A fractured HRE (a map of a WI)

[Shadow Knight]

Nitpickings:

Glad to have them. Since you are the only one responding you are allowed to nitpick as much as you want.

- it would be the Duchy of Lombardy (there is already a Margravate of Lombardy, with the Margrave "governing" from Milan). If you look at the names of the Duchies in this age, they are all named after regions, and not cities. Now there are a couple of points worth considering: the current margrave of Milan is Albert Azzo II Welf [as an aside, the guy surprisingly lived up to the ripe age of 101 years, dieing in 1097. At this moment, he is already with a foot in his grave].

Ah well then no sense in letting this venerable guy die at that ripe old age...a spry fellow like him has got to die defending his lands. A middle ages version of Count Dooku.

Got the family name? His eldest son is Welf IV, duke of Bavaria and Carniola (the father of Welf V the Fat), and from him the German Welf-Este will descend.; his second son Hugh inherited the County of Maine, in France (the dowry of his mother), but left no issue and sold the county; the youngest son, Fulc, is the founder of the italian branch of the family, the Fulc-Este (from the castle of Este, near Padua, built by Albert Azzo II). We are again mixed up with the usual nice family issues. The Welf family supports the pope and the Canossas against the empire. It would not do to offend them.

No it wouldn't...I shall use your recommendation.

Milan is more and more unruly, and is becoming a big city (population doubled up in these years, from 45,000 to 90,000, which is a lot in this time and age). There is again the need to find an accommodation between the free cities and the aristocracy if Mathilda's dream has to be fulfilled. My proposal is: the margravate of Lombardy will cease with the deat of the margrave, and will be replaced by the Duchy of Lombardy, with capital seat in Pavia (Pavia is smaller, less unruly than Milan - even if in 1024 rebelled against Henry II and burned down the imperial palace - and was traditionally the seat of the kings of Italy); the Duchy of Lombardy (which brings also the title of Count Palatine of Italy) will be given to Boniface (and Pavia is a fine seat, since it is close to the Po river, and the traditional Canossa fiefs in Piacenza and Guastalla);

Done.

the house of Este is compensated by being invested as margraves of Veneto, with their seat in Este. Conrad will not have a fixed seat, but will travel Italy and Germany as needed. Milan will be rebuilt [now the problem is this: Milan will be likely to become the major power in Lombardy in any TL, given its population basis and geographical position. OTL, Milan ascendancy begun in the late 11th century and went on progressively until the late 15th century and the Italian wars.

Mathilda's task (and a very difficult one) will be to hammer out a charter for the free cities, detailing both their rights and their obligations, toward their sovereign as well as toward other free cities or feudal lords. OTL, this did not happen: the free cities in Italy got their rights with the sword and with the flame (and with their deep coffers). OTOH, the situation was very unstable, with leagues and alliances forming and collapsing, cities destroyed and civil unrest. Ultimately, all the cities had to accept a lord which was strong enough to guarantee the peace. It would be great if this were to be the true Mathildan legacy: a charter of rights (the Magna Charta is not very far away, in any case. And the jurists are already established at the university of Bologna).

Ah good to see that we are thinking along the same lines. Got any suggestions on what would be good to go in this Charter of Rights? (I've got some ideas but a good fleshing out would be nice.)

- OTL Mathilda concentrated too much on her northern fiefs, to the detriment of the traditional Canossa holding in Tuscany. Besides the intermittent war with Pisa (which is at the top of her power in these years), also Lucca revolted against her. Florence only stayed loyal. In TTL, Mathilda can probably have more time and leisure to confront and solve these issues too.

Yes she and her family will have much to keep themselves busy with for a while. But with support from the Pope, the heir to the Empire (Conrad), and in a better situation overall a conclusions to these issues can be found.

- the pope (as sovereign lord of Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica) grants feudal right to Pisa (and not a supremacy which Pisa had already got) over Corsica and Sardinia (the same thing he did with Robert Guiscard, when he was invested Count of Sicily).

Quite so. I was not planning on striping Pisa of her possessions however who would the Pope back Pisa or Canossa if Pisa did refuse to come to the table over a Charter and decided they like the situation as it is? (I think I know what the answer would be, but just want to confirm it.)

In 1077 Henry IV gave Pisa rights to basically rule themselves (actually they already had it but this just made it formal), and as he campaigned in Italy against Matilda he promised such things to a few other cities (such as Ferrara). With the peace treaty he recinds these rights thus allowing Matilda to be the one to offer such things (outside interference could ruin any plans she has) or not as she sees fit. Ferrara is the first on her list to rectify...whether they want to or not.

[Rewrite]
He agreed to the following:

Recognize Conrad as King of Germany and King of Italy.
Boniface is granted the newly created Duchy of Lombardy (and thus Count Palatine of Italy), capital in Pavia (Since the elderly Margrave Albert Azzo II Welf died defending Milan, an inspiration to all people approaching a century of life)
The House of Este is invested as Margraves of Veneto, capital Este
Henry, from his personal estates, will have to ‘donate’ some hard currency to help rebuild Milan
Disband the large army currently occupying Milan and return them to Germany
The House of Canossa is granted a formalization of the Vice-Regal status within the Kingdom of Italy
Agrees to recognize Matilda’s and Boniface’s rights in the Lorraine duchies
All the Imperial titles he stripped from Matilda are returned
Several other minor lands are exchanged in compensation for the destruction wrought on the House of Canossa’s land during Henry’s campaigns in Italy
Henry is to recant several promises he made towards several cities within Italy (Pisa being the most prominent among those named)
Denounce Clement III and Henry must go to Rome and ‘discuss’ things with Pope Urban II

[/Rewrite]

 

[LordKalvan]

