A Fitter Italian Military

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Next instalment is up... a bit of a look forward for the Italians as they're not doing much and won't be for a while yet, so a snapshot into where they're evolving.

As to the evolution of German tanks, I would welcome input and debate as to the form. From the Eastern Front the Germans built Russified panzers... without encountering KV's do they Frenchify their panzers, or does the Panther and Tiger owe as much to the German view of tanks as the Russian?
 
In OTL "German combat experience with the French Somua S35 cavalry tanks, Char B1 heavy tanks, and the Matilda I and Matilda II infantry tanks in June 1940 showed that the German Army's Panzer arm needed a heavier and better armed tank with better armour protection. Superior German tactics overcame the problems with the superior enemy armoured units but the Germans did take notice." So the Tiger would prob be the same in this TL as OTL, the Panther was as a direct result of combat against the T-34.

What you might get is the long barrled Panzer IV sooner, production starting in mid 1940 as Hitler did order production of a long barriled Panzer IV in 1940.

Hope this helps :)
 
you might also get a push for a more reliable tank that last longer before needing maintenance. In OTL with the Germans blitzing through France (and later the SU) the Germans were winning quite quickly and until the tide turned in '42 were generally left in command of the battlefield. This allowed them to reclaim tanks for repair or spare parts, etc. IIRC most tanks just broke down and had to be reclaimed after the battle in this case the Germans are not making the gains they did in OTL (and in some cases reversals) and are likely not recovering as many tanks. So there may be a push for more reliability in German tanks.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, this TL is certainly living up to its name.

I agree with SK's point re. reliability, although I would have thought that the same lesson would be there in Russia, and it certainly didn't produce a reliable tank (the Panther)...though I suppose you could argue that the Panther was rushed into production, and here the French don't have a T-34-type absolute advantage that the Germans have to scramble to match.
 
Well, this TL is certainly living up to its name.

I agree with SK's point re. reliability, although I would have thought that the same lesson would be there in Russia, and it certainly didn't produce a reliable tank (the Panther)...though I suppose you could argue that the Panther was rushed into production, and here the French don't have a T-34-type absolute advantage that the Germans have to scramble to match.

Well for starters the Germans had a bit of a problem of over engineering things but they were certainly capable of turning that down a notch when needed.

As for the Panther I believe you are correct in that it wasn't as thoroughly tested and vetted before fielding but I've read that those units that got them thought highly of them when they weren't breaking down. Again though by the time the Germans got the Panther though they were often on the retreat and were not able to reclaim those tanks that just broke down (which the Panther was prone to do).

Honestly I can see the Germans going two ways from their experience in France. The first case is building and designing some slow monstrous tank that is useful for fighting in the hedge rows and good infrastructure of France but end up being terrible in say the plains of Russia. While a knee jerk response to the current situation in France/Belgium might lead them that route. A slightly smaller Tiger tank is kind of what I'm seeing here and its use would be primarily infantry support.

The second and more likely case IMO is that they are going to look at having a two tier tank force. The first tier is basically an early MBT. It is good at a lot of things but doesn't go to the extremes. This is going to come about from revisions to the *blitzkrieg doctrine that is going to be revised after the war in France. Their use is to go directly up against enemy tanks and survive, and be the spearhead of the new *blitzkrieg tactics. A long barreled Pz IV would be a good start for this type of tank but a more reliable Panther would be the long term goal. The second tier would be tank destroyers and lots of them. Lightly armored, speedy, and with a BFG attached this thing is for direct infantry support and operating on an independent basis keeping enemy armor from penetrating their own lines. The TDs offer both defensive and offensive capabilities. You wouldn't deploy directly against a tank (as they'd end up a burning wreck after one shot) but having them support the MBTs by flanking enemy tanks is useful. And a well dug in TD can do a lot damage to unsuspecting enemy tanks.

Just my two cents.
 
In terms of reliability many of the tanks the Germans are confronting are equally or as unreliable. So in that sense I think the idea of improving reliability is hindsight; put it another way if there was a room full of German tank experts arguing about next steps, I wouldn't expect a significant proportion of the room passionately extolling the virtues of reliability. For as long as the German approach remains artisan-like hand tooling looking at quality, I think reliability issues would be accepted as a necessary trade off.


