A few questions: episode 2, Yougoslavia and Rommel

[Ethan387]

Ok so I'm working on a timeline where instead of WWII there is 2 separate wars. One in Russia one in colonial North Africa. So first of all how do I get a German allied yougoslavia that includes Bulgaria? Second would it be at all plausible for yougoslavia to include the caucuses after the russian war and the German civil war is over?

So a little background before I go on. Poland agrees to give up Danzig and a bit of land when they realize how shitty their military is and germany promises to protect them from the Soviets. In May 1940 germany, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Finland, and ûber Yougoslavia participate in a war where Russia strikes first, they get pretty far and then the tide turns and I'm not sure how far this coalition would get. At least Belarus and Ukrain and caucuses tho. (Karelia and baltics too)

So how much further could they get?

Then the Russians loose and the Germans begin a long trek home. However on this way home some regular Wehrmacht forces come across a concentration... City. Needless to say this is what causes the German Civil War. (SS Vs. Wehrmacht) I was thinking Rommel would be a good Franco style Fascists leader of germany afterwards but is there a better general in the Wehrmacht for this role?

I know it's a lot but I've been stuck on these for a while. Thanks in advance!

 

[nbcman]

The Wehrmacht was already aware of organized killing activities by the Einsatzgruppen and were in many cases complicit in the killings. Your idea that the Wehrmacht would revolt because they see a concentration camp or city doesn't work.

I am sure others will chime in on the realism of the Germans and minor allies being able to force the Soviets into a condition where they 'lose' in a TL where the Germans don't have the resources of Western Europe to draw upon.

 

[Ethan387]

A) POD in 39' so in this TL no.

B) that's why I asked.

 

[nbcman]

A) POD in 39' so in this TL no.

B) that's why I asked.

Why is it no for Einsatzgruppen? They were active in 1939 even before the invasion of Poland IOTL so why did the Nazis not use them?

Finland probably wouldn't have fought the Soviets unless attacked-and why would the Soviets attack them without the M-R pact in place? Stalin was not a gambler and he wouldn't have attacked up and down his western border for no apparent reason. Do you have some justification for Stalin's irrational behavior?

 

[Ethan387]

Why is it no for Einsatzgruppen? They were active in 1939 even before the invasion of Poland IOTL so why did the Nazis not use them?

Finland probably wouldn't have fought the Soviets unless attacked-and why would the Soviets attack them without the M-R pact in place? Stalin was not a gambler and he wouldn't have attacked up and down his western border for no apparent reason. Do you have some justification for Stalin's irrational behavior?

A) I'm saying that a few sections of the Wehrmacht still didn't know about their killings at this point.

B) he attacked Poland and only because there was a build up on the border so he decided to strike first and get a better chance at winning. (Like in a storm of steel and fire) I was just listing all the counties involved that came in eventually.

 

[nbcman]

A) I'm saying that a few sections of the Wehrmacht still didn't know about their killings at this point.

B) he attacked Poland and only because there was a build up on the border so he decided to strike first and get a better chance at winning. (Like in a storm of steel and fire) I was just listing all the counties involved that came in eventually.

B) Then the Nazis would lose as opposed to beating the Soviets. IOTL they were highly dependent on the favorable trade relationship they had with the Soviets. The Nazis didn't have significant currency reserves to purchase resources which would have probably led to a grinding war between a slowly weakening Germany and a clumsy SU but the SU would prevail unless the WAllies jumped in against the SU either via direct involvement in the war or by propping up the Nazis with trade - a WAllied Lend-Lease program to Germany. The minor countries would not get involved unless the SU directly attacked them because they wouldn't risk their country over a Germany who is going down the drain.

EDIT: If you want to start off a Nazi victorious thread in post 1900, you have to give some time to the backstory. A good example is CalBear's Anglo/American - Nazi War thread. While there are some aspects that are not be plausible in his TL, his story is so interesting to excuse some implausibilities. If you can work up a story on how the Germans were able to knock out the SU, it would go a long way on moving your TL along.