Drawing a Charter of Rights is not an easy task: we all know how to do it, right now, but Mathilda is still a daughter of her time and age. And she's winning big, right now; and her dinasty looks assured.
The cities in this period are governed by their bishops (who may have or have not the strength to oppose the factionalism of the major families living there). Mathilda is in good relation with the pope, so there is not even a major issue in deciding who has the right to appoint the bishops.
OTOH, Mathilda's problem is mostly a financial one: wars are expensive, and the fighting has undoubtedly reduced her revenues. And the cities have money available to spend.
I'd go for a low profile charter: the cities are recognised their exemption from feudal obligations toward the feudataries on their territory; they will get the right to establish trade fairs; they will even get the right to administer high justice (I might even go as far as establishing a court of justice of the kingdom of Italy at Pavia or Bologna, to adjudicate all the issues arising between feudataries and cities: it would be the starting point for a judiciary system, which in any case is still far in the future). All this in exchange for hard cash. Let's stop here for now: the next step will come when the Canossa get in trouble, and need more support. Obviously, cities like Pisa, Genoa, Milan, maybe also Mantua, Ferrara, Lucca and Florence will get more benefits from this policy. I don't think that taking away the right to go to war makes sense, or is enforceable. Possibly, Mathilda might guarantee safe passage through the Canossa lands to merchants, and even negotiate an overall duty (instead of having every two-bits baron fllecing the traders): this would mean a larger standing army, and the manning of fortresses along the main trade routes. Both of these ideas might start to make sense for the paramount lady of Italy. Her peers might be less than amused, and there will be a lot of plotting if not outright revolts: a few good examples should be forthcoming, though (maybe even enrolling the help of cities' levies).

Another thing that should go on as per schedule is the 1st Crusade. I think that Conrad will go: he looks that kind of guy (and he might be so lucky to die taking Jerusalem, which might help to sort out the political situation in Italy). Robert Curthose will also go, as per OTL (but in TTL should be back earlier). Boniface will be needed in Italy, but Godfrey might also go: a Canossa principality in outremer? Maybe the Canossa in TTL ill replace the Montferrat: I'd expect a much stronger italian flavor in TTL crusades. The other guy who certainly goes crusading is Godfrey of Bouillon, freeing up the Lorraine duchy.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Drawing a Charter of Rights is not an easy task: we all know how to do it, right now, but Mathilda is still a daughter of her time and age. And she's winning big, right now; and her dinasty looks assured.
The cities in this period are governed by their bishops (who may have or have not the strength to oppose the factionalism of the major families living there). Mathilda is in good relation with the pope, so there is not even a major issue in deciding who has the right to appoint the bishops.
OTOH, Mathilda's problem is mostly a financial one: wars are expensive, and the fighting has undoubtedly reduced her revenues. And the cities have money available to spend.

I'd go for a low profile charter: the cities are recognised their exemption from feudal obligations toward the feudataries on their territory; they will get the right to establish trade fairs; they will even get the right to administer high justice (I might even go as far as establishing a court of justice of the kingdom of Italy at Pavia or Bologna, to adjudicate all the issues arising between feudataries and cities: it would be the starting point for a judiciary system, which in any case is still far in the future). All this in exchange for hard cash.

I can go along with that, Pavia might be the best with it being the new center of political power as the capital of the Duchy of Lombardy.

Let's stop here for now: the next step will come when the Canossa get in trouble, and need more support. Obviously, cities like Pisa, Genoa, Milan, maybe also Mantua, Ferrara, Lucca and Florence will get more benefits from this policy. I don't think that taking away the right to go to war makes sense, or is enforceable. Possibly, Mathilda might guarantee safe passage through the Canossa lands to merchants, and even negotiate an overall duty (instead of having every two-bits baron fllecing the traders): this would mean a larger standing army, and the manning of fortresses along the main trade routes. Both of these ideas might start to make sense for the paramount lady of Italy. Her peers might be less than amused, and there will be a lot of plotting if not outright revolts: a few good examples should be forthcoming, though (maybe even enrolling the help of cities' levies).

Good ideas, thanks LordKalvan for the input.

Another thing that should go on as per schedule is the 1st Crusade. I think that Conrad will go: he looks that kind of guy (and he might be so lucky to die taking Jerusalem, which might help to sort out the political situation in Italy). Robert Curthose will also go, as per OTL (but in TTL should be back earlier). Boniface will be needed in Italy, but Godfrey might also go: a Canossa principality in outremer? Maybe the Canossa in TTL ill replace the Montferrat: I'd expect a much stronger italian flavor in TTL crusades. The other guy who certainly goes crusading is Godfrey of Bouillon, freeing up the Lorraine duchy.

Already got that planned, why else is the Pope out of Rome forcing Henry to cool his heels (not just to teach him humility which he might have done anyway) but he is on his way to France for some speechifying.

As for Conrad I have a good plan for him first he needs to spend a bit of time in Germany settling some affairs there then he can go adventuring. He might not be in the first wave of Crusaders but he should end up there.

Oh and here is an updated map (circa 1200 AD), I fixed afew errors in the Western border that I had found,and made a few changes to keep up with changes in the TL. More changes might be made later as the TL progresses.

 

[LordKalvan]

I see this interesting kingdom of Carthage which sprung out in North Africa.
Remember that Pisa took Carthage between 1030 1nd 1035, and that again in 1088 they sacked el mehedia in Tunisia.
The major drawback for Pisans in their expansion across the Mediterranean was their lack of manpower: they were already at the limit having to garrison Corsica and sardinia, not to mention all their colonies in the eastern Mediterranean.
In TTL, Pisa will not be the Ghibellin city that it was in OTL: the emperor has been defeated, and Mathilda has accepted to mend fences, and grant the city the right of electing their consuls.
I would see this bringing fruits in the last decade of the 11th century, with joint expeditions in north Africa [this time Carthage is taken for good, and will be the basis for the kingdom of Carthage], not to mention during the first crusade.
The Normans of Sicily will not be completely happy to see Northern italians setting up a power base in their bailiwick, but this might result in a Norman policy more oriented toward Northern Africa (Tripolitania, Cyrenaica and Egypt) rather than their futile attempts in northern Greece.
If both Tunisia and Lybia are taken (and the first crusade is more or less successful as per OTL), Egypt will be likely to fall too. This is very important for a number of reason: the crusading states will achieve the strategical depth and the population basis which they lacked in OTL; Alessandria in Christian hands will open the Red Sea and beyond to the seafaring Italian cities.

Another point, seeing that Balearic islands appear on the left of the map in a strange color: in 1113, a joint Catalan-pisan expedition took the islands from the saracen pirates who were holding them. OTL, this conquest did not last.
In TTL, Genoa might be involved too (in OTL they were excluded by their rivality with Pisa), and again Boniface might be involved. There might be at least a dukedom (if not a kingdom) of the Balearic islands there for the taking.