Speeding up the long-barrel Mk IV would surely be the most cost effective first step. OTL as I understand it the 75mm Mk IV turns up around 1942, with some playing around with a 50mm in 1941. ITTL the 50mm upgrade might be deemed sufficient to meet what was being encountered on the Western Front, but whether or not they would have wanted to take the next step is also an option. The Char mounted a 75mm and this may well contribute to the development of SK's 'mini-Tiger'; a tank that can take on heavy enemy battle tanks where met.

Such an evolution would see the Mk III take on the role of the light tank, superseding the Mk 1 and Mk II; the Mk IV continues its role as an infantry tank, with a stop-gap off shoot to take on enemy armour; and the Mk IV comes in as the heavy hitter. I don't really see a Panther emerging, with its wide track, large road wheels and heavily sloped armor, unless its an act of German tank design genius.

The TD angle is a good point and worth a look; I hadn't traced its parallel development yet.
 
In terms of reliability many of the tanks the Germans are confronting are equally or as unreliable. So in that sense I think the idea of improving reliability is hindsight; put it another way if there was a room full of German tank experts arguing about next steps, I wouldn't expect a significant proportion of the room passionately extolling the virtues of reliability. For as long as the German approach remains artisan-like hand tooling looking at quality, I think reliability issues would be accepted as a necessary trade off.

Well yeah but a lot of the reliability issues in OTL were acceptable to the Germans because their doctrine was working. Blitz through, surround and decimate your enemy, occupy the field of battle and move on, and then the clean up crew comes in and fixes the busted down tanks, those that can be repaired from battle damage, or those that can be scavenged for spare parts. When the Germans went on the defensive on the Eastern Front or later withdrawing this doctrine caused some serious issues to the Germans in available tanks.

ITTL this isn't the case. Here the Germans haven't been able to successfully pull off their doctrine and while in most cases they've retained the field of battle there is enough cases where they haven't. This is going to impact the number of tank available for combat. I'm not saying they are going to be pushing for a tank that never breaks down but an increase in reliability (say a 10~20% increase in reliability) over the older models during the testing and vetting phase.

Speeding up the long-barrel Mk IV would surely be the most cost effective first step. OTL as I understand it the 75mm Mk IV turns up around 1942, with some playing around with a 50mm in 1941. ITTL the 50mm upgrade might be deemed sufficient to meet what was being encountered on the Western Front, but whether or not they would have wanted to take the next step is also an option. The Char mounted a 75mm and this may well contribute to the development of SK's 'mini-Tiger'; a tank that can take on heavy enemy battle tanks where met.

I think the 50mm was a stop gap as the factories were not ready to mass produce 75mm tank barrels in the quantity needed, but you might be able to play with those dates a bit if needed.

I agree the 75mm Char (if available in enough numbers to make an impact) would likely instigate a design of a 'mini-Tiger' as we are calling it. It makes sense from a German perspective to do something now, but if overdone it might have long range difficulties if they adopt this their main tank. Cause it is going to be slow and certainly not very useful outside of attacking cities in the East.

Such an evolution would see the Mk III take on the role of the light tank, superseding the Mk 1 and Mk II; the Mk IV continues its role as an infantry tank, with a stop-gap off shoot to take on enemy armour; and the Mk IV comes in as the heavy hitter. I don't really see a Panther emerging, with its wide track, large road wheels and heavily sloped armor, unless its an act of German tank design genius.

The TD angle is a good point and worth a look; I hadn't traced its parallel development yet.

A good example of OTL German WWII TD: The Jagdpanzer 38(t) - Hetzer

A Panther is too advanced a tank for right now (at best early '44) but with the lessons learned in France you'd likely see a more reliable Panther analog a bit earlier and available in numbers on the Eastern Front (assuming your TL even has one).

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An aside issue of this is the availability of experienced German pilots. My guess is most that are shot down over Allied territory are likely being sent to England and when (or if) Germany occupies France are not going to be freed. This might instigate a rotation change in the German air doctrine that will see less uber-aces but better overall training (through those experienced pilots teaching new ones) for German pilots. Instead of the 'fight till you die' doctrine of OTL they may adopt the US's model of where they go on so many missions and then are rotated back to train new pilots.

