A Few Tweaks to the Heirs of Anjou

[Kellan Sullivan]

During the 1390s and 1410s the Capetian house of Anjou went extinct as one by one its heads died without surviving heirs:

First was Marie d'Anjou, Queen of Hungary and Croatia, who in 1395 gave birth to a premature son by her husband, Sigmund of Luxemburg. Both she and the child died.

Next, her sister, Hedwig d'Anjou, Queen of Poland, who gave birth in 1399 to a daughter, Elzbieta, who died shortly before her mother, who it would seem died of post-natal complications.

Then, in 1414, despite having been married three times, King Ladislao of Naples died, leaving a spinster sister as his heir. Giovanna II, Queen of Naples married twice, but remained childless, causing a succession dispute over the Neapolitan throne between the Aragonese and the Angevin dynasties and their heirs.

With a POD in 1395, Marie d'Anjou gives birth to a son who survives (she can still die or not). As a secondary POD, Hedwig gives birth to her child (who is either born male, or Hedwig survives long enough to birth another child who is a son). Eastern Europe is now dominated by two regencies - one for little King Karoly (I assume he'll get Charles over Louis) in Hungary, and another for little King Wladyslaw in Poland.

How does this start to change Europe?

 

[marcinL]

During the 1390s and 1410s the Capetian house of Anjou went extinct as one by one its heads died without surviving heirs:

First was Marie d'Anjou, Queen of Hungary and Croatia, who in 1395 gave birth to a premature son by her husband, Sigmund of Luxemburg. Both she and the child died.

Next, her sister, Hedwig d'Anjou, Queen of Poland, who gave birth in 1399 to a daughter, Elzbieta, who died shortly before her mother, who it would seem died of post-natal complications.

Then, in 1414, despite having been married three times, King Ladislao of Naples died, leaving a spinster sister as his heir. Giovanna II, Queen of Naples married twice, but remained childless, causing a succession dispute over the Neapolitan throne between the Aragonese and the Angevin dynasties and their heirs.

With a POD in 1395, Marie d'Anjou gives birth to a son who survives (she can still die or not). As a secondary POD, Hedwig gives birth to her child (who is either born male, or Hedwig survives long enough to birth another child who is a son). Eastern Europe is now dominated by two regencies - one for little King Karoly (I assume he'll get Charles over Louis) in Hungary, and another for little King Wladyslaw in Poland.

How does this start to change Europe?

Jagiełło wont need to sign a charter of priviledges (dont remember the name and too lazy to check now) to secure his son's inheritance of Poland, which means stronger polish monarchy. Union between Poland and Lithuania should be stronger. Jagiełło might be more decisive against Teutonic Order as he doesnt have to worry who would be the next king of Poland, and how strenghtened Poland would weaken Lithuania's relative position, it's less of an issue now.

 

[Janprimus]

Sigismund and Marie having a son means the house of Luxembourg doesn't go extinct. That means the house of Habsburg will not inherit Bohemia and Hungary at that point, though the imperial election is a bit less certain, though is likely to remain in hands of the house of Luxembourg. This means that the Habsburgs will be 2nd most powerful dynasty in the Empire and still frustrated that the house of Luxembourg denied them an electorate, hence their 'Privilegium Maius' (though they claimed the position of archmaster of the hunt (which was disputed, the Habsburg claim came from Carinthia, though another claimant the margrave of Meissen was also elector of saxony).
I also wonder whether the ever indebted Sigismund will still basically 'sell' the electorate of Brandenburg to the Hohenzollern Burgrave of Nuremberg. Sigmund might fancy it as a region like Wales, Asturias or Dauphiné for his preferred heir in the Holy Roman Empire.
Finally the duchy of Luxembourg wouldn't end up in the hands of Valois-Burgundy, unless Sigismund will approve of a sale of his dynastic ancestral lands to a rival dynasty. Instead the duchy of Luxembourg is likely to become a secundogeniture.

 

[Wendell]

I love threads about these families in these eras. The best bet is to get Ladislaus a different marriage, as he had illegitimate issue historically.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Multiple surviving Anjou lines could easily lead to a war among each other. Remember that Marie of Hungary and Hedwig of Poland's father Louis the Great spent much of his reign trying to claim Naples for himself as the head of the Angevin line. Marie and Sigismund might take up the fight.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Jagiełło wont need to sign a charter of priviledges (dont remember the name and too lazy to check now) to secure his son's inheritance of Poland, which means stronger polish monarchy. Union between Poland and Lithuania should be stronger. Jagiełło might be more decisive against Teutonic Order as he doesnt have to worry who would be the next king of Poland, and how strenghtened Poland would weaken Lithuania's relative position, it's less of an issue now.

