A fascist England and Independent Scotland....

[Chris]

All right; this is the background of a novel I am considering, so in the grand tradition of...well, myself, Thande and Calbear, I am bouncing the idea off my readers first. In the 1970s, a right-wing coup was launched against the then labour government in Britain, but though a series of unforcunate events, part of the old government was established in scotland and managed to secure scottish indepdencece. A police state was developed in the south; the north became a republic.

20-odd years later...and the cold war is at an end. Not unlike Eastern Europe, there are groups of people in England who want a return to democracy...and the govt. does not like the idea. They want to settle accounts with scotland once and for all, whatever it takes...

Thoughts?

Chris

 

[Quiet_Man]

The really big problem the Scots face is numbers, the population of London alone is larger than the population of Scotland. They may be able to make a serious war of attrition, but a lot depends on the enthusiasm of the English (people) for attacking North.

 

[Fletch]

A lot depends on external circumstances.

What would the US position be? I doubt they would take an open act of aggression lying down, so relations in that direction would be important. We may even see "Operation English Freedom"

What would the European position be? Loss of trade could hurt this dictatorship badly. Would this Scottish Republic be in the EC?

What side would the Commonwealth have taken? I doubt they would support a junta in London. The position would again be vital for trade reasons.

Loss of any of the above would hurt the Government, probably in the order I put them.

Internally, how is dissent treated in England? What is the capability of the Scottish Defence Force? I suspect they would fight a guerilla action, as the numbers are so much weighed in the English favour. Are their foreign troops on Scottish soil, defending the border? Were Wilson and Callaghan viewed as the first leaders of this republic?

Is Berwick in Scotland or England?

What is the state of the English economy?

So many questions!

 

[Wendell]

Am I the only one that thinks that this reeks slightly of V for Vendetta?

 

[CalBear]

Am I the only one that thinks that this reeks slightly of V for Vendetta?

It's all in the approach. The same premise can go in a lot of different directions. As a quick example, suppose you go with a post-revolt England. One where a REAL Communist revolt was put down as opposed to the UK of "V" where the rulers started the fire just so they could put it out.

Or compare the "V" world with "Children of Men". Same basic set-up, sans the plot conceits of each story, but far different resulting worlds.

Chris' proposed treatment is a different POD & undoubtedly, a completely different take. It's all in the writer's eye. You give Chris, Thande & I the same starting point & we will give you stories as different as night and day, both in tone and in style.

 

[Syphon]

Hey Chris you could have some fun with this.

Maybe make thatcher some sort of Kim Il Sung figure.

Holding on to power through despotic means.

It's not like she deliberately fought a war to boost her chances at an election win or anything is it?

 

[Dan1988]

That's bad for Thatcher.

 

[Hapsburg]

Well, if there's somehow an English Nationalist coup d'etat instead of a British Nationalist one, the separation of Scotland could actually be the action of the English fascists rather than the Scots.
That would require a bit of a further back POD, though...probably mid-1800s or so.

 

[BlackMage]

Ooh, is this the planned coup against Harold Wilson? I've always wanted to read a TL about that. I think it's a very interesting idea, but then again, all your ideas are very interesting.

 

[Chris]

Ooh, is this the planned coup against Harold Wilson? I've always wanted to read a TL about that. I think it's a very interesting idea, but then again, all your ideas are very interesting.

That was the idea, yes. Any more thoughts?

Chris

 

[BlackMage]

That was the idea, yes. Any more thoughts?

Chris

Well, what could I tell you that you couldn't work out for yourself?

I think that the Scotland-England war, which you're obviously alluding to, might be less interesting than life inside the regime itself. Oh, sure, the affairs of great men and the movements of armies make fascinating stuff for history books, but I think you really need to examine how such a regime would work, and in particular how the English people react to it. How do the government structure the regime? A single-party state, with 'all loyalty to the party'? A military regime with fascist leanings, a la Franco? The illusion of democratic process, a la Sukarno? There's just so many ways you could go with this. Do the English people regard it with devotion, with indifference, with disdain? How would, for instance, alt-Thande feel?

But I have complete faith in your ability.

 

[Chris]

Maybe make thatcher some sort of Kim Il Sung figure.

D
?

I don't think that the elite in the UK approved of Thatcher that much, so I was going to leave her out of it, along with Major and Blair.

Well, what could I tell you that you couldn't work out for yourself?
.

I don't know; that's why I'm asking.

Chris

 

[The Dean]

The really big problem the Scots face is numbers, the population of London alone is larger than the population of Scotland. They may be able to make a serious war of attrition, but a lot depends on the enthusiasm of the English (people) for attacking North.

How many of the population will have fled North when the totalitarian state came into power? Back in the 1970s I would have or been involved in some form of resistance.
Will there be an underground resistance to the overthrow of parliamentary rule? Once again I can see a lot of my friends at the time just unable to stand by without taking some kind of considered action.
This could all lead to some kind of support for the upsurge of support for a return to democracy 20 years later.

 

[Calgacus]

I don't think that the elite in the UK approved of Thatcher that much, so I was going to leave her out of it, along with Major and Blair.



I don't know; that's why I'm asking.

Chris

I thought of doing just such a timeline, although without the independent Scotland part. I think any such regime in England would be one similar to Franco and Pinochet, although how this would work without the unifying factor of the Catholic Church is another question. The army would surely have to be a player, but I think it debateable whether the army would countenance a coup of any kind.

 

[Tyr]

What about the north?
I'd imagine we would much rather rather go with the true UK then stay with the fascists.
The UK of Scotland and Northumbria?

 

[Barry Curran]

Why dont you develop a storyline that has Scottish independence in the 1970s as the trigger point for a coup against a Labour Government?

 

[Will Ritson]

I recently read "A State of Denmark" by Derek Raymond. Published in 1970, it is an alternative history of Britain from the early 60s onwards. The diversion here is of a Labour Prime Minister who increasingly becomes "socialist" in the National Socialist mould.

The story is focussed around an English journalist exiled in Italy, who is deported back to England where the past catches up with him. The main themes are around the gradual fall of democracy between 1964 and 1970, and the subsequent break-up of the UK. One of the most thought provoking AHs I have read in some time.

http://www.amazon.com/State-Denmark-Mask-Noir-Title/dp/1852423153/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5379379-0270407?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175455220&sr=8-1

 

[ninebucks]

If you can't even spell 'fascism' then you shouldn't be writing a book about it.

 

[Wendell]

What about the north?
I'd imagine we would much rather rather go with the true UK then stay with the fascists.
The UK of Scotland and Northumbria?

And where does this leave the six counties in Northern Ireland?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

And where does this leave the six counties in Northern Ireland?

Where it's always been: screwed.