy of Slavinia: Henry V (Emperor)
Pommerania is either Imperial fiefs, Church lands, or lands held by the Teutonic Knights.
The Duchy of Franconia (East and West): Henry V (Emperor) [Once his son reaches past those troubled years of youth will be named Duke of East Franconia]
Thuringia: Like Friesland this is not a Duchy but a collection of small counties.
The Duchy of Swabia: Conrad II (Henry V's nephew who inherited from his father Conrad II) [I had mentioned that Henry IV had given it to his son Conrad II but I never mentioned if he stripped it of him or not when he rebelled against his father...so it may be another Duchy under Henry V's belt too. Thoughts?]
Duchy of Bavaria: Welf I (or possibly Welf II by now)
Duchy of Carinthia: Welf I (or possibly Welf II by now)
Duchy of Bohemia: Borivoj II Přemyslid [I haven't covered much of what has been happening in Bohemia and their support to the emperors - a gross misjudgment on my part but frankly I can't be everywhere...]

Kingdom of Italy -
Brennermark: Henry I (Welf)
Duchy of Lombardy: Boniface Canossa
Tuscany: Boniface Canossa
Romagna: Boniface Canossa
March of Ancona: Sigfriedo Canossa (son of Godfrey - he's ten years old and a regency was set up for these lands until his majority [His father is regent I would suppose as they were his lands before he granted them to his son])
Duchy of Spoleto: Godfrey 'the Tall' Canossa

Kingdom of Arles [Burgundy] -
Aside from the lands held by the Mauriennes (County of Savoy, the lands of northern Provence) and Atto's County of Provence there is as Count of (Imperial) Burgundy Conrad II and Stephen I was given the County of Macon. The rest I've got no idea. I assume it would be historical or had been turned over to the emperor or Conrad II.
------------------

There is some serious, if delicate, political intrigue in the Empire. The Emperor has enough power on his own through his own lands (and those he holds for his nephew) to wield considerable power to enforce his will. The Hohenstaufens are a bedrock of support which ensures a peaceful empire (for the most part) as are the Přemyslids in Bohemia.

The other two great families the Canossas and the Welfs are loyal but not as loyal as the Emperor would wish. With the Welfs in control of the southeast of the Empire and their fingers in Denmark they play an patient game with the Emperor for political power within the Empire. The Canossas may not hold the crown of Italy but for all intensive purposes rule it as theirs. The Emperor knows that if he tries to dictate too much south he'd be in danger of losing it. Especially as the fence sitters of the Welf control the passes in the north and north east could tilt away from the Emperor and that would not be good to say the least.

This is a good picture, but your comments might be too optimistic. Denmark for one is certainly unhappy. The Houenstaufen might be supportive (in this particular moment), but calling them "the bedrock of the empire" might be too much and the Welfs are notorious for their pride and their treacherousness. Just let this school of piranhas smell weakness, and they will go into a frenzy. Not to mention that both Denmark and Holland have family ties with Boniface.

Okay that was what I was thinking too. Ba'albek would be crucial to the line from Tripolis to Damascus and would be a worthy land for him.

Ba'albek it is

Yeah but I can just see this Roger II doing something like that.

Possible

Hmm...well I was thinking of putting the whole blame on events on France on him but that'd just smack of something from a Bond flick (cool but so unlikely as to be ASB). A scheme by the Black Spider to free the young Dauhpin...yeah I like that.

Agreed that put all this chain of events on the shoulder of the Black Spider is too much (even if I can see his messengers sowing dissensions among the French lords still loyal to Louis)

Hmmm...poignant. I might just have to do that.

Dressed in white, and crowned with a garland of wild flowers

"Septimania has become a part of the empire". LOL I just love that line. I think I'm going to use it.

Rejoice people of Septimania: I bring you the peace of the empire

Yeah funny how that works out like that.

Terry Pratchett would say that it is a side effect of the decay of narrativium

Yep. It seems France is being offered up as the next course at the feast, eh?

The carving of France *droooool*

Hmm...ah Sir Tedice got to love his memoirs.

From the memoirs of Sir Tedice, Warden oof the Gothic Marches:
"My Lord Boniface made me too great an honour by bestowing titles and lands over my unworthy person. By the Wounds of Our Savior I swear that my house will be always true and faitful to house Canossa, through thick and thin. And in token thereof I will raise a new legion, Legio Sexta Gothica, from my new lands in Occitania, and it shall be the shield of Italy in the west

I think I'm going to leave it where Atto gets Provence south of the Durance and the old County of Foralquier (Provence north of the Durance) goes to the 'Red-Hand'. As the Kingdom of Arles has the Emperor in direct regency for his nephew, Conrad II, I am not sure Boniface would muck around too much with the political structure there as that would draw Imperial attention. Not the good kind either. The Kingdom of Arles is such a mess...

Arles was quite a mess in OTL too. ITTL there has been some housecleaning

It is a risk but one I think he'd take. The possible reward is too great and by giving it over to the knights he is at least assured that competent men will be garrisoning.

Done

Oooh that does sound good.

You're too kind

 

[Shadow Knight]

You should know better than bait me

From a manuscript found in the archives of Pavia:
On the day of the Resurrection of the Saviour, in the year of the Lord 1209, the Italian host was assembled in the Roman theater of Arelatum, and Lord Boniface, sir Tedice and a pride of other lords knelt in front on an altar where three archbishops and a score and ten of canons celebrated the Holy Mass. And after the lords all had partaken of the Body of Our Lord, and the Papal Legate had blessed the eagles of the legions, lord Boniface rose and had lord Tedice raise too, and presented him to the legion saying: "Ecce Dux Bellorum Galliae, ecce fidelissimum miles, ecce comes Narbonae". And the legionarii shouted three times the name of sir Tedice, and stroke ther shield with their mailed fist. But not all the lords still kneeling in the arena joined in this ovation. After two days of rejoicing, the legion turned back toward Tolosa; but six centuries rode with Lord Boniface and lord Tedice toward Narbona. And the eagles were brought in front of them, with an herald shouting "Rejoice, people of Occitania, because the eagles have returned. Rejoice, people of Occitania, because I bring you the peace of the Empire.

I like. I like it a lot.

Talk about poignant lines

Well sadly it wasn't intentional but true nonetheless.

This is a good picture, but your comments might be too optimistic. Denmark for one is certainly unhappy. The Houenstaufen might be supportive (in this particular moment), but calling them "the bedrock of the empire" might be too much and the Welfs are notorious for their pride and their treacherousness. Just let this school of piranhas smell weakness, and they will go into a frenzy. Not to mention that both Denmark and Holland have family ties with Boniface.