I would envisage a scenario where Mathilda and the Pope are able to mediate between Pisa and Genoa, and convince the two cities to agree in a sharing of Mediterranean trading. This might become very bad news for Venice, btw (but then Venetians are usually quite realistic people, and I believe that if their hand were forced they could live with sharing too: there is an unbelievable amount of money to be made in the mediterranean traffics in this age and time). This might be a truly important secondary POD, IMO: the 12th and the 13th centuries were bonanza years for Italy in OTL, notwithstanding the continuous bickering and the ferocious internecine wars. In a scenario where there is a strong dinasty on the throne (and the kings know where their money comes from) Renaissance might even come earlier than it did, and certainly the Mediterranean and the Black sea would become Italian lakes.
IMHO, if Mathilda were capable to pull this rabbit out of her hat, her capacity to rely on both the genoese and the pisan navies would make her the most powerful lady in the Mediterranean.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I see this interesting kingdom of Carthage which sprung out in North Africa.
Remember that Pisa took Carthage between 1030 1nd 1035, and that again in 1088 they sacked el mehedia in Tunisia.
The major drawback for Pisans in their expansion across the Mediterranean was their lack of manpower: they were already at the limit having to garrison Corsica and sardinia, not to mention all their colonies in the eastern Mediterranean.
In TTL, Pisa will not be the Ghibellin city that it was in OTL: the emperor has been defeated, and Mathilda has accepted to mend fences, and grant the city the right of electing their consuls.

Yeah it is in response to that mini-crusade that the Pope Victor III declared on the infidels of Africa that Robert Guiscard went on after returning to Italy to save Pope Gregory in Rome from Henry IV. As currently in the TL the control a stretch of coastal territory from Bone in the West over to Tunis/Carthage then down the coast (only bulging slightly inward to Kerawin and back towards the coast but it is a tenous hold) all the way over to Tripoli and several miles to the East of that city. When Robert Guiscard died as Tripoli fell they didn't push much farther East then that. Since then additional Normans from Europe have gone there and pushed the border out a bit but the natives know their terrain and how to fight there a little better. Come the 1st Crusade these Normans who have fought the muslims in a desert-like condition will be quite valuable even if they only come in small numbers.

Not everyone is going to like 'Sicily' controlling both sides of the these pathways to the East and West Med. which is a little bit of the why they are not united in the ~1200 map.

I would see this bringing fruits in the last decade of the 11th century, with joint expeditions in north Africa [this time Carthage is taken for good, and will be the basis for the kingdom of Carthage], not to mention during the first crusade.
The Normans of Sicily will not be completely happy to see Northern italians setting up a power base in their bailiwick, but this might result in a Norman policy more oriented toward Northern Africa (Tripolitania, Cyrenaica and Egypt) rather than their futile attempts in northern Greece.

Actually as mentioned above its the Northern Italians that are the ones not going to like the Normas controlling this section of North Africa (thus virtually controlling the trade from East to West) but some events are planned to make them less unhappy.

If both Tunisia and Lybia are taken (and the first crusade is more or less successful as per OTL), Egypt will be likely to fall too. This is very important for a number of reason: the crusading states will achieve the strategical depth and the population basis which they lacked in OTL; Alessandria in Christian hands will open the Red Sea and beyond to the seafaring Italian cities.

I haven't planned out precisely how much better the Crusaders are going to do but I imagine they are going to do a bit better. Egypt probably isn't going to fall right away though...maybe a later Crusade or just plain old conquest will do them in.

Another point, seeing that Balearic islands appear on the left of the map in a strange color: in 1113, a joint Catalan-pisan expedition took the islands from the saracen pirates who were holding them. OTL, this conquest did not last.
In TTL, Genoa might be involved too (in OTL they were excluded by their rivality with Pisa), and again Boniface might be involved. There might be at least a dukedom (if not a kingdom) of the Balearic islands there for the taking.

Good points to consider I hadn't thought about that, just saw them on a map circa 1200 but your right...I might get to adjust my map a bit more again.

I would envisage a scenario where Mathilda and the Pope are able to mediate between Pisa and Genoa, and convince the two cities to agree in a sharing of Mediterranean trading. This might become very bad news for Venice, btw (but then Venetians are usually quite realistic people, and I believe that if their hand were forced they could live with sharing too: there is an unbelievable amount of money to be made in the mediterranean traffics in this age and time).

That's kind of what I thought also. I'd given thought that the Venetians might cut a deal with the Byzantines (here trade with the Levant might be dominated by Genoans and Pisans and other North Italian cities of the HRE/KoI) and get exclusive rights to the Black Sea and the Empire...but we'll see. And maybe Venice will sponsor the invasion of Egypt (as they were supposed to do in 1204 instead of sacking Constantinople) and come to dominate the Red Sea to India route trying to cut out the other cities by going direct.

This might be a truly important secondary POD, IMO: the 12th and the 13th centuries were bonanza years for Italy in OTL, notwithstanding the continuous bickering and the ferocious internecine wars. In a scenario where there is a strong dinasty on the throne (and the kings know where their money comes from) Renaissance might even come earlier than it did, and certainly the Mediterranean and the Black sea would become Italian lakes.
IMHO, if Mathilda were capable to pull this rabbit out of her hat, her capacity to rely on both the genoese and the pisan navies would make her the most powerful lady in the Mediterranean.

It certianly looks like that might happen, we'll see where this goes.

-----------------------------------
I don't know if I will have time to get to write much over the next few days (maybe even not till next Tuesday) but I'll try to at least get to the Charter of Rights today...no guarantees mind you but I'll try.

Thanks again LordKalvan for the input.


And come on folks I know LK and I are not looking at this thing that much someone out there must have an opinion (good or bad).

 

[Shadow Knight]

As currently in the TL the control a stretch of coastal territory from Bone in the West over to Tunis/Carthage then down the coast (only bulging slightly inward to Kerawin and back towards the coast but it is a tenous hold) all the way over to Tripoli and several miles to the East of that city.

That should be Bona not Bone also called Annaba at some point later. It goes a little bit past that to the West.