 

[Napoleon IV]

During an invasion of the Soviet Union the Wehrmacht would have to become aware of the Einsatzgruppen/SS war crimes, if they weren't before.

 

[Ethan387]

Romanian oil can be enough oil for a few months of war and Sweden still trades the iron ore to them. Also since Stalin started it a foreign invader wouldn't necessarily unite the nation. In fact it might start to tear it apart.

Got any answers to the questions I actually asked?

 

[Napoleon IV]

Romanian oil can be enough oil for a few months of war and Sweden still trades the iron ore to them. Also since Stalin started it a foreign invader wouldn't necessarily unite the nation. In fact it might start to tear it apart.

Got any answers to the questions I actually asked?

Romanian oil might be enough for a few months, but it will quickly leave a massive deficit that will impact Germany. Honestly, the only nation that could supply Germany with enough materials to defeat the Soviet Union was the Soviet Union.

As for the questions you asked:

1. First of all Germany can't beat the Soviet Union in a long war. If they aren't in Moscow by October (when the rains start and everything turns to mud) with the Red Army collapsing before them it is over. The rest is just a bloody epilogue. After all the Soviets were able to bring up millions of men and they had a massive amount of materials to bear against the Germans. Meanwhile Germany is facing a massive resource and manpower shortage.

2. The Wehrmacht won't care about the concentration camps. The "Clean Heer" myth is just that, a myth. The German generals allowed mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen and actually even participated. The generals knew full well what Hitler's plans were and still fought for him.

 

[Ethan387]

During an invasion of the Soviet Union the Wehrmacht would have to become aware of the Einsatzgruppen/SS war crimes, if they weren't before.

Well I know that. However as far as I know, a ton of resources were used in the holicaust so I'm saying what if they waited til after the war to kill them. Aka move them to a ghetto and shoot at it after the war

 

[Napoleon IV]

Well I know that. However as far as I know, a ton of resources were used in the holicaust so I'm saying what if they waited til after the war to kill them. Aka move them to a ghetto and shoot at it after the war

The generals still wouldn't care. They supported Hitler while knowing about his worst crimes as he was losing the war, so they will support him while knowing about his worst crimes after he has won.

 

[Ethan387]

Well in my other questions thread they said Rommel didn't allow the SS death squads to operate in his area of command. Also said that if he saw a concentration camp he would be enraged.

 

[nbcman]

It is more likely as in OTL that Yugoslavia will be carved up as opposed taking over Bulgaria. There are too many other countries looking for a piece of Yugoslavia and too many ethnic groups looking to break up the Yugoslav state. If Yugoslavia tried to attack Bulgaria, odds are likely that Hungary would attack them if not Germany, Italy, and Rumania. Also, the Bulgarians and Yugoslavians signed treaties of friendship in the late '30s so they were on more favorable terms than in the early '40s.

A German aligned Yugoslavia is from OTL. With enough German pressure, they could be fall in line. But a weak Germany is not convincing enough to pull Yugoslavia in line as opposed to the seemingly triumphant Germany of early 1941.

Regarding mega-Yugoslavia and the Caucasus, with what ships / navy can Yugoslavia maintain control across the Black Sea? It is not realistic.

 

[Napoleon IV]

Well in my other questions thread they said Rommel didn't allow the SS death squads to operate in his area of command. Also said that if he saw a concentration camp he would be enraged.

Even so Rommel doesn't have enough support to overthrow Hitler. Hitler can still send Model, Manstein, Guderian, etc. to beat any army Rommel can raise and then execute Rommel.

 

[nbcman]

Well in my other questions thread they said Rommel didn't allow the SS death squads to operate in his area of command. Also said that if he saw a concentration camp he would be enraged.

The SS operated in France when he was CinC Army Group B. He didn't serve in theaters where the Einsatzgruppen operated for the most part so it is difficult to say what he would have said in 1939-1940 when he was a more junior officer. His actions in 1944 when it was clear Nazi Germany was losing don't necessarily mean that he would have had the same actions in the early 1940s when the Nazi's were winning according to the terms of your OP.