Denmark is for sure quite unhappy...to a certain level. The peasants don't really care for the most part, and as improved imperial infrastructure (roads, canals, and expanded harbors) are built things improve for them a bit. The merchants in the trade cities are (for the most part) active supporters of the Emperor. The simplified trade duties and laws (all part of the Imperial Charter), and the ability to trade relatively freely within the borders of the Empire make them ardent supporter. The remaining Danish nobility though that flocks around King Erik II most certainly are not supportive and are very restive. However with the gelding of Danish nobles in the civil war, several prominent nobles having the backing of the Emperor, Imperial garrisons, redistricting of territory makes what he and his supporters do very limited right now.

Well you are right in that saying they are the bedrock of the Empire is a bit optimistic but it is the way Henry V sees it. The Hohenstaufens are loyal (in as much as they can be) and know they have far more to gain [right now] by being so. The Welfs are certainly treacherous. That's kind of why I had Henry V give one of the Welfs a Duchy in Jutland (South Jutland) as he was attempting to secure they loyalty [among other reasons and it seems to have worked for a time...till next time I suppose].

As for the Canossas...well Henry needs the wealth of Italy to not just secure his throne but build those projects in Germany which guarantee it. So he has to step carefully about disrupting it and if he pushes too hard Boniface will disrupt it.

Ba'albek it is

Done

Possible

For Darth Roger there is many things that are possible.

Agreed that put all this chain of events on the shoulder of the Black Spider is too much (even if I can see his messengers sowing dissensions among the French lords still loyal to Louis)

Oh he is certainly doing that now that he has marching orders to bring Louis 'the Pimple' down low.

Dressed in white, and crowned with a garland of wild flowers

The things parents make their six year old sons wear...there is no justice in the world...none at all I tell you.

Rejoice people of Septimania: I bring you the peace of the empire

LOL

Terry Pratchett would say that it is a side effect of the decay of narrativium

So true.

The carving of France *droooool*

How many slices would you like milord?

From the memoirs of Sir Tedice, Warden oof the Gothic Marches:
"My Lord Boniface made me too great an honour by bestowing titles and lands over my unworthy person. By the Wounds of Our Savior I swear that my house will be always true and faitful to house Canossa, through thick and thin. And in token thereof I will raise a new legion, Legio Sexta Gothica, from my new lands in Occitania, and it shall be the shield of Italy in the west

I like and very Sir Tedice.

Arles was quite a mess in OTL too. ITTL there has been some housecleaning

Some housecleaning but not enough. I think Conrad II is going to need to do some serious Spring cleaning when he gets his throne.

You're too kind

 

[Shadow Knight]

I'm just reposting the updated Winter sections. Some new stuff of course but if you've been reading the discussion it mostly incorporates that. Hopefully this will be last bit and I can post the year 1109 AD in the Timeline forum and move on to the year 1110 AD.

--------------------------------

(Winter)

[Sicily] Sciacca and Mazzara, as the last holdouts of Simon’s rule in Sicily, surrendered to the forces of King Roger II. The two towns surrendered within days of each other (December 24th and 25th) and in feeling of Christmas piety Roger only hung the leaders of the resistance leaving the towns’ unscathed. With these surrenders the fates of the Kingdom of Carthage and Sicily began to diverge and do not meet again for a long time.

[Holland] Emperor Henry V arrives in state to winter the imperial court in the splendor and wealth of court of the Count of Holland which has grown fat on the northern trade routes. The issue of the state of France is the reason the Emperor is there and the fate of Flanders has the prime role of the discussions that would take place.

In the words of an Imperial officer, one Helmut of Frankfurt (likely a second son of a court noble serving in the Imperial forces accompanying the Emperor):

For far too long has the Emperor’s attention been diverted elsewhere than to the west where it should be. None of the other realms of Europe can challenge the Empire like that of France. It was to the north with the holy Crusade and the pirates of Denmark not being able to keep a civilized country, and then to south with the concerns in Italy and Sicily. What shall it be next? Will it be something to the east that next draws the attention of his Majesty the Emperor? I pray it should not be as until France learns her place the Emperor should look unto the west…

It was a prevailing thought amongst many who served in the Imperial court that France was or could be a great threat to the Empire and needed to be taught a lesson. [While not true in the northern, eastern, or southern parts of the empire France was considered a great threat in the western lands of the empire such as Holland, the Duchies of Lorraine and of those of Franconia which tended to dominate the Imperial court due to their proximity to the capital of Frankfurt.]

[Central France] As winter set in the Central France the crippling famine and harsh weather took its toll on the weakened people. Thousands began to die of hunger, disease, and lack of warmth. Those under Scarecrow banner faired better than most as food is shared amongst the followers of the rebellion. This led to several more towns and villages in all directions raising the Scarecrow banner.

The rumor of a similar rebellion in the north under a dread leader called Harlequin does much to improve the moral of the beleaguered peasants. However the rumors have a dark current to them that this rebellion has not yet shared; it is one of brutal murder of those who oppose them, slaughter of anyone who stands in their way, and cruelty to those captured that good Christian souls should not embrace.

Hugh of Lusignon begins to draw support from many nobles great and small in Poitou as they tremble in fear of the rebellion spreading even farther than it has. From his new base in Parthenay plans and men are being gathered for a spring strike but the effects of the famine and winter stymied his attempts. Unknown to him with the routing of Louis VI’s army in Toulouse his efforts and a growing rebellion which would normally become a prime concern of any monarch would be one furthest from the thoughts of Louis VI as his defeated army flees north from Toulouse.

[Northern France] Under the care of Queen Constance and the food she was able to import the famine was very much mitigated in the northern part of the realm. From her Duchy of Normandy to Picardy and the border of the Empire the people of France had only the harsh winter to deal with unlike those far to the south. Still Queen Constance worried that her husband would prevail in Toulouse and march against her thus she continued with her preparations for defending her lands. Unbeknownst to her of her husband’s rout she also began to consider a scheme to retrieve her son, Philip, lest he be forever kept from her.

[Southern France] King Louis VI raced with the shattered remains of his army from his defeat in Toulouse first to the occupied town of Rodez where he reinforced the garrison and then north out of Toulouse. He made his way to Clermont where he decided to winter. With rumors of plague, rebellion (to the west and the north), famine still striking much of France, and a new royal call for more knights and men to join him [Louis VI] in the spring to fend off the invaders and rebellious Count it was looking to be a bleak winter in France.