 

[LordKalvan]

There are two main trade routes inthe mediterranean: one is obvious [from Italy to Levant and Constantinople/Black sea). The second one is important too (western bound, through the gibraltar straits and along the Spanish/French coast to Flanders). There is a third one, by land [Brenner or Sempione passes, and then Bavaria or Lotharingia toward Flanders]: this might be faster (messages travelled between Venice and the Flanders in less than one week), but it cannot compete with the sea route for bulky items (Flanders woolens going one way, and luxury items from the east - but also Black sea grain - going the other way around).
The difficulties here are mostly created by the Balearics (Saracens) and by the Gibraltar passage (which is controlled by Muslim states on both sides).
Taking the Balearics would make a difference; taking Ceuta and the southern part of the straits would be even better.

I agree that the Sicily Normans are the best candidates for a North African crusade; maybe Pisa and Genoa are going further west. This might even be the stepping stone for further adventures [in particular if - as I saw you hinting - Venice might take Egypt, and get a stranglehold over the Red sea trade routes].

What are you going to do with Robert Curthose? OTL, he inherited Normandy in 1087, at the death of his father, but he did not prove a great ruler. TTL, he might still get Normandy (or maybe not), but he would be likely to remain with Mathilda, and have the duchy governed in absence (which might be a net gain, both for him and his subjects). Still, Normandy should become a stepping stone on the route to Flanders, and gain from this.

Next week I'll be away, and I'm not sure I can post. Still you should have some food for thoughts.

 

[Shadow Knight]

There are two main trade routes inthe mediterranean: one is obvious [from Italy to Levant and Constantinople/Black sea). The second one is important too (western bound, through the gibraltar straits and along the Spanish/French coast to Flanders). There is a third one, by land [Brenner or Sempione passes, and then Bavaria or Lotharingia toward Flanders]: this might be faster (messages travelled between Venice and the Flanders in less than one week), but it cannot compete with the sea route for bulky items (Flanders woolens going one way, and luxury items from the east - but also Black sea grain - going the other way around).
The difficulties here are mostly created by the Balearics (Saracens) and by the Gibraltar passage (which is controlled by Muslim states on both sides).
Taking the Balearics would make a difference; taking Ceuta and the southern part of the straits would be even better.

The Balaerics I've got a plan for...how plausible the outcome is we'll see (I don't think it is too bad but its a few years off in the TL so I've got some time to mull what I plan.) Thanks that's some good info, i didn't know it took a week to get a messenger that far I figured it would take at least two by horseback but I suppose a messenger regularly changing horses could get there that fast.

I agree that the Sicily Normans are the best candidates for a North African crusade; maybe Pisa and Genoa are going further west. This might even be the stepping stone for further adventures [in particular if - as I saw you hinting - Venice might take Egypt, and get a stranglehold over the Red sea trade routes].

Pisa and Genoa are going to go a bit to the West (I plan on Aragon being friendly for a bit, remember that joint expedition to the Balearics (a clue as to what might happen there), but then vying for supremacy in the Western Med. as the Italians get a bit distracted elsewhere.)

What do you know of the Almohades? I was thinking that they might try to play the italians (Pisa and Genoa) against each other (no outright fighting but the world of economics can be just as cutthroat) and against the rising Catalonian (Aragon) commercial interests to stay alive without massive conquests (maybe a few port cities have fallen or just have 'italian' or 'Catalonian' sections). But for now I haven't decided too much in that area, but there is going to be push to have the Med become a Christian lake once again...how much or if total I've yet to decide. Realpolik sometimes can make strange bedfellows.

Venice is definetly going to feel a little left out in the Levant, as I said above expect them to get a good deal with the Byzantines, who well need the trade and may not want to become too dominated by a rival power. If Venice is in a weak position at home they can get a good deal. As for Egypt well Venice is certianly going to be looking in that distince direction.

What are you going to do with Robert Curthose? OTL, he inherited Normandy in 1087, at the death of his father, but he did not prove a great ruler. TTL, he might still get Normandy (or maybe not), but he would be likely to remain with Mathilda, and have the duchy governed in absence (which might be a net gain, both for him and his subjects). Still, Normandy should become a stepping stone on the route to Flanders, and gain from this.

Well I didn't mention it but yes he is still Duke of Normandy, and he will be going on the Crusade...but let's just say his fortunes don't necessarily turn out much better for him than in OTL. Now how his daughter turns out well we'll see, she's still a child at the moment and might or might not have a bright future. Just out of curiosity how often did a noblewoman shed herself of her title and go into the Church (young or old) as say a nun or abbotess?

Next week I'll be away, and I'm not sure I can post. Still you should have some food for thoughts.

Next week might be busy for me so you may not miss much but I'll definetly try to get the start of the Crusades up.

 

[LordKalvan]

The Balaerics I've got a plan for...how plausible the outcome is we'll see (I don't think it is too bad but its a few years off in the TL so I've got some time to mull what I plan.) Thanks that's some good info, i didn't know it took a week to get a messenger that far I figured it would take at least two by horseback but I suppose a messenger regularly changing horses could get there that fast..

The balearics are a very important piece of real estate in an age when traders need safe basis. OTL, both Pisa and Genoa tried hard to get a foothold there. TTL, they are significantly stronger. I'd like to see a kind of reverse mirror image of OTL: intead of Aragon expanding into Italy, it might be the other way around. I'm not very much versed into spanish history, but at this time there should not even be a united Aragon, I think (still a county of Barcelon).

Pisa and Genoa are going to go a bit to the West (I plan on Aragon being friendly for a bit, remember that joint expedition to the Balearics (a clue as to what might happen there), but then vying for supremacy in the Western Med. as the Italians get a bit distracted elsewhere.).

See my point above. OTL, the sea-faring republic were everywhere, notwithstanding their internecine wars. In a TL where they are forced to cooperate, it will be very difficult to stop them.

What do you know of the Almohades? I was thinking that they might try to play the italians (Pisa and Genoa) against each other (no outright fighting but the world of economics can be just as cutthroat) and against the rising Catalonian (Aragon) commercial interests to stay alive without massive conquests (maybe a few port cities have fallen or just have 'italian' or 'Catalonian' sections). But for now I haven't decided too much in that area, but there is going to be push to have the Med become a Christian lake once again...how much or if total I've yet to decide. Realpolik sometimes can make strange bedfellows..

I don't know much about Almohades either. In the 11th/12th century they should still be vigorous, and I am not so sure they might be willing to give a lot of privileges to traders. Rather, i can imagine Pisa/Genoa taking and holding some fortress along the coast.