 

[Ethan387]

It is more likely as in OTL that Yugoslavia will be carved up as opposed taking over Bulgaria. There are too many other countries looking for a piece of Yugoslavia and too many ethnic groups looking to break up the Yugoslav state. If Yugoslavia tried to attack Bulgaria, odds are likely that Hungary would attack them if not Germany, Italy, and Rumania. Also, the Bulgarians and Yugoslavians signed treaties of friendship in the late '30s so they were on more favorable terms than in the early '40s.

A German aligned Yugoslavia is from OTL. With enough German pressure, they could be fall in line. But a weak Germany is not convincing enough to pull Yugoslavia in line as opposed to the seemingly triumphant Germany of early 1941.

Regarding mega-Yugoslavia and the Caucasus, with what ships / navy can Yugoslavia maintain control across the Black Sea? It is not realistic.

That's what I figured. And the yougoslavia including Bulgaria is I was wondering if there were portions of Bulgarian armed forces that would launch a coupt to become part of it or something?

 

[jmc247]

To answer the question no I can't imagine Rommel would be interested in becoming Germany's Franco. You are talking about someone who felt that the mistake of Versailles was having a civilian government sign the damn thing and take the full blame for it as well as the war instead of a military government sign it and take the hit and for the WW1 winners to feel they had buy in to what happened in Germany after the war. He also personally didn't like the idea of being rapped up in politics.

Two of his wife Lucia Rommel's Polish cousin's (she was Italian/Polish ancestry) were killed by SS Commandos when he was in North Africa, well his son Manfred talks about it below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDAxuExWOXg&t=3595

One was a catholic priest and the other a German WW1 officer turned Polish Army officer for WW2. He ordered that they not be arrested, but it didn't save them, he got word back from the authorities in Poland that it was a cold winter I am sorry a member of your family died.

It sent off his bullshit meter because he received the exact same message for the other cousin of his wife two weeks later. As for issues of orders of magnitude for what was happening in the East he didn't get that until he returned back from North Africa.

 

[Ethan387]

Yeah I knew of his dislike of politics so that's why I asked if there was any other general that would take the roll. So a war over the Jews is ASB. OK. So is a war between the SS and the Wehrmacht possible if say Hitler suddenly dies of a heart attack and no one agrees on who the next leader would be so germany breaks down into Nazi vs Fascist? SS vs Wehrmacht?

 

[nbcman]

Yeah I knew of his dislike of politics so that's why I asked if there was any other general that would take the roll. So a war over the Jews is ASB. OK. So is a war between the SS and the Wehrmacht possible if say Hitler suddenly dies of a heart attack and no one agrees on who the next leader would be so germany breaks down into Nazi vs Fascist? SS vs Wehrmacht?

In the early '40s, there was not much of an SS for the Wehrmacht to fight so it wouldn't be much of a contest. You may want to look into the members of Schwarze Kapelle who were plotting coups in the 1938-1944 time frame for ideas on military leaders of a coup such as General Beck or Admiral Canaris. But they weren't plotting coups due to the treatment of Slavs or Jews, but they were concerned that the Nazi's were leading them to a disaster.

 

[jmc247]

Yeah I knew of his dislike of politics so that's why I asked if there was any other general that would take the roll. So a war over the Jews is ASB. OK. So is a war between the SS and the Wehrmacht possible if say Hitler suddenly dies of a heart attack and no one agrees on who the next leader would be so germany breaks down into Nazi vs Fascist? SS vs Wehrmacht?

Here is the problem any situation where the SS got as big as it was late 44 and upon Hitler's death you would likely have an organizational conflict, because two core things held them together Hitler and the war. Any earlier and it wouldn't be much of a conflict as the army was so big at least once it starts returning home.

Edit: nbcman said it before me.

Remove them and institutionally they are likely to turn on each other if the SS starts getting massive.