Just my two cents.
 
ITTL the Germans haven't been able to successfully pull off their doctrine and while in most cases they've retained the field of battle there is enough cases where they haven't. This is going to impact the number of tank available for combat. I'm not saying they are going to be pushing for a tank that never breaks down but an increase in reliability (say a 10~20% increase in reliability) over the older models during the testing and vetting phase.

That's a fair point. For suspension do they go Christie, and spend some time on transmission? I can't see them switching to diesel, but maybe.

I agree the 75mm Char (if available in enough numbers to make an impact) would likely instigate a design of a 'mini-Tiger' as we are calling it. It makes sense from a German perspective to do something now, but if overdone it might have long range difficulties if they adopt this their main tank. Cause it is going to be slow and certainly not very useful outside of attacking cities in the East.

ITTL the Char has been met in numbers (that is concentrated in place) three times: in the Bois de la Marfee at Sedan, in open country at Dinant and in the town of Rocroi. At Sedan and Rocroi where the Char ran out of fuel they became strongpoints that, in light of the surroundings, couldn't easily be bypassed. The Pz V would take this into account [never quite found out why the Panther and Tiger got funky names and others didn't. Seems fair just to keep the present naming protocol going].

For me, I'm envisaging a Pz V that mounts a 75mm gun (I don't think the Germans would see the opportunity of mounting the 88). For weight I'm not sure: would it be contemporaneous such as, say 30 tonnes; or would they be future proofing and bring it up to 45 tonnes, which puts it on a par with the KV1. For armour perhaps a range of 30 to 100mm.


A good example of OTL German WWII TD: The Jagdpanzer 38(t) - Hetzer
QUOTE]

Yes, the Hetzer's funky... though a bit advanced IMHO when you consider the Panzerjager was the first attempt.

An aside issue of this is the availability of experienced German pilots. My guess is most that are shot down over Allied territory are likely being sent to England and when (or if) Germany occupies France are not going to be freed. This might instigate a rotation change in the German air doctrine that will see less uber-aces but better overall training (through those experienced pilots teaching new ones) for German pilots. Instead of the 'fight till you die' doctrine of OTL they may adopt the US's model of where they go on so many missions and then are rotated back to train new pilots.

DeathDemon touched on this earlier. That's an important point and one that bears a lot of consideration given the impact the Luftwaffe has had and, assumedly, will continue to have. I suppose the main question is, for a military that is prepared to accept a fairly high rate of losses in pursuit of its objectives, how high is too high. You're suggesting that there might be some sort of 'Crete syndrome', where a brutalised service arm is forced to change its operational tactic. Good point.
 
That's a fair point. For suspension do they go Christie, and spend some time on transmission? I can't see them switching to diesel, but maybe.

That's a tough call. I think they might but it would be IMO about a 50/50 shot to adopt the Christie suspension with an upgraded transmission. I agree I think diesel is out cause IIRC only the US had really good diesel engines at the time. Which I'm pretty sure were not being built in the US car/truck factories in Germany. But I could be wrong on that account.

ITTL the Char has been met in numbers (that is concentrated in place) three times: in the Bois de la Marfee at Sedan, in open country at Dinant and in the town of Rocroi. At Sedan and Rocroi where the Char ran out of fuel they became strongpoints that, in light of the surroundings, couldn't easily be bypassed. The Pz V would take this into account [never quite found out why the Panther and Tiger got funky names and others didn't. Seems fair just to keep the present naming protocol going].

I thought they were but what about total numbers? I can't recall how many France actually had at the time, and more importantly how many they could replace/build more of.

For me, I'm envisaging a Pz V that mounts a 75mm gun (I don't think the Germans would see the opportunity of mounting the 88). For weight I'm not sure: would it be contemporaneous such as, say 30 tonnes; or would they be future proofing and bring it up to 45 tonnes, which puts it on a par with the KV1. For armour perhaps a range of 30 to 100mm.

They might use an 88mm as it is easier to expand existing production lines than build up a bunch of new 75mm ones (thus leaving the few 75mm gun factories to build the 75mm infantry or artillery guns instead). They also might move to the 88mm in response to whatever the French or British do to upgrade their tanks in response to German advancements.