Venice is definetly going to feel a little left out in the Levant, as I said above expect them to get a good deal with the Byzantines, who well need the trade and may not want to become too dominated by a rival power. If Venice is in a weak position at home they can get a good deal. As for Egypt well Venice is certianly going to be looking in that distince direction..

Venice has still plenty to do in the Adriatic, and in the Aegean sea, not to mention Constantinople. In the Levant, they may be kept out of a portion of the Christian states, but they will be always welcome in the states not directly controlled by the Italians, or by the Sicily Normans. Again, there might be no war of Chioggia, and less frictions with the other republics (even if a lil piracy on the high sea is always to be expected). So Venice will not be significantly weaker than OTL; they might see a stronger interest in having good relation with the Byzantines [but this was always the case in OTL too: whenever venice went to war with the eastern empire, it was because other cities were encroaching on their trading rights].

Well I didn't mention it but yes he is still Duke of Normandy, and he will be going on the Crusade...but let's just say his fortunes don't necessarily turn out much better for him than in OTL. Now how his daughter turns out well we'll see, she's still a child at the moment and might or might not have a bright future. Just out of curiosity how often did a noblewoman shed herself of her title and go into the Church (young or old) as say a nun or abbotess?.

The child of Robert is the heiress to one of the most powerful duchies in Europe. No way she will be allowed to renounce her title. Or are you considering a war? Relations between Robert and his kin were always from bad to worse: I do not see him giving Normandy to one of them. Robert has also a goodly number of years to live (OTL, he died in 1134). By the time of his death, his daughter will be middle aged, and likely to be married and with children. Unless....you would have to posit his daughter having a very big religious crisis, with visions, stygmatas and all that jazz. She might publicly renounce the world, and go on to found her own monastic order (a kind of St. Catherine or St. Francis a hundred years earlier). This would significantly stress Robert's relations with the pope, and with Mathilda too. It might be fun, though: in Northern Italy, the Pataris are already active, if I remember right: this might make a strong impression over a young girl.

Next week might be busy for me so you may not miss much but I'll definetly try to get the start of the Crusades up.

Ok. I'll what you produce.

 

[Shadow Knight]

The balearics are a very important piece of real estate in an age when traders need safe basis. OTL, both Pisa and Genoa tried hard to get a foothold there. TTL, they are significantly stronger. I'd like to see a kind of reverse mirror image of OTL: intead of Aragon expanding into Italy, it might be the other way around. I'm not very much versed into spanish history, but at this time there should not even be a united Aragon, I think (still a county of Barcelon).

Yes at the moment I believe they are counties of France but I don't see how what has happened so far would necessarily impede the course of events in Iberia...I could be wrong as I need to look into a few things before I can truly believe that. Either way I think I have a way to achieve what I want to do but the path there may be different.

See my point above. OTL, the sea-faring republic were everywhere, notwithstanding their internecine wars. In a TL where they are forced to cooperate, it will be very difficult to stop them.

I'd imagine so but they will be stronger some places and more spread thin elsewhere. But a good point to remember none-the-less.

I don't know much about Almohades either. In the 11th/12th century they should still be vigorous, and I am not so sure they might be willing to give a lot of privileges to traders. Rather, i can imagine Pisa/Genoa taking and holding some fortress along the coast.

Okay that is what I thought might happen but wasn't for sure...another thing I'll have to look into. Wasn't Algiers founded by a European power mucking about in that area (Portugal or Spain maybe)? Maybe this time it will be an Italian expidition.

Venice has still plenty to do in the Adriatic, and in the Aegean sea, not to mention Constantinople. In the Levant, they may be kept out of a portion of the Christian states, but they will be always welcome in the states not directly controlled by the Italians, or by the Sicily Normans. Again, there might be no war of Chioggia, and less frictions with the other republics (even if a lil piracy on the high sea is always to be expected). So Venice will not be significantly weaker than OTL; they might see a stronger interest in having good relation with the Byzantines [but this was always the case in OTL too: whenever venice went to war with the eastern empire, it was because other cities were encroaching on their trading rights].

Good points to keep in mind.

The child of Robert is the heiress to one of the most powerful duchies in Europe. No way she will be allowed to renounce her title. Or are you considering a war? Relations between Robert and his kin were always from bad to worse: I do not see him giving Normandy to one of them. Robert has also a goodly number of years to live (OTL, he died in 1134). By the time of his death, his daughter will be middle aged, and likely to be married and with children. Unless....you would have to posit his daughter having a very big religious crisis, with visions, stygmatas and all that jazz. She might publicly renounce the world, and go on to found her own monastic order (a kind of St. Catherine or St. Francis a hundred years earlier). This would significantly stress Robert's relations with the pope, and with Mathilda too. It might be fun, though: in Northern Italy, the Pataris are already active, if I remember right: this might make a strong impression over a young girl.

I haven't quite decided what is going to happen to Robert other than he is definetly going on the Crusade. He might die there or come back and try something against his brother (they squabbled quite a bit). As for Constance she might succeed him I haven't quite decided what to do with her. Although I had given thought to something along the lines what you mentioned above...could be interesting. (I can't let this family have too of an easy ride wouldn't be plausible if the shit didn't hit the fan at least some of the time. )

My question was more along the lines of Matilda, she died of gout only about 15 years or so, IIRC, from where the TL is now, and I was wondering at what point where she might decide in favor of her son to 'retire' to a life of piety in her remaining years (I'm aware that a good many pious nobility did this when they had competent heirs and they had gotten along in years.).

Ok. I'll what you produce.

Thanks, if it weren't for you this TL would be not as good, and well this thread would be pretty empty since you are the only one replying to it (besides myself).

 

[LordKalvan]

You know, it is quite funny that there are almost 1000 readings, and not a single comment.

I was thinking about mathilda: her life has changed, and she is still quite vigorous. I am under the impression that in OTL she died of gout, true, but her demise was accelerated by the hardships of her fight against Henry IV, and her very difficult private life. The revolts in her domains (Mantua and Lucca foremost) did not help at all. TTL it would be quite different.

I am quite doubtful that she will retire: there is a chance, though. Maybe going to Normandy with Robert, and leaving the rule of her domains to Boniface. Or devoting herself to a reform of the church, and helping the poors (which she did OTL).

