A Factionalized Russia

Might have been done before but...I can't be bothered to look for it so here goes:

Could Russia have become split into two or more different countries as a result of the Revolution and Civil War?

What would those new countries be called and what would their bounderies be?

What would the effect on future event be if Russia does not become as powerful a country as it did?

How would a factionalized Russia effect Europe and WWII?

(I'm assuming that because the Revolution and Civil War happened during WWI the goings on in Russia wont effect Germany or the events that lead up to WWII.)
 
Seems an interesting one - certainly would be fun to have a Tsarist Russia, a Soviet Union, and a Liberal Democratic Russia - but Im afraid I don't know enough about it to help... will be watching this one in case anyone has any ideas, though!
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
A scenario where remnants of the White movement is able to keep Siberia has always attracted me, but it's quite impossible, with the reds controlling industrial Russia they'd have all tools they need to invade Siberia.
 
A scenario where remnants of the White movement is able to keep Siberia has always attracted me, but it's quite impossible, with the reds controlling industrial Russia they'd have all tools they need to invade Siberia.

You'd need first class military intervention or action in favor of the Siberian territory, not the relatively weak Allied interference, but something serious. Say, if Germany had won or remained strong somehow and threatened full-on invasion or if the Japanese, perhaps with British and/or American support decided that a Siberian buffer kingdom was just what the doctor ordered.

Then again, I'm generally of the school that few things are truly impossible historically, just highly unlikely.
 
Here, the Transitional Government doesn't collapse after Lenin's coup but is gradually pushed out of European Russia. At some point there is a coup which places the still living Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich on the throne as Emperor Mikhail II Romanov. The allies in this timeline throw far heavier support behind the unified White government, and support them over the various independence movements.

An alternate Battle of Tsaritsyn ends in a decisive White victory, which enables them to drive the Reds out of the Caucasus and greatly weakens them.

Granted, this is a highly optimistic scenario for both the Soviets and Whites, as it has the Reds still taking the Ukraine while the Whites hold onto the Caucasus and Central Asia. But with sufficient support from the west (who want a strong buffer against the Soviets), it is possible.


russiadivided.png


I didn't bother editing any state that wasn't directly on the border of the USSR.
 
Granted, this is a highly optimistic scenario for both the Soviets and Whites, as it has the Reds still taking the Ukraine while the Whites hold onto the Caucasus and Central Asia. But with sufficient support from the west (who want a strong buffer against the Soviets), it is possible.
Seems vaguely plausible... I've often wondered about the possibilities of a still-existing Feb Revolution government.

However, if the Reds (as yourworstnightmare pointed out) hold all the industrial areas, means that the Whites are going to need serious outside investment to survive. On the other hand, I suppose holding The Urals and Eastwards means they've got the resources... maybe they can be on friendlier terms after a few years when they realise they need each other! :D
 
Just want to ask one thing in this scenario:

If Russia get split into two countries (Imperialist Tsarist Russia and Communist Soviet Russia) is it possible that, after Vladimir Illich Lenin dies, the Soviet Russia could get split again into two other countries (Communist Stalinist Russia and Communist Trotskist Russia)?
 
Just want to ask one thing in this scenario:

If Russia get split into two countries (Imperialist Tsarist Russia and Communist Soviet Russia) is it possible that, after Vladimir Illich Lenin dies, the Soviet Russia could get split again into two other countries (Communist Stalinist Russia and Communist Trotskist Russia)?

If that happened, then the Tsarist state, presumably still united as in the map, would likely see this as their chance to smash the divided and fighting Communists...
 
If that happened, then the Tsarist state, presumably still united as in the map, would likely see this as their chance to smash the divided and fighting Communists...

So then maybe when Nazi-Germany begins to swallow up the smaller countries around it (again assuming that WWII will happen regardless of the changes in Russia) the Russian states may have already been at war with each other for a while.