Bertrand in need of money, supplies, men, and diplomatic support asked for a meeting with him. A day after his request was made Bertrand is taken to a parlay with Boniface, in the camp of the Italians. The assembled legions decked out in their identical uniforms and armor greeted the beleaguered Count of Toulouse. Bertrand brought before Boniface who is sitting on a chair, with lions feet, and Bertrand is brought nothing more than a mere wooden stool.

From the Memoirs of Sir Tedice:

Bertrand, Count of Toulouse, came before my lord this morning. His procession came from the town of Muhaud with banners flying and a semblance of pride. That would end soon enough for him…the pride at least as I seem to recall his banners still flying, if a bit limply, when he left.

At the sight of the second legion in their full glory drawn up in ranks looking orderly and splendid in their full regalia Bertrand confidence seemed to deflate…

…When he was presented before my lord on a stool Bertrand learned his place as supplicant, not equal as he had wanted. I even recall him trembling a bit as Lord Canossa began to offers terms of peace and support…but he didn’t go white in the face till it was made apparent that my lord had placed Narbonne under martial law to protect the citizenry from unrest…

…All-in-all it was a bad day for Bertrand of Toulouse. Still it could have ended much worse for him. He could be sharing William of Aquitaine’s fate as prisoner instead of ally…

The negotiation between Boniface Canossa and Bertrand of Toulouse was quite demanding upon the Lord of Toulouse. As he agreed to by messenger Bertrand yielded up on parchment all his claims to Provence. He yielded up his claim and rights to the March of Septimania. The final part of the deal concerned Bertrand’s County of Laodicea in the Levant.

In letters from his brother Godfrey had expressed an interest in consolidating Canossa power in Syria the topic of Laodicea and its absentee lord were often mentioned. In exchange for a large sum of gold from Godfrey Canossa Bertrand would sign away the County of Laodicea to the Knights of St. Stephen and the Patarene Knights with Duke Godfrey recognized as the acting leader of the Knights in Syria.

In exchange for these recognitions Bertrand would receive supplies, gold, military, and diplomatic support. Bertrand of Toulouse desperately needed all of those things lest he be ground down by a vengeful Louis VI.

Bertrand had broached the subject of the prisoner William Duke of Aquitaine and Gascony with Boniface as he was most eager to gain hands on his enemy. However Boniface deferred the status of his guest until Louis VI was dealt with. William would remain a prisoner of the Canossas and would later be placed in appropriate rooms in Narbonne under the watchful eye of Boniface’s men.

From a manuscript found in the archives of Pavia:

On the day of the Resurrection of the Savior, in the year of the Lord 1109, the Italian host was assembled in the Roman theater of Arelatum, and Lord Boniface, Sir Tedice and a pride of other lords knelt in front on an altar where three archbishops and a score and ten of canons celebrated the Holy Mass. After the lords all had partaken of the Body of Our Lord, and the Papal Legate had blessed the eagles of the legions, lord Boniface rose and had lord Tedice raise too, and presented him to the legion saying: Ecce Dux Bellorum Galliae, ecce fidelissimum miles, ecce comes Narbonae. The assembled legionarii shouted three times the name of sir Tedice, and stroke their shields with their mailed fist. Not all the lords still kneeling in the arena joined in this ovation. After two days of rejoicing, the legion turned back, but six centuries rode with Lord Boniface and lord Tedice toward Narbona. And the eagles were brought in front of them, with a herald shouting "Rejoice, people of Occitania, because the eagles have returned. Rejoice, people of Occitania, because I bring you the peace of the Empire.

From the Memoirs of Sir Tedice, Marquis of Septimania [Warden of the Gothic Marches]:

My Lord Boniface made me too great an honor by bestowing titles and lands over my unworthy person. By the Wounds of Our Savior I swear that my house will be always true and faithful to house Canossa, through thick and thin. In token thereof I will raise a new legion, Legio Sexta Gothica, from my new lands in Occitania, and it shall be the shield of Italy and the Empire in the west.

After resting his troops outside Muhaud Boniface ordered Sir Tedice to north to besiege Rodez and secure the supply lines into central France [in order to pursue King Louis VI].

From the Memoirs of Sir Tedice:

Today a mercenary was arrested by a patrol, while riding toward the north. He was carrying an unsigned letter addressed to the Archbishop of Mainz. A libelous account of the events of the last few weeks, larded with unfounded accusations of usurpation of Imperial prerogatives by the Comes Palatinus.

I forwarded this base libel to Lord Boniface, who I was later told read it and laughed, before throwing it into the fire, without any comments. The mercenary has been executed, and the patrols have been reinforced.

It seems our ally Bertrand is not all that pleased at how well my lord trussed him up…too bad for him.

[Syria] Tancred de Hauteville, Count of Beyrouth, arrives in Damascus to come to an agreement on the new borders of his County and what Godfrey ‘the Tall’ Canossa was stylizing as the Duchy of Damascus. A suitable agreement to the new borders was quickly reached as both were content with their gains.

With Kerbogha’s death and his son’s withdrawal from all but the western portion of Syria Godfrey’s army, split into three [a smaller one moving south, the larger army moving north directly under Godfrey, and one under Malaparte staying in Damascus], rapidly consolidated the area around Damascus and to the south. The remains of the armies from the rebellious nobles [against Lulu] did not poise much of a threat as they were scattered, few, and leaderless. After the fall of the town of Adratum in the far south of what was the Emirate of Syria Godfrey’s army encountered a large band of Knight of St. John the Hospitaler (estimates put it at a total force of about two hundred) who were on their way north to assist in the fight. In a show of piety (and likely a desire to continue to curry favor with the Pope and the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem so they would recognize the Duke of Damascus as legitimate title; also a side benefit of allowing him to free up men elsewhere) he turned over Adratum and a large swath of land over to the Latin Patriarchate and the Knights of St. John the Hospitaler.

At this time that Malaparte is rewarded with the title of Count of Baalbeck. This strategic county lies between the County of Tripolis and the Duchy of Damascus.

Lulu, the supposed Emir of Syria, after having paid tribute to Kerbogha’s son Hamza, left Aleppo with what remained of his army hoping to reclaim the southern part of his realm from the infidels. However, tired of his scheming and ineptitude on the field of battle two of his lieutenants, Abdul Nasrallah and Bashar Khaddam, initiated a plot that ended in his demise.