Saint Mathilda anyone?

 

[Shadow Knight]

You know, it is quite funny that there are almost 1000 readings, and not a single comment.

Well except for that one poster who asked if I did the borders on the map you have been the only one. What does a guy have to do to get people to respond around here?

I was thinking about mathilda: her life has changed, and she is still quite vigorous. I am under the impression that in OTL she died of gout, true, but her demise was accelerated by the hardships of her fight against Henry IV, and her very difficult private life. The revolts in her domains (Mantua and Lucca foremost) did not help at all. TTL it would be quite different.

That's a good point, I looked on Wikipedia about gout and man that is not something you want to get (Good thing they got drugs for that stuff now but all the same I'd pass.). I can't recall if it is situational/enviromental causes that inflict gout or a genetic one, but I'm going to go on the assumption and say she is going to have it in this TL.

I am quite doubtful that she will retire: there is a chance, though. Maybe going to Normandy with Robert, and leaving the rule of her domains to Boniface. Or devoting herself to a reform of the church, and helping the poors (which she did OTL).

Saint Mathilda anyone?

It was more of the latter that I had in mind (maybe not Sainthood but we'll see if what I have in mind flies or not).

Again thanks LordKalvan for your input.

 

[LordKalvan]

Well, it is a bit early for a St. Francis, but maybe there is someone else around of the same ilk. I think the Patari might be the best bet. Mathilda had always a weakness for churchmen full of fire (Ildebrando of Soana is the most prominent one), and she tried to relieve the sufferences of her subjects.
Maybe it would the case of a church reform starting from within, not forced from without. Still you need a good (if not a great) pope. The Roman Curia will be certain to resist.

I'm happy that once again we think along similar lines.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Well, it is a bit early for a St. Francis, but maybe there is someone else around of the same ilk. I think the Patari might be the best bet. Mathilda had always a weakness for churchmen full of fire (Ildebrando of Soana is the most prominent one), and she tried to relieve the sufferences of her subjects.
Maybe it would the case of a church reform starting from within, not forced from without. Still you need a good (if not a great) pope. The Roman Curia will be certain to resist.

I'm happy that once again we think along similar lines.

Something to keep in mind, thanks.

A quick rewrite and then on to the next part.

[Rewrite]

1094 AD -

(December) Henry arrives in Rome only to find out that Pope Urban II had left upon an urgent task and has commanded that Henry wait until he returns. Henry, not amused, is left cooling his heals as a guest of the Pope until his return several months later.

[/Rewrite]

 

[Shadow Knight]

Part III: Dieu le veut!

1095 AD - (cont.)

(Early March) Pope Urban II arrived at the Council of Piacenza (Located in Northern Italy,) where many Italian, Burgundian, and French bishops met. Thousands of Church officials and laymen attended the Council forcing the Council to be held outside the city. Several important visitors were attending seeking audience with the Pope including several ambassadors from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus.

The ambassadors were charged with seeking Western aid in reclaiming land lost to the Seljuk. This threat to the Empire and Jerusalem was taken quite seriously, even more so than Alexius and his ambassadors had expected. Pope Urban II called for an even greater council to be held in November at Clermont, in France, to address this issue.

(Early April) Pope Urban II returned to Rome to meet with Henry IV, in tow was Henry’s wife Adelaide (Praxedis) who had complained to the Pope of Henry’s affairs at the Council in Piacenza. The meeting between Henry IV and Urban II was not as tumultuous as many had predicted or expected it to be. Henry left the meeting a much chastised man. For his affront to the Church and God he was commanded to build a great Cathedral in the city of Worms and denounce his puppet Pope Clement III. For his affront against his fellow man he was to uphold his agreements that he made in November of 1094 with Matilda of Canossa and her allies. (It is said in some historical documents that Urban II had a third affront that Henry had to do penance for, one to his wife. What this exactly was remains unknown but it is known with some assurance that for the rest of his life Henry IV quite dutiful in his husbandly duties to his wife.)

Henry along with his wife began their journey to return to Germany.

Conrad also returned to Germany to tour the land as the anointed King of Germany and begin solving the complex political issues that had arisen with the fallout from Henry’s defeat and capture in Italy.

(Late April) Clement III solidifies his hold on the territories under his control (Ferrara in the North down to Ancona in the South,). Additional forces that had broken off from the Army returning to Germany swelled his ranks. Clement also denounced the statements made by Henry IV in support of Urban II as nothing but lies from the false Pope Urban II (from his point of view).

(Summer) Boniface clashes with elements of Clement III’s forces near the city of Urbino, in the March of Ancona. The city is held firmly by Clement’s forces however the population chafes at the additional taxes and duties emplaced upon them by Clement to support his expanded military forces. The fighting will last most of the summer but be mostly inconclusive as his forces are too depleted from the fighting less than a year before. Clement’s forces maintain a mostly defensive posture with only a short abortive attempt to move on Bologna.

(September) Matilda, with the conflict with Henry IV abated, attempted to honor her vow of years before to conclude an agreement with the great cities inhabiting her demesnes. She sends out invitations to many cities, even some currently occupied by Clement III (The story of one Theodore of Lucca delivering this missive to prominent citizens of Ravenna, the stronghold of Clement III, and returning with an envoy is told in the popular tale The Cloak, the Flute, and the Candle.). It will take months of negotiation to get several of these cities just to agree to come, Pisa being the foremost in their distrust. (They were not happy with Matilda forcing Henry to rescind some of his promises to their cities in exchange for his freedom.)

(October) The town of Urbino revolts against Clement’s forces. The short lived rebellion is ruthlessly crushed by Clement’s forces. Boniface caught off guard by this vows to not let another opportunity such as this be wasted.

(Mid-November) The Council of Clermont begins. It will address many issues confronting the Church, but it was at the end of November that the climax of the council occurred. Hoping to heal the Great Schism of 40 years past Pope Urban II gave a passionate sermon to the nobles and clergy of France to set aside the violence to fellow Christians and turn their swords upon God’s service. He called them to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims (later letters to other sections of Europe would mention helping Alexius I but emphasis on this had fallen). He spoke of rewards on both Heaven and Earth where sins would be forgiven for any who might die in the quest. With cries of Deus Vult and/or Dieu le veut (Latin and French for ‘God wills it’) the crowd was moved to passionate enthusiasm.