Poland would be in a stronger position? Cool. Which might mean that it can develop along a line more like the other Western European monarchies rather than what it did OTL?

Sigismund and Marie having a son means the house of Luxembourg doesn't go extinct. That means the house of Habsburg will not inherit Bohemia and Hungary at that point, though the imperial election is a bit less certain, though is likely to remain in hands of the house of Luxembourg. This means that the Habsburgs will be 2nd most powerful dynasty in the Empire and still frustrated that the house of Luxembourg denied them an electorate, hence their 'Privilegium Maius' (though they claimed the position of archmaster of the hunt (which was disputed, the Habsburg claim came from Carinthia, though another claimant the margrave of Meissen was also elector of saxony).
I also wonder whether the ever indebted Sigismund will still basically 'sell' the electorate of Brandenburg to the Hohenzollern Burgrave of Nuremberg. Sigmund might fancy it as a region like Wales, Asturias or Dauphiné for his preferred heir in the Holy Roman Empire.
Finally the duchy of Luxembourg wouldn't end up in the hands of Valois-Burgundy, unless Sigismund will approve of a sale of his dynastic ancestral lands to a rival dynasty. Instead the duchy of Luxembourg is likely to become a secundogeniture.

I could see the Habsburgs holding a position similar under the Luxemburg dynasty to the Wittelsbachs under the Habsburgs.

That said, how are the Luxemburgs going to get around the fact that the electoral vote for Brandenburg/Bohemia is going to be abolished due to their possession of the other one? And where might it go? AFAIK, the pope originally included the Bohemian king as a way of "keeping thieves honest" so that he could break any tie between the German electors, the German electors saw the Bohemian king as "foreign".

I love threads about these families in these eras. The best bet is to get Ladislaus a different marriage, as he had illegitimate issue historically.

Fair enough. Who might you suggest? Valentina Visconti? Juana of Aragon? Someone else, maybe a Luxemburg?

Multiple surviving Anjou lines could easily lead to a war among each other. Remember that Marie of Hungary and Hedwig of Poland's father Louis the Great spent much of his reign trying to claim Naples for himself as the head of the Angevin line. Marie and Sigismund might take up the fight.

True, and let's not forget that the Neapolitans after Lajos' death had claimed Hungary as well, so I suspect a treaty would be in the works outlining what each (HRE-Hungary vs Naples) can claim and not should the other line die out.

 

[Monter]

That said, how are the Luxemburgs going to get around the fact that the electoral vote for Brandenburg/Bohemia is going to be abolished due to their possession of the other one? And where might it go? AFAIK, the pope originally included the Bohemian king as a way of "keeping thieves honest" so that he could break any tie between the German electors, the German electors saw the Bohemian king as "foreign".

Brandenburg was being under Luxemburg control since Charles IV, there was no law that only one electorate should be held by one guy.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Brandenburg was being under Luxemburg control since Charles IV, there was no law that only one electorate should be held by one guy.

I'm pretty sure there was, since when Karl Theodor succeeded as elector of Bavaria, the title of Elector Palatine of the Rhine fell away. If the Habsburgs had held onto Bavaria in the WotSS, and the Wittelsbachs recompensated with either the Netherlands or Sicily, then the title of elector of Bavaria would've become extinct, since the Habsburgs already held one vote in the Electoral College.

 

[Monter]

I'm pretty sure there was, since when Karl Theodor succeeded as elector of Bavaria, the title of Elector Palatine of the Rhine fell away. If the Habsburgs had held onto Bavaria in the WotSS, and the Wittelsbachs recompensated with either the Netherlands or Sicily, then the title of elector of Bavaria would've become extinct, since the Habsburgs already held one vote in the Electoral College.

Because Bavaria and the Palatine had both the title of Elector Palatine (the Palatinate one being of a lower class), as a consequence of the TYW, once both electorates unified the division became redundant, Brandenburg and Bohemia were very different electorates, so one wouldn't dissolve in favor of another.

 

[Wendell]

Fair enough. Who might you suggest? Valentina Visconti? Juana of Aragon? Someone else, maybe a Luxemburg?