Three days out of Aleppo somewhere between the towns of Hamah and Marra Lulu was slain in his sleep. As Lulu’s corpse was left to the rotting sun in a ditch Abdul Nasrallah and Bashar Khaddam quickly had a falling out over who was to rule with Lulu dead. After a small battle between the two factions the Bashar Khaddam emerged holding the field of battle. Unfortunately for him Abdul Nasrallah was able to escape south with much of his forces intact.

Bashar Khaddam made north to consolidate his hold on Aleppo and the surrounding environs knowing that he had to do this before he could follow after Abdul Nasrallah south.

Abdul Nasrallah fleeing with his small army first made it to the town of Hamah where the local garrison quickly flocked to his banner and quickly made his way to Homs which also joined his banner (it is believed that the town’s governor was a cousin of his). As his rival, Bashar Khaddam, was consolidating in the north Abdul Nasrallah was entrenching in the south [in those lands not occupied by Duke Godfrey] entering around the town of Homs.

As Godfrey and his army moved north from Damascus Abdul Nasrallah realized that the army of the infidel was too strong to fight off by himself. Not willing to crawl back to Bashar Abdul sent a messenger to Godfrey offering peace.

Already slightly overextended Godfrey agrees to a five year truce between with Abdul Nasrallah. The border was roughly set at the furthest extent of where Godfrey’s armies occupied. With peace secure Abdul turned all of his attention back north towards Aleppo.

Towards the end of winter Bashar Khaddam’s army having consolidated the territories in the north finally marched south to challenge his rival again in battle. The two armies met on the outskirts of the town of Hamah with Khaddam’s army being slightly larger but one who had marched half a day before arriving at the battlefield.

The fight was long and brutal and became a draw. The army from Aleppo withdrew after Bashar Khaddam was deeply wounded in his right thigh. He would die within a month from an infection stemming from the wound he gained in this battle. His son Yazid Ibn Abu Khaddam would take his father’s place as ruler of Aleppo.

Realizing that he could neither take Aleppo nor challenge the might of the Christians by himself Abdul Nasrallah declared himself Emir of Homs and gave up his dream of uniting Syria under his banner. Yazid Ibn Abu Khaddam would after another failed attempt to take Homs [In March 1110 AD] also be forced to give up the idea of retaking Syria. He would later stylize himself as the Emir of Aleppo.

[North Africa] Peter of Messina’s army having driven the Banu Sulaym from Tripoli and the surrounding territory followed the Banu army back into their territory. He laid siege to the town of Lebda which also came under blockade from the Carthaginian navy. The town held out till mid-January but was forced to surrender or face starvation.

With the loss of Sicily and Southern Italy Simon I King of Carthage was facing a difficult decision. While he had a substantial treasury, taken with him when he fled from Palermo, and a good sized army and navy to protect what he still had his lands were poor, lightly populated, and surrounded by hostile peoples. His alliance with Aragón and the Byzantines offered some support but it was of a meager kind.

King Simon ordered Peter of Messina to halt his advance not much beyond Lebda where it was declared to be the furthest territory of the Kingdom of Carthage. The Banu tribes crushed and dispirited would not rise to challenge this claim for many years. A series of small forts would be established by Count Peter of Lebda [formerly of Messina] to secure the area. With the war against the Banu tribes coming to a close the excess of soldiers were seen as dangerous situation by King Simon. An idle army that cost a lot of money, which the Carthaginians could ill afford, could pose a threat to his rule however disbanding it could also be dangerous, thankfully for Simon the situation in France would go on to provide an opportunity to solve his problem.

[Livonia] While the Papal legate and the Crusader armies take shelter as best they can in the cold winter those more custom to the cold climate begin to make their might felt against the pagan Eths. Several small forces loyal to the rulers of Novgorod march west out of Pskov and Narva into the lands of the Eths not yet conquered by the western Crusaders. Several of the border clans side with the Novgorodians as they are friendly trade partners and not Crusaders. However as they press in their winter campaign more independent minded Eths fight them as best they can.

[Byzantine Coast – Ionian Sea] Emperor Nicephorus Bryennius tired of the continual raids against coastal Greece orders the Byzantine navy to sally forth from the safety of the Aegean to attempt to challenge the Venetians. His only order was do not sacrifice the navy for a single victory but to do as much damage to the Venetians while minimizing their own.

Unfortunately for the Byzantines the Venetian navy had waited patiently for such an attempt and ambushed the Byzantine fleet off the coast of the Palatinate of Cephalonia. While it wasn’t a crushing defeat the Byzantine fleet took considerable damage and loss of ships. A much reduced Byzantine navy limped back to Athens as word was dispatched to Constantinople of defeat. The court of Emperor Nicephorus Bryennius was much subdued when tale of this defeat was made known. Conversely so great is the joy in Venice when the news of the great victory over the Greek heretics arrive that the Doge orders another winter celebration to be thrown in Venice on announcement of major naval victory.

A Tourist’s Guide to Venice, Page 85

The Dogal procession during the on Marriage of the Sea ceremony begins with the Dogal barge travels from the Dogal Palace [see page 63] to the Lido and in front of the church of St. Niccolo [see page 55] the Doge will throw a precious ring in the sea, pronouncing the words desponsamus te mare, in signo veri perpetuique dominii [we marry you, sea, in sign of true and everlasting dominance]; after which a solemn Mass is held in St. Niccolo.

The tradition started when Pope Paschal II sent one of his finest rings to Doge Ordelafo Faliero in thanks for defeating the heretics [Byzantines] in battle. The Pope authorized the ceremony and recommended it be held on feast day of St. Nicholas, the protector of sailors.

------------

I'll repost the updated map when I get home and get a chance to do so.

 

[Shadow Knight]

And the updated map:

 

[Thande]

I think it's fair to say that this TL has been more thoroughly mapped than OTL

 

[Theodoric]

I find the name of the Friesland region quite unsuitable. The center of the Netherlands hasn't really been inhibated by the Frisians since the 4th century, IIRC, and before then it was only sparcely so. Northern Holland (the modern-day province, not the ATL County of Holland) was more substantially inhabited by the Frisians.

Also, your map includes the polder province of Flevoland, which has only been around since 1986.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I think it's fair to say that this TL has been more thoroughly mapped than OTL

LOL

Maybe so Thande, but I know there is still glaring inconsistencies in it though.

I find the name of the Friesland region quite unsuitable. The center of the Netherlands hasn't really been inhibated by the Frisians since the 4th century, IIRC, and before then it was only sparcely so. Northern Holland (the modern-day province, not the ATL County of Holland) was more substantially inhabited by the Frisians.

Also, your map includes the polder province of Flevoland, which has only been around since 1986.