For the next several months Urban II traveled France spreading the word. He also encouraged his bishops and legates to spread the word in their own diocese elsewhere in France, Italy, and Germany. Pope Urban II plans for the middle of August to be when the armies set out.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part IIIb will come as soon as I get some more time.

 

[LordKalvan]

Good posting, SK. Things start to fall in place.
The choice of Piacenza for the council of the church is a good one: Piacenza was a comital seat of Mathilda, and security was assured.
I'm a bit surprised by Clement III putting up such a fight: I was under the impression that he was certainly ambitious, but not a great leader. Resisting the combined forces of the Canossas and the HRE (at least formally Henry IV must put up a show of fealty to the pope) is more than what I would have expected from him. I was anticipating Clement renouncing his papacy, and making obeisance to the pope. Then he might be restored to an arch-bishopric (not Ravenna, maybe) after a token penance.
OTOH, Clement might have found some unexpected depths inside himself: it might be interesting if the worst sins of the established church could be identified with the anti-pope. It would make a reform of the church more easy.
What is Robert the Guiscard doing? And what's happening in Flanders/Burgundy/Lotharingia?

 

[Shadow Knight]

Good posting, SK. Things start to fall in place.
The choice of Piacenza for the council of the church is a good one: Piacenza was a comital seat of Mathilda, and security was assured.

Thanks, I wish I could take credit but that is where they went in OTL and thought it was such a good place I might as well use it.

I'm a bit surprised by Clement III putting up such a fight: I was under the impression that he was certainly ambitious, but not a great leader. Resisting the combined forces of the Canossas and the HRE (at least formally Henry IV must put up a show of fealty to the pope) is more than what I would have expected from him. I was anticipating Clement renouncing his papacy, and making obeisance to the pope. Then he might be restored to an arch-bishopric (not Ravenna, maybe) after a token penance.

Well I gave some thought to having him (among others) just surrender and seek what terms they could (some will, some won't) but well where would the fun be in that. Seriously though what I saw was Clement III sitting and waiting to see what would happen all the while gathering the most fanatical of Henry's forces that he could (not all of them by a long shot and some of them are just mercenaries looking for a job) just in case an opportunity arose to do something or at the least should he have to bargain from a stronger position than what he was in.

OTOH, Clement might have found some unexpected depths inside himself: it might be interesting if the worst sins of the established church could be identified with the anti-pope. It would make a reform of the church more easy.

That's what I kind of decided on, that circumstances have changed him a bit to be made of a bit sterner stuff. The war hadn't gone as well as in OTL and he has had to make due with more setbacks but yet persevere.

Urban II might very well use Clement III as an excuse to ram home even more extensive reforms than he otherwise might have (apparently he did quite a bit from what little reading I've done). Will he get a chance to curtail the sale of indulgences before they get a start in this TL, or will he die before they even get started? (He wasn't a big fan of simony so I don't think he'd be to enthusiastic about indulgences.)

...and besides I need my villian.

What is Robert the Guiscard doing? And what's happening in Flanders/Burgundy/Lotharingia?

I believe Robert Guiscard died outside Tripoli (Libya) IIRC just as the city was falling. Leaving his second son in charge of his holdings (Bohemund having drowned as his ship was returning from Greece.) The Sicilian Normans have been spending the time consolidating their hold on Southern Italy, Sicily (not all areas have fallen just yet), and pushing the borders out in the newly won territory in North Africa. They will play a part in the Crusades but most of their energy will be confined to North Africa for the time being.

Flanders/Frisia is biding their time to reclaim some territory taken by the bishop of Ultrecht (IIRC that is who it was.) in support of Henry IV. Conrad will probably rectify this as he progresses the realm but events may outpace him. As for the Lorraines some interesting things might be happening there in the not too distant future.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Here
Part IIIb A Crusading We Will Go…

1096 AD –

(February) A deft game of politics between father and son (Henry IV and Conrad) begins as both gather support within the Kingdom of Germany by placing men and vassals in important offices and positions.

(March) Conrad and Felicia celebrate the birth of their daughter Liutgard.

Boniface and Godfrey clash with elements of Clement’s forces near Ancona.

(April) The spread of the word among the faithful to reclaim Jerusalem (and help Alexius I of course) had garnered a response far beyond the expectations of Urban II. A mass migration that over the course of time would number over a hundred thousand (mostly made up of unskilled fighters, peasants, women, children, poor knights, and a smattering of smaller nobles and their retainers). A monk by the name of Peter ‘the Hermit’ of Amiens became the leader of a large number of these people and would lead them to Constantinople, arriving after much trouble in August, in what will become known as the Peasant’s or People’s Crusade.

(May) Conrad arrives in Saxony while touring Germany gathering support.

An uprising in the city of Bimini (held by Clement III) is an opportunity that Boniface could not pass up and took good advantage of. Leaving his brother Godfrey to siege Urbino (weakened from the uprising from the year before) Boniface marched his forces to Bimini in record time and negotiated with the citizens of the city who, although they didn’t control the entire city, held the fortress and several key gates.

Clement III was caught off-guard by this action and quickly found his territories cut in two. In the North he still held Ferrara, Ravenna (his seat), and Faenza. In the South he held Urbino (under siege), Sinigaglia, and Ancona.

(June) Small groups of knights and peasants begin to persecute Jews throughout Europe as they begin the march to Jerusalem. Those actions were condemned by the Church as well as Henry IV and Conrad (one of the few things they both agreed upon at the time; taking money from them to finance the Crusade was one thing, killing them wholesale was another). The culmination of the situation came to a head when Conrad on his progression from Saxony to the Lorraine/Lotharingian Duchies encountered Emicho, Count of Flonheim, as he marched north towards Cologne killing and pillaging Jewish communities to finance his army on the Crusades.

Emicho’s forces numbered around ten thousand, some of them women and children, while Conrad was only able to muster a few thousand (local nobles, supplying the bulk of those forces, who are either loyal to Conrad or Henry but as both are against these attacks on the Jews it allows Conrad to gather more support than he otherwise might have). Realizing he is badly outnumbered and in a poor tactical position Conrad made a quick and fateful decision. He galloped with only his personal standard bearer within earshot of the assembled host and made an impassioned plea to remind them of what their holy mission was. It wasn’t until the end of his impromptu speech that he famously asked, “Will you follow me unto the walls of Sacred Jerusalem? Will you follow me unto the gates of Heaven?” With a thunderous roar Conrad had won over the host.