Could be either of them. There's also Anna of Cilli, Anne de Laval, Elizabeth of Bavaria-Landshut, Anne de Bourbon, and, if we can play around with people who died young historically, there's a daughter of John II of Aragon or Andronikos IV of the Eastern Roman Empire.

If we can switch up the birth order of the children of Charles III of Naples, Ladislaus' father, then we have other possibilities, including daughters of Louis the Great of Hungary.....

If, instead, we make Giangaleazzo Visconti's oldest son a daughter, then she too would be a possibility.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Could be either of them. There's also Anna of Cilli, Anne de Bourbon, and, if we can play around with people who died young historically, there's a daughter of John II of Aragon or Andronikos IV of the Eastern Roman Empire.

If we can switch up the birth order of the children of Charles III of Naples, Ladislaus' father, then we have other possibilities, including daughters of Louis the Great of Hungary.....

The marriage negotiations between Ladislao and Aragon hadn't gone so well the last time, so IDK if Juan II is gonna bite this go around.

 

[Wendell]

The marriage negotiations between Ladislao and Aragon hadn't gone so well the last time, so IDK if Juan II is gonna bite this go around.

Perhaps. I edited my post to add other possibilities.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Because Bavaria and the Palatine had both the title of Elector Palatine (the Palatinate one being of a lower class), as a consequence of the TYW, once both electorates unified the division became redundant, Brandenburg and Bohemia were very different electorates, so one wouldn't dissolve in favor of another.

Oops. I thought it was because they weren't allowed to hold more than one electorate.

So that means that the Luxemburgs can count on two votes at the imperial elections for now. (Who votes if the elector is a minor? the Regent?)

Could be either of them. There's also Anna of Cilli, Anne de Laval, Elizabeth of Bavaria-Landshut, Anne de Bourbon, and, if we can play around with people who died young historically, there's a daughter of John II of Aragon or Andronikos IV of the Eastern Roman Empire.

If we can switch up the birth order of the children of Charles III of Naples, Ladislaus' father, then we have other possibilities, including daughters of Louis the Great of Hungary.....

If, instead, we make Giangaleazzo Visconti's oldest son a daughter, then she too would be a possibility.

I think Anna of Celje will still marry Jogaila (I mean, let's face it, child mortality in those days was high, and they would try and not only have one heir). As to the other three, I like Elisabeth of Bavaria, she has a Visconti mother and a Sicilian grandmother, so if the Barcelonids die without issue as OTL, he might take it into his head to claim Sicily through right of his wife (don't say he'd be successful, just that he might do it).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If Sigmund has an heir, the Luxemburg rule in Bohemia (was the crown hereditary or elective?) is secure for another generation, but will he focus on Hungary-Bohemia, the hereditary realms of his little boy (during the regency) or will he turn his attention to "centralizing" the HRE or building up the Luxemburg ties inside the Empire? And how might the presence of this little boy alter Sigmund's relationship with the Hungarian aristocracy?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A bump

 

[Wendell]

I think Anna of Celje will still marry Jogaila (I mean, let's face it, child mortality in those days was high, and they would try and not only have one heir). As to the other three, I like Elisabeth of Bavaria, she has a Visconti mother and a Sicilian grandmother, so if the Barcelonids die without issue as OTL, he might take it into his head to claim Sicily through right of his wife (don't say he'd be successful, just that he might do it).

She may very well, but there will be less of a reason for that precise match if there are already clear heirs for Poland and Hungary who aren't Lithuanian.

If Sigmund has an heir, the Luxemburg rule in Bohemia (was the crown hereditary or elective?) is secure for another generation, but will he focus on Hungary-Bohemia, the hereditary realms of his little boy (during the regency) or will he turn his attention to "centralizing" the HRE or building up the Luxemburg ties inside the Empire? And how might the presence of this little boy alter Sigmund's relationship with the Hungarian aristocracy?

Bohemia, even in this era I believe, viewed its monarchy as elective.

 

[Janprimus]

(...)

Bohemia, even in this era I believe, viewed its monarchy as elective.

The house of Luxembourg had a hereditary succession, like the previous Premyslid dynasty. It started to change during the Hussite Wars; and it seems that early death of Ladislaus Postumus, ensured the shift from hereditary to elective. Even then generally the Estates chose or acknowledged the same successor as the heir under hereditary succession.