That's fantastic I love to correct my map...but I can't do that unless you can provide a map for me to go off else I've got to off the maps I have found.

 

[LordKalvan]

I like. I like it a lot.

You're a sucker for this kind of things, aren't you?

Well sadly it wasn't intentional but true nonetheless.

The most poignant lines are often unintentional

Denmark is for sure quite unhappy...to a certain level. The peasants don't really care for the most part, and as improved imperial infrastructure (roads, canals, and expanded harbors) are built things improve for them a bit. The merchants in the trade cities are (for the most part) active supporters of the Emperor. The simplified trade duties and laws (all part of the Imperial Charter), and the ability to trade relatively freely within the borders of the Empire make them ardent supporter. The remaining Danish nobility though that flocks around King Erik II most certainly are not supportive and are very restive. However with the gelding of Danish nobles in the civil war, several prominent nobles having the backing of the Emperor, Imperial garrisons, redistricting of territory makes what he and his supporters do very limited right now.

Well you are right in that saying they are the bedrock of the Empire is a bit optimistic but it is the way Henry V sees it. The Hohenstaufens are loyal (in as much as they can be) and know they have far more to gain [right now] by being so. The Welfs are certainly treacherous. That's kind of why I had Henry V give one of the Welfs a Duchy in Jutland (South Jutland) as he was attempting to secure they loyalty [among other reasons and it seems to have worked for a time...till next time I suppose].

As for the Canossas...well Henry needs the wealth of Italy to not just secure his throne but build those projects in Germany which guarantee it. So he has to step carefully about disrupting it and if he pushes too hard Boniface will disrupt it.

How true. As they say, however, the best plans of men and mice...
Although Henry has a redeeming trait ITTL: his love of gold

For Darth Roger there is many things that are possible.

LOL. This one is an imitation Darth Roger, though

Oh he is certainly doing that now that he has marching orders to bring Louis 'the Pimple' down low.

The Black Spider loves nothing better than a difficult task. And free reins, obviously

The things parents make their six year old sons wear...there is no justice in the world...none at all I tell you.

There ain't no justice and Constance has a love of theater too.
BTW, can you remember when she was born? 1085? I might have an idea...

How many slices would you like milord?

Three, I think. Maybe four. Which brings to my mind a passage from the Memoirs of Lapo Fieschi (Lapo was a Genoese merchant, who was quite successful in his enterprises and laid the foundation for the fortune of casa Fieschi)
It always surprises me to realise how small, apparently insignificant things can make so profound a difference in the lives of men. I was guesting at the Hospice at St. Bernard pass in the winter of 1109, and the gentlemen were supping at a table nearby. A serving brother brought a fat and heavenly smelling fowl at their table. The most distinguished of these gentlemen said in a loud voice: "A meal fit for a king, no, for an emperor. And remember friends: Gallina est omnis divisa in partes tres. It was not such a great joke, and I was quite surprised by the mirth of the three gentlemen, who almost went into a fit of laughing. On my way out, I asked of a brethren who these three people were. Count Guido Rossi of Piacenza, and two learned doctors of the university of Mantua. I was late in taking my sleep that night, and in the morning I reversed my route. Instead of proceeding toward Genoa and home as was my earlier intention, I travelled back to Flanders, where I swiftly proceeded to unload all promissory notes in my hands from french merchants, and to place options on all future supplies of wheat, arms and armours.

I like and very Sir Tedice.

Lord Tedice now, if you don't mind. Although he himself always maintained that his knightly spurs were the noblest and the dearest of his titles.

Some housecleaning but not enough. I think Conrad II is going to need to do some serious Spring cleaning when he gets his throne.

Come on, the Spring Cleaning is not yet done and while Conrad will get a kingly crown I'm not so sure he will become "king of Arles"


A couple of tidbits that might have not been on your radar:

The chancery in Pavia is quite busy in this period, and after the victory in front of Toulouse a number of official (and less than official) embassies are sent to kings and other potentates:

• one you already know about: Count Guido Rossi, Boniface's chief errand boy and plenipotentiary, is travelling to Frankfurt, via the St. Bernard pass, to meet the Emperor, and brief him on the events in Provence and Occitania (as well as to outline Boniface's plans for the future). Once the audience is over, Guido will travel to Denmark, ostensibly to bring a personal message of Boniface to his sister. And if he stops to greet some ducal personage on the way, it's just a show of personal courtesy. The return plans are not yet formed up, but are likely to be via the Flanders, maybe taking ship at Antwerp.
• the second official embassy goes to the Pope, and then south to greet king Roger in his palace at Salerno. Old Bonizo da Cremona hates travelling in winter, but he knows that he's the right man to talk to Paschal. And there is also the libellus recently published, which has ruffled a lot of feathers among the hoi polloi of Holy Roman Church. His only consolation is that he's travelling southward at least
• the third embassy is nominally led by Atto, who gets a few months of release from the tender attentions of Sir Tedice. First stop is in Barcellona, to reinsure Aragon that the changes in Septimania will not negatively affect them. From there to Madrid, to greet his brother-in-law-to-be, and in particular to pay court to his fiancee. Atto looks forward to this part, and is going to tell everyone how big an hero he was in the war, and how an accomplished troubadour he's become. Obviously there are wiser and grayer heads in his retinue to take care of real diplomacy
• Count Carlo Crivelli of Milan is going to pay a visit to the ducal courts in Bretagne and Normandie. Also this visit is quite official: there are serious issues with the peasant unrest in central and northern France, and severe civil disturbances have been reported in Gascoigne and Aquitaine too. Less official is the last leg of the trip, to London.
• Now the truly unofficial portion: a number of embassies to the Welfs, in the Brennermark, Bavaria, Carinthia; a visit to Prague, under the official justification of commercial deals, and from there to Budapest; a visit to Venice, to congratulate the doge on his great victory, but also to talk of commerce, and the situation in Outremer and in Egypt; a flotilla of Thyrrenian ships, bringing news to Godfrey in Palestine (and no one should be unduly surprised to learn that a three ships leave the flotilla after the stop in the palatinate of Cefalonia, and thereafter proceed to Constantinople)
  
  Then there is the matter of the libellus, which so weighs on the mind of good Bonizo. A big ado about nothing, really. An anonimous treatis, with a mild title - De Vera Opulentia Ecclesiae lThe True Wealth of the Church]- and a lot of wild arguments: the Church should not concern hereself with riches, churchmen should live without ostentation, the usual jazz that has always come out from the most extreme reformists. The only truly sticky points is where the author (or authors) argue that all donations of land and property to the Church are null and void, ab origine, since the Church was intended to be poor, and not to concern herself with riches and properties in this world. Now this is likely to ruffle a lot of feathers, and to fuel the avarice of a lot of lords and potentates, and to make my life uncomfortable, thinks Bonizo riding his mule.
  