A possibility then would be for one of the Russian states to align itself with Nazi Germany in an attempt to overwhelm the other two and you could end up with a situation where the Axis powers consist of Nazi-Germany, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan and Stalinist or Trotskist Russia while the Allies consist of Britian and the Commonwealth, Free-France, potentially the USA and Imperialist Tsarist Russia as the main forces.

From there who knows what the future could possibly hold.
 
Would the Brits have the stomach to fight Germany without a unified Russia on their side?

Would Germany turn its attention to Russia before Western Europe if Russia was embroiled in a civil war?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Would the Brits have the stomach to fight Germany without a unified Russia on their side?

Would Germany turn its attention to Russia before Western Europe if Russia was embroiled in a civil war?

Talking WW2? Well, if Russia really had been split in two factions it could cause serious butterflies. The 20s and the 30s could look very different, causing a completely different 1939.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Any trans-Ural Russian state would need to completely whore itself to the Japanese in order to survive against the Reds.

Also, why do people never make any effort when they draw borders for a divided Russia? People always blatantly just draw a single line somewhere near the Urals without taking any geographical features or population centres into account. I'm not picking on HSB, everyone seems to do this.
 
Any trans-Ural Russian state would need to completely whore itself to the Japanese in order to survive against the Reds.

Also, why do people never make any effort when they draw borders for a divided Russia? People always blatantly just draw a single line somewhere near the Urals without taking any geographical features or population centres into account. I'm not picking on HSB, everyone seems to do this.

Meh, I didn't put a lot of effort into that map...
 
"sland crimea"book of Aksenov, Far East-republic, Siberin republick. If you can read russian, i can recomend you this timelines:
1/ far east republic-http://zhurnal.lib.ru/d/dvr
2. Siberian repulick- http://malorussia.com/sdr/index.htm
Yes, basic idea is to have easily defended and relatively thickly populated region to withstand the Red Tide. It kills "Siberian Republic" on it's tracks, as Siberia is too thinily populated and easily invaded to survive as separate political entity without massive changes with pre-Revolution POD (single remotely realistic TL with independent Siberia, "Anyone who's capable to bear arms", has post-Barbarossa industry and population relocation as it's cornerstone). So yes, Far Eastern Republic (bulwarked by Baikal fortifications against the Red wave) or Crimea. Geographically, Trans-Caucasia is possible, but this region would never receive enough Russian population to be considered "Russia" and locals are incapable of mounting coordinated defence.

If Russia get split into two countries (Imperialist Tsarist Russia and Communist Soviet Russia) is it possible that, after Vladimir Illich Lenin dies, the Soviet Russia could get split again into two other countries (Communist Stalinist Russia and Communist Trotskist Russia)?
I would say that continuing breakup of "non-communist" Russia is much more likely than split between Stalinland and Trotskyland. After all, anti-Bolshevism (not even proper anti-communism, as a lot of Whites were socialists of different stripes) was the single uniting force of Whites. Would they be able to secure substantially big area as their own, following split between "pinkos" and "reactionaries" is very likely.

Would Germany turn its attention to Russia before Western Europe if Russia was embroiled in a civil war?
It is highly unlikely that NSDAP will be allowed to come to power if there's no Red Scare. However, some kind of revanchist German regime is very likely and said regime will naturally turn it's sights eastward. It would be more correct to say that all "Russias" will court Germans to win their favours, so Germany would starts eat former Russian Empire piecemeal long before TTL's WWII. I'm not even sure WWII will happen ITTL, as Germans will have their national pride satisfied by their success in bringing Russia under their influence.
 
Only possibility as I see it is a state focused on St Petersburg which is backed up by Western powers against a state focused upon Moscow. In that situation you might be able to get away with Siberian republics and the like. You have to have an approximate balance of manpower and industrial capacity and thus military potential if one state isn't to just swallow the other.

Any map which has "European Russia" against "Asian Russia" is onto a hiding to nothing. "European Russia" will move to reclaim it, and do so without much difficulty, the moment they are not fighting a civil war, which it is safe to assume will happen at some point.
 
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