The only conflict that occurred that day was when a group that had followed Emicho claimed he had eaten a duck for his dinner that possessed the Holy Spirit and killed him as he slept.* Needless to say the culprits were caught and hung.

*You just can’t make this stuff up. Apparently there was a group of Emicho’s followers that worshipped a duck that they believed was to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Guess he should have paid more attention to where his cook got his dinner. Sadly in OTL Emicho did not meet such a fate…the fate of the duck is unknown in the annals of history though.

Conrad now apparently leading a section of the Crusade (there was no set leadership for the Crusade but Conrad was now the only crowned king [Italy and Germany] to participate, thus making him the senior in rank) persuaded the Jews of the Rhineland to help finance a portion of the Crusade. (After saving many Jews from death, force conversion, etc. they were more than willing.)

Over the next several months Conrad would gather many groups (not all of them some would go into Hungary immediately like Peter the Hermit’s group and cause trouble there and throughout the Balkans) of Saxons, Lorrainers, Swabians, Bohemians, Italians, etc. under his banner and join the other princes of Europe (Robert Curthose, Duke of Normandy (Husband of Matilda of Canossa), Raymond IV of Toulouse, Count Robert II of Flanders, Eustace and Baldwin of Boulogne, Godfrey of Bouillon, Count Stephen of Blois, Hugh of Vermandois brother to King Philip I of France, and Tancred, grandson of Robert Guiscard) as they began their journey to Constantinople to begin their trek to Jerusalem.

**Note**
Many of the German knights that would accompany Peter in OTL instead join with their king, Conrad, cutting the number with Peter down by half.

(July) Henry IV stops a smaller but similar group of rampaging knights in Bohemia from doing similar assaults on Jews in and around Prague.

Matilda of Canossa finally gets agreements from the cities of Northern Italy to meet in September at a neutral location within the city of Rome.

Clement III tries to relieve the siege at Urbino but his forces from Ancona become bogged down with supply issues and forced to withdraw before any fighting takes place.

(August) Under their spiritual leader Adhemar of Le Puy, the papal legate, the Crusade known as the Princes’ Crusade (Unlike the one under Peter the Hermit which will be known as the Peasant’s or People’s Crusade.) began to leave for Constantinople and would not arrive their until December.

Peter the Hermit’s band of followers arrive in Constantinople under Byzantine escort after fighting several battles in Hungary and in Byzantium. Alexius I confused and unsure was to what to do with this ‘army’ quickly ferried them across the Bosporus where several smaller bands of began to pillage villages against the advice of Alexius who urged Peter to wait until the rest of the Crusaders arrived.

(Early September) Matilda and the envoys begin meeting to discuss an agreement between them and her house. A papal envoy is mediating the assembly.

(Late September) A force of several thousand of Peter’s forces (they had broken off from the main force intent upon looting the countryside) made up of French, Italian, and Germans seize the city of Xerigordon to use as a base to raid the country side. Peter urged them to wait but he had lost much of his authority of his army to a Frenchmen, Walter Sans-Avoir, who it should be noted didn’t approve of this either. After nine days this force is annihilated when thirst drives them to make an attempt to break through the Turkish forces, those not killed were sold off into slavery.

(October) With Peter in Constantinople arranging for supplies Walter led an army of over twenty thousand towards Nicaea leaving only those not able to fight behind in camp. In a narrow wooded valley near the town of Dracon the Turks ambushed the Crusader’s army. Only four thousand escaped to an old abandoned castle, which the Byzantines eventually sailed over and raised the siege. Those men would again come under Peter’s leadership and wait for the rest of the Crusaders to arrive before returning to Asia.

(November) Urbino falls to Godfrey’s forces when a mercenary company in charge of the gates switches sides. The rest of the garrison surrenders after only putting up a token resistance.

(December) The rest of the Crusaders arrived outside the walls of Constantinople by various paths. Most arrive with little to no supplies (Only those forces under Conrad and Robert Curthose, courtesy of his wife Matilda, had adequate supplies). Those forces expecting Alexius to provision them were asked to swear an oath of allegiance to return any land taken from the Turks and return it to the Byzantines. All but Conrad and Robert were forced to take the oath, while many pleaded with Conrad to aid them with supplies he had a hard enough time just supplying his own forces let alone the tens of thousands of others.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy, part IIIc again as soon as I get some time to do it.

 

[LordKalvan]

Good work, SK.
Two small things:
- it is Rimini, and not Bimini
- I cannot believe that one of the sons of Mathilda is not going crusading. I suppose it should be Godfrey (Boniface is needed in Italy): make it a vow taken at the siege of Urbino, or at the taking of Rimini. A great lady like Mathilda, with the support (the very interested support) of Pisa and Genoa should be able to finance a good show.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Good work, SK.
Two small things:
- it is Rimini, and not Bimini

Gaahh!!! No wonder when I did a search for it all I could find was information on the island in the Bahamas (nice place btw), well chalk that up to not looking at the map close enough.

- I cannot believe that one of the sons of Mathilda is not going crusading. I suppose it should be Godfrey (Boniface is needed in Italy): make it a vow taken at the siege of Urbino, or at the taking of Rimini. A great lady like Mathilda, with the support (the very interested support) of Pisa and Genoa should be able to finance a good show.

Oh one of them will be showing up in the not too far future. I didn't mention it yet, but the two Canossa boys (when it is said like that is sounds like something out of Dukes of Hazzard...just had this weird image of a orange car with a confederate flag on the hood tooling around a middle ages battlefield fleeing from some knights with the car horn playing Dixie... ) have a temporary papal dispensation relieving them of their crusading duty while they are dealing with the anti-pope Clement III. Who is in a relatively strong position in Italy and thus a threat that needs to be dealt with immediatly. This situation should not last too much longer though leaving plenty of time for one of our plucky heroes to make it in time for some Crusading action.

I did give some thought to having Matlida go herself, but she is dealing with the cities currently. Besides Urban II did not want women, children, etc. to go, but for some reason I could see him making an exception for her.