  Enjoy.
  
  
  
  
  

 

[LordKalvan]

And the updated map:

Great Map. Just a few (very minor) nitpicks:

• Gotland should be styled as "Commonwealth of Gotland"
• Man should be a kingdom in its own right
• Icosium is Thyrrenian
  
  
  

 

[G.Bone]

Looking at the map it appears that France is pretty much shattered beyond any recognition. I suppose that's the reason why you threw in the quote about the HRE being a wee bit worried about that shattered nation state. Will it ever get up on it's own two feet and be unified or is that a question for many years to come?

The whole bit about Syria looks interesting. So - a complete shut out of any Islamic influences on the Middle Eastern coast, with the exception of Egypt? (I'm assuming this by the text about the Aleppo battles/wars)

 

[LordKalvan]

Great Map. Just a few (very minor) nitpicks:

• Gotland should be styled as "Commonwealth of Gotland"
• Man should be a kingdom in its own right
• Icosium is Thyrrenian
• Tuscany is a duchy too. It was granted by Henry, and Boniface's eleder son is the titular head
• Corsica and Sardinia are Papal fiefs, in personal union with the crown of Italy (like the duchy of the Western Islands: should have the same color)
• Otranto is Venetian possession
  
  
  

Could not edit any more, so just added

 

[Shadow Knight]

You're a sucker for this kind of things, aren't you?

The most poignant lines are often unintentional

True.

How true. As they say, however, the best plans of men and mice...
Although Henry has a redeeming trait ITTL: his love of gold

And what a redeeming trait it is.

LOL. This one is an imitation Darth Roger, though

Well he's got the mask at least.

The Black Spider loves nothing better than a difficult task. And free reins, obviously

Well lets see how far he can spin his web and just how powerful his poisonous bite is.

There ain't no justice and Constance has a love of theater too.
BTW, can you remember when she was born? 1085? I might have an idea...

1086 according to the Family tree chart. (You can always click on the attachments paperclip next to the thread and get easy access to said chart.) So what's the idea?

Three, I think. Maybe four. Which brings to my mind a passage from the Memoirs of Lapo Fieschi (Lapo was a Genoese merchant, who was quite successful in his enterprises and laid the foundation for the fortune of casa Fieschi)
It always surprises me to realise how small, apparently insignificant things can make so profound a difference in the lives of men. I was guesting at the Hospice at St. Bernard pass in the winter of 1109, and the gentlemen were supping at a table nearby. A serving brother brought a fat and heavenly smelling fowl at their table. The most distinguished of these gentlemen said in a loud voice: "A meal fit for a king, no, for an emperor. And remember friends: Gallina est omnis divisa in partes tres. It was not such a great joke, and I was quite surprised by the mirth of the three gentlemen, who almost went into a fit of laughing. On my way out, I asked of a brethren who these three people were. Count Guido Rossi of Piacenza, and two learned doctors of the university of Mantua. I was late in taking my sleep that night, and in the morning I reversed my route. Instead of proceeding toward Genoa and home as was my earlier intention, I travelled back to Flanders, where I swiftly proceeded to unload all promissory notes in my hands from french merchants, and to place options on all future supplies of wheat, arms and armours.

LOL I'll be sure to include that in the next part.

Lord Tedice now, if you don't mind. Although he himself always maintained that his knightly spurs were the noblest and the dearest of his titles.

Truly a noble knight amongst knights.

Come on, the Spring Cleaning is not yet done and while Conrad will get a kingly crown I'm not so sure he will become "king of Arles"

Quite so. I've had some thoughts on that myself on how that's going to play out but it depends on if I go with plan A or with plan B.

A couple of tidbits that might have not been on your radar:

The chancery in Pavia is quite busy in this period, and after the victory in front of Toulouse a number of official (and less than official) embassies are sent to kings and other potentates:

• one you already know about: Count Guido Rossi, Boniface's chief errand boy and plenipotentiary, is travelling to Frankfurt, via the St. Bernard pass, to meet the Emperor, and brief him on the events in Provence and Occitania (as well as to outline Boniface's plans for the future). Once the audience is over, Guido will travel to Denmark, ostensibly to bring a personal message of Boniface to his sister. And if he stops to greet some ducal personage on the way, it's just a show of personal courtesy. The return plans are not yet formed up, but are likely to be via the Flanders, maybe taking ship at Antwerp.

• 
  
  Makes sense. Although I presume you mean a personal message to his daughter in Denmark not his sister (who is Normandy).
  
  Although what did you have in mind for him to tell his daughter beyond "start having some kids to secure that line" and other personal correspondence?
  
  I can see what would be said to the Emperor and any possible Dukes he might make call on.
  
  

  [*]the second official embassy goes to the Pope, and then south to greet king Roger in his palace at Salerno. Old Bonizo da Cremona hates travelling in winter, but he knows that he's the right man to talk to Paschal. And there is also the libellus recently published, which has ruffled a lot of feathers among the hoi polloi of Holy Roman Church. His only consolation is that he's travelling southward at least

  
  Okay, can do.
  
  

  [*]the third embassy is nominally led by Atto, who gets a few months of release from the tender attentions of Sir Tedice. First stop is in Barcellona, to reinsure Aragon that the changes in Septimania will not negatively affect them. From there to Madrid, to greet his brother-in-law-to-be, and in particular to pay court to his fiancee. Atto looks forward to this part, and is going to tell everyone how big an hero he was in the war, and how an accomplished troubadour he's become. Obviously there are wiser and grayer heads in his retinue to take care of real diplomacy

  
  Of course. It is time for Atto to meet his soon to be blushing bride and he can tell her all about his heroic deeds fighting dirty Franks under the faithless Louis.
  
  I presume by going to Castille and Leon it is not just a social visit but to further the ties between them. Or is there something else you had in mind?
  
  

  [*]Count Carlo Crivelli of Milan is going to pay a visit to the ducal courts in Bretagne and Normandie. Also this visit is quite official: there are serious issues with the peasant unrest in central and northern France, and severe civil disturbances have been reported in Gascoigne and Aquitaine too. Less official is the last leg of the trip, to London.

  
  Of course. We all feel for the lowly guy working the field but we must make sure he doesn't rise above himself too much, eh?
  
  Seriously though those rebellions are going to become a real issue come Spring as there is not much seed stock left in a good lot of areas in France.
  