Yes, the Hetzer's funky... though a bit advanced IMHO when you consider the Panzerjager was the first attempt.

Yeah it is. Their first TDs are likely to be quite like the Panzerjager but if the war is not as pressed they might have a Hetzer with a turret on it instead of just a straight shot or no shot configuration.

DeathDemon touched on this earlier. That's an important point and one that bears a lot of consideration given the impact the Luftwaffe has had and, assumedly, will continue to have. I suppose the main question is, for a military that is prepared to accept a fairly high rate of losses in pursuit of its objectives, how high is too high. You're suggesting that there might be some sort of 'Crete syndrome', where a brutalised service arm is forced to change its operational tactic. Good point.

Yeah a 'Crete syndrome' might very well induce such a thing. If we consider a decent attrition rate during the battle over Belgium and France (which could very well not end with a capture of Paris but be fought all the way down to Marseilles). Then a start of a Battle for Britain analog but due to the lack of experienced pilots causing even higher casualties a change is instituted to a rotation minded doctrine.

Something to think about I suppose.

Btw nice update.
 
Thande: Well, actually they're just the OTL names. Most of them went through a redesign when German liquid cooled engines came available, so I've just melted the two together.

Katanbuilder: Yeah, can't let things go all Mussolini's way.

Shadowknight: this air combat thing is becoming the next big debate after the shape of TTL Pz V. Keep musing.
 
I like the bit about the RM going towards subs rather than surface warships.

I would like to know what is happening in France ?

Thanks:)
 
Shadowknight: this air combat thing is becoming the next big debate after the shape of TTL Pz V. Keep musing.

Well how well are the Stukas doing against the French heavy tanks? I wonder if the Germans, in this case the Luftwaffe, were encountering difficulties against said tanks might put a pretty heavy cannon on those dive bombers, say 37mm to wreck havoc from above. It would be a good marriage between doing that and a new tank design.

Well it comes down to where those captured German pilots go. I'd imagine almost all captured by the forces of the UK would end up somewhere in GB (maybe then on a transport to Canada?) but where are those captured by France (North Africa?) or those captured by Belgium going?
 

Thande

Donor
Nice update (both of them, as you double posted ;) )

I like the stuff about the political sympathies of the RM vs the RA.

The Italians were plenty dangerous enough with torpedo bombers and especially pocket submarines and frogmen in piloted torpedoes in OTL, so goodness knows what they'll be like in TTL...
 
Here are some stats that you might find interesting ?

Panzer Division tank strength 1 September 1939

For Panzer divisions 1 to 5

PzKpfw I = (299) 674

PzKpfw II = (420) 707

PzKpfw III = (46) 41

PzKpfw IV = (81) 117

PzKpfw 35(t) = (112) 0

PzKpfw 38(t) = (55) 0

PzBefh = (52) 86

() = None division strength


Panzer Division tank strength 10 May 1940

For Panzer divisions 1 to 10

PzKpfw I = 554

PzKpfw II = 920

PzKpfw III = 349

PzKpfw IV = 280

PzKpfw 35(t) = 118

PzKpfw 38(t) = 207

PzBefh = 154

This shows how many of the older P I and II still made up the backbone of the Panzer Divisions!!


Source - Panzer Divisions: The Blitzkrieg Years 1939-40 (Osprey Publishing)
 
whatsinaname: thanks for the stats, didn't have that source but corresponds more or less with what I've found. The next instalment will return to France; TTL is about Italy so I needed to provide some sort of update of where they are placed in terms of their fitter military. But the crux of the period is in France and there is a lot to work through. OTL things were over so quickly there is very little material to consider when building a close-to-real ATL.

SK: love the eastern front stuka analogue. A lot of this comes down to how long the fight lasts. As for prisoners, the French ones will go the North Africa I imagine, and the Belgian ones probably to Britain. Be worthwhile at some poitn to have a look at plane losses and compare: recall that ITTL the fighters held back OTL are committed to the front.

Thande: The RM has been an ace up my sleeve for a while now. Great economy of force. Wonder who they'll first encounter...
 
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