  As for London I presume it is to keep English hands out of France. Maybe a little gift of some silver to aid the King of England in his conquest of those barely civilized Welsh.
  
  

  [*]Now the truly unofficial portion: a number of embassies to the Welfs, in the Brennermark, Bavaria, Carinthia; a visit to Prague, under the official justification of commercial deals, and from there to Budapest; a visit to Venice, to congratulate the doge on his great victory, but also to talk of commerce, and the situation in Outremer and in Egypt; a flotilla of Thyrrenian ships, bringing news to Godfrey in Palestine (and no one should be unduly surprised to learn that a three ships leave the flotilla after the stop in the palatinate of Cefalonia, and thereafter proceed to Constantinople)

  
  Gather support within the Empire to acknowledge gains in France and maybe a official change in the status of the Kingdom of Arles?
  
  To Venice maybe an Italian commissioned set of stone winged lions of St. Mark to celebrate along with the talks of trade and the Eastern Med. Perhaps an offer to mediate between them and the Greeks?
  
  Of course Godfrey needs to be made aware of his new title of Knight General of Laodicea and the fleet of Patrene Knights and ships of St. Stephen to assist in the protection of pilgrims in that county.
  
  As for Constantinople perhaps talks of trade and offers of mediation with the Venetians? Or did you have something else in mind?
  
  

  Then there is the matter of the libellus, which so weighs on the mind of good Bonizo. A big ado about nothing, really. An anonimous treatis, with a mild title - De Vera Opulentia Ecclesiae lThe True Wealth of the Church]- and a lot of wild arguments: the Church should not concern hereself with riches, churchmen should live without ostentation, the usual jazz that has always come out from the most extreme reformists. The only truly sticky points is where the author (or authors) argue that all donations of land and property to the Church are null and void, ab origine, since the Church was intended to be poor, and not to concern herself with riches and properties in this world. Now this is likely to ruffle a lot of feathers, and to fuel the avarice of a lot of lords and potentates, and to make my life uncomfortable, thinks Bonizo riding his mule.

  
  Yeah I can see how that might ruffle the feathers of a lot of people. This is your realm of the TL so how you want to play that out I'll leave to you.
  
  

  Enjoy.

  
  I did.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Great Map. Just a few (very minor) nitpicks:

• Gotland should be styled as "Commonwealth of Gotland"
• Man should be a kingdom in its own right
• Icosium is Thyrrenian
  

Can do to the first.

To the second it is. It is the Kingdom of Man and the Outer Islands. As in the King of Man rules all those little islands off the coast of Scotland. ITTL Norway didn't conquer them as both the Norwegian King and his elder son died in combat there. Those Norwegians left returned to Norway [remember that whole Norwegian part of the TL?].

As to the third. It is. You've got to look closely though but there is a bit of 'Imperial' Green surrounding the city.

Looking at the map it appears that France is pretty much shattered beyond any recognition. I suppose that's the reason why you threw in the quote about the HRE being a wee bit worried about that shattered nation state. Will it ever get up on it's own two feet and be unified or is that a question for many years to come?

The whole bit about Syria looks interesting. So - a complete shut out of any Islamic influences on the Middle Eastern coast, with the exception of Egypt? (I'm assuming this by the text about the Aleppo battles/wars)

Well France isn't shattered completely yet. The separate colors indicate the power of the greater nobles of France. If you look closely you'll see them outlined in French blue. While those nobles closely aligned with the King (i.e. the Duchy of Burgundy and for the moment Normandy) are French blue but with a 'independent color' outlining it to show that while aligned with the king they are still powerful independently minded nobles.

The bit about HRE being worried about France has to do with that if France got its act together it would be the only neighbor of the Empire that could truly threaten it. But as you said a nation collapsing on your border is also an issue as peasant rebellions, refugees fleeing the fighting, loss of trade, etc. are serious issues that no one really wants next door.

Well Godfrey's lands in the Levant have a strong local flavor and that includes Islamic influence (including Druze and Assassin influence in spades) along side Latin and Eastern Christian influences.

As for Egypt it is Islamic but it is slowly falling under Venetian influence...

But don't forget about the tiny Emirate of Acre. It is still under an Islamic ruler.

Could not edit any more, so just added:
Tuscany is a duchy too. It was granted by Henry, and Boniface's eleder son is the titular head
Corsica and Sardinia are Papal fiefs, in personal union with the crown of Italy (like the duchy of the Western Islands: should have the same color)
Otranto is Venetian possession

Ah okay I'll rename it the Duchy of Tuscany. (I thought it was but wasn't sure. Is Romagna a County then?)

Okay I'll recolor them to an appropriate scheme.

Can do.

 

[LordKalvan]

Can do to the first.

To the second it is. It is the Kingdom of Man and the Outer Islands. As in the King of Man rules all those little islands off the coast of Scotland. ITTL Norway didn't conquer them as both the Norwegian King and his elder son died in combat there. Those Norwegians left returned to Norway [remember that whole Norwegian part of the TL?].

As to the third. It is. You've got to look closely though but there is a bit of 'Imperial' Green surrounding the city.



Well France isn't shattered completely yet. The separate colors indicate the power of the greater nobles of France. If you look closely you'll see them outlined in French blue. While those nobles closely aligned with the King (i.e. the Duchy of Burgundy and for the moment Normandy) are French blue but with a 'independent color' outlining it to show that while aligned with the king they are still powerful independently minded nobles.

The bit about HRE being worried about France has to do with that if France got its act together it would be the only neighbor of the Empire that could truly threaten it. But as you said a nation collapsing on your border is also an issue as peasant rebellions, refugees fleeing the fighting, loss of trade, etc. are serious issues that no one really wants next door.

Well Godfrey's lands in the Levant have a strong local flavor and that includes Islamic influence (including Druze and Assassin influence in spades) along side Latin and Eastern Christian influences.

As for Egypt it is Islamic but it is slowly falling under Venetian influence...

But don't forget about the tiny Emirate of Acre. It is still under an Islamic ruler.



Ah okay I'll rename it the Duchy of Tuscany. (I thought it was but wasn't sure. Is Romagna a County then?)

Okay I'll recolor them to an appropriate scheme.

Can do.

Marches of Romagna

 

[Shadow Knight]

Marches of Romagna

Ah noted then.

 

[LordKalvan]

Well lets see how far he can spin his web and just how powerful his poisonous bite is.

You know that the treacherous Greek has proven his mettle in the past. And bamboozling a bunch of dumb French nobles should not be too much for him

1086 according to the Family tree chart. (You can always click on the attachments paperclip next to the thread and get easy access to said chart.) So what's the idea?

I was thinking of Bretaigne, which until now has played no role ITTL.
Now there is this young heir to the duchy with the auspicious name of Conan (before you ask, he's not yet gained his nickname ) who OTL was born in 1092, and became duke in 1111 when his father abdicated and entered a monastery. Now I bet that when you hear the name Conan you'd expect that the guy is big, long-limbed, strong and with a surfeit of courage. Our lady Constance has had a bad experience with Louis the Pimp, and might rebound and be attracted to this young demi-god (he's a bit younger than her, but dinastic marriages do not care a lot about age difference). Conan, coming from rustic Bretagne, would equally be attracted to the polished and cultured Duchess of Normandie. And the two duchies are side by side, it would be a sensible match. If Plan A gets approved (a consensual carving of France), there might be a good chance to have the old kingdom of Bretagne reborn. Plus it would be a nice mirror image of OTL, where Bretagne ended up under Norman influence too, but from the other side of the Channel. Bonus: ITTL the numbers would favor the Bretons, so it would not end up as a Normannised Bretagne: there would be an opportunity for a Celtic kingdom to thrive.
Disclaimer: Notwithstanding all these bullshit rationalizations, I'm quite sure that all of this is caused by the decay of narrativium

Truly a noble knight amongst knights.

A paragon among knights; the surprise is that he's also quite a practical man.

Quite so. I've had some thoughts on that myself on how that's going to play out but it depends on if I go with plan A or with plan B.

Plan A I discussed before. I would assume that Plan B is Henry getting imperially pissed and deciding to do something stupid. Which is the worry of the chancery in Pavia, and is the reason for most of those unofficial embassies. Personally, I'd put my trust in Henry and his love of gold.

Makes sense. Although I presume you mean a personal message to his daughter in Denmark not his sister (who is Normandy).

Although what did you have in mind for him to tell his daughter beyond "start having some kids to secure that line" and other personal correspondence?

I can see what would be said to the Emperor and any possible Dukes he might make call on.

Obviously she's his daughter. My very bad.
I did not say that going to have a cozy chat with Matilda was the true reason of the detour, just the official one (even if Matilda the younger had at least the temper and the resilience of her grandmother, if not - alas - her brain and her taste in men ). I would expect that Guido wants to have a first-hand look of the north of Germany and how the Danish are taking their less-than-spontaneous admission to the empire. Bonus: there are quite a number of merchants there, and a good source of gossip and intelligence. Or maybe there is even a "case Yellow" in a sealed envelope: open only if Henry is doing something stupid.

Of course. It is time for Atto to meet his soon to be blushing bride and he can tell her all about his heroic deeds fighting dirty Franks under the faithless Louis.

Of course. And he wants to see the girl, and possibly entertains some stupid notion of getting into her panties too.

I presume by going to Castille and Leon it is not just a social visit but to further the ties between them. Or is there something else you had in mind?

Well, there is Aragon/Barcelon which is an up-and-coming player in the western Mediterranean, and might create problems with the Thyrrenians in the Baleares and/or with the newly acquired lands in Southern France. A lil chat with Sancho and his advisors, and a review of possible scenarios would not come amiss.

Of course. We all feel for the lowly guy working the field but we must make sure he doesn't rise above himself too much, eh?

Seriously though those rebellions are going to become a real issue come Spring as there is not much seed stock left in a good lot of areas in France.

As for London I presume it is to keep English hands out of France. Maybe a little gift of some silver to aid the King of England in his conquest of those barely civilized Welsh.

Once again, there is a difference between the official reason for an embassy and the unofficial one(s). Unrest in central France is certainly important, but the main reason would be to check up the situation in Normandy (and in Bretaigne on teh way) and verify if Constance's position is safe enough, and what contingency plans might be more appropriate for the next coming round. You might even say that the chancery in Pavia is more far-seeing than the Department of State So in this case there is a case Orange (Plan A goes into motion) or a case RED (Henry is dumb).
Re. the junket to London, the purpose is not really to keep the Normans out of Europe. ITTL this appears to be their chosen policy. Therefore this mission is more to check if any support is likely to eventuate if case RED eventuates.

Gather support within the Empire to acknowledge gains in France and maybe a official change in the status of the Kingdom of Arles?

Whatever your plans are in Italy, the Welfs are important players, given the geographical position of their holdings (and a few marital ties between Welfs and Canossas). I would consider this a very serious and important diplomatic mission. Prague and Budapest come a bit like an afterthought, and also as a smoke screen.

To Venice maybe an Italian commissioned set of stone winged lions of St. Mark to celebrate along with the talks of trade and the Eastern Med. Perhaps an offer to mediate between them and the Greeks?

Venice is a bit of a loose cannon in Italy, and must be kept under strict surveillance. Congratulations on their sea victory, an offer to mediate with the Byzantines, talks about grain supplies, reassurances that the get-together with the Hungarians will not negatively affect Venice..

Of course Godfrey needs to be made aware of his new title of Knight General of Laodicea and the fleet of Patrene Knights and ships of St. Stephen to assist in the protection of pilgrims in that county.

Again, it's the official justification. The unofficial is to make him aware of Plan A and Plan B. and warn him that no reinforcements are likely to come in the next future. Effectively Godfrey will be on his own for the next year or so, and he has to plan accordingly.

As for Constantinople perhaps talks of trade and offers of mediation with the Venetians? Or did you have something else in mind?

Trade and mediations, by all means. Some warnings: the unrest in france does not need to give the Greeks any strange ideas, in the Balkans or in Outremer. Also a gentle hinting that Roger has cleaned up house, and remind them of what happened just a scan generation ago. Also some maskirovska, obviously. Am I too contorted?

Yeah I can see how that might ruffle the feathers of a lot of people. This is your realm of the TL so how you want to play that out I'll leave to you.

In the Middle Ages this issue is a returning one, and OTL was never satisfactorily solved. ITTL things were a mite better, but the compromise reached at the end of 1080s was just that: a compromise. One generation later it has to come again to a boiling point. Plus having a middle age think tank in Mantua will not make things easier, rather the contrary
Good news is that it's reported that Henry himself himself became totally engrossed in reading the libellus, and apparently his feathers were not ruffled at all

 

[Shadow Knight]

With the fixes mentioned by LK.

 

[Cyreidel]

Hey there, if you want, I can give you a few tips on how to improve the Baltic region, because currently it's a bit ASB, not just a little, even..