A double monarchy in Grossdeutschland?

It occurs to me that if the Austria was indeed the driving force behind a german unification, Then it would still suffer the same problems of Hungarian/Slavic nationalism that OTL's Austrians had to deal with. If the Austrians had indeed been sucessful, then they'd also have the same (or at least ATL brothers of the same) leaders, who would make similar decisions. My question is this, could we see a German-Hungarian Empire out of this? Would it be as likly to make the same mistakes in terms of Slavic nationalism and the Balkans?
 
Last edited:
I think for Austria its either Germany only or its Dual Monarchy as OTL.

A united Germany wouldn't be able to include vast amounts of others ethnicities that severly outnumber them in many places. (Almost everything outside OTL Modern day Austria and the studaten land)
 
It would have to grant universal male sufferage that way the Magyars can't oppress the other minorities. It could be done that the Habsburgs have both, but it would be difficult and eventually Hungary, Croatia, and Galicia will likely be granted independence even if they are only puppets. It would not make the mistake of expanding into further into the Slavic Balkans because it would be monopolized by Germans so it would be more stable, but you still need to take care of the Magyar problem.
 
Not going to happen. Such a state would unify all the territory along the Rhine and Danube Rivers, from the North and Baltic Seas to the Adriatic and Black Seas, and would control a hefty among of European's mineral supplies, in terms of metals and resources such a coal, timber, etc. Plus the huge population and well-developed infrastructure, especially along the already mentioned rivers, would give it the fighting ability of Russia on steroids. Asides from the obvious internal contradictions and massive issues that would require near ASB-levels to fix, the Russians, Turks, various Italian states, French, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, and British are all very emphatically not going to allow such a move to go forward.
 
Not going to happen. Such a state would unify all the territory along the Rhine and Danube Rivers, from the North and Baltic Seas to the Adriatic and Black Seas, and would control a hefty among of European's mineral supplies, in terms of metals and resources such a coal, timber, etc. Plus the huge population and well-developed infrastructure, especially along the already mentioned rivers, would give it the fighting ability of Russia on steroids. Asides from the obvious internal contradictions and massive issues that would require near ASB-levels to fix, the Russians, Turks, various Italian states, French, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, and British are all very emphatically not going to allow such a move to go forward.

If you can get this state to form in the revolution of 1848 only Russia would have the abilities to do somthing about it, but Russia and Austria were still pretty good allies at this time so Russia may not be inclined to do something. The Russians might not be inclined to help the Habsburgs get back Hungary if they unify Germany during 1848, but it is still a possibility. Nationalism will still be an issue, but as long as Germany-Hungary don't expand into the Balkans, which they would liekly be less inclined to do now they wont face as much of the destuctive forces of Pan-Slavism. Now if you also have Franz Ferdinand killed in 1853 by a Hungarian nationalist you not only have a powerful enough German presence and good leverage to force universal sufferage on the Magyars. With universal sufferage you break the power structure of the Magyars and make Germany-Hungary a more unified state, still politically dominated by its massive German population.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
If you can get this state to form in the revolution of 1848 only Russia would have the abilities to do somthing about it
Yes, for the time being.

but Russia and Austria were still pretty good allies at this time so Russia may not be inclined to do something.
The only way this unification can happen in 1848 will necessarily cause a break with Russia, and an epically bad one at that. If they grant universal suffrage, Alexander II will probably see to it that the German Emperor ends up on Saint Helena too.

With universal sufferage you break the power structure of the Magyars and make Germany-Hungary a more unified state, still politically dominated by its massive German population.
It's not a video game, and it's the best way to unify the non-german parts of Megagermany, minus the magyar maybe.
 
Not going to happen. Such a state would unify all the territory along the Rhine and Danube Rivers, from the North and Baltic Seas to the Adriatic and Black Seas, and would control a hefty among of European's mineral supplies, in terms of metals and resources such a coal, timber, etc. Plus the huge population and well-developed infrastructure, especially along the already mentioned rivers, would give it the fighting ability of Russia on steroids. Asides from the obvious internal contradictions and massive issues that would require near ASB-levels to fix, the Russians, Turks, various Italian states, French, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, and British are all very emphatically not going to allow such a move to go forward.

This.

Ignoring all this outside influence, the Germans would in this state make up the majority of the population, with the remainder partitioned to several smaller ethnicities. Of these, I can see only the Hungarians and the Czechs to post real opposition, and to a later date the various ethnicities whose home country is outside of the giant blob in central Europe.

However, a liberal blob might get the Poles, Romanians and Serbs on his side by liberal policies. And finally I can imagine that the German-dominated blob would be much more willing to give up claims on far away provinces than the Austrians were ITTL. Just to give an example: cede parts of Transylvania to Romania under the condition that Romania joins a common market nad has a German king. Do the same with Poland which could receive Galicia (probably not those Prussian lands). And of course Italy.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
This.

Ignoring all this outside influence, the Germans would in this state make up the majority of the population, with the remainder partitioned to several smaller ethnicities. Of these, I can see only the Hungarians and the Czechs to post real opposition, and to a later date the various ethnicities whose home country is outside of the giant blob in central Europe.

However, a liberal blob might get the Poles, Romanians and Serbs on his side by liberal policies. And finally I can imagine that the German-dominated blob would be much more willing to give up claims on far away provinces than the Austrians were ITTL. Just to give an example: cede parts of Transylvania to Romania under the condition that Romania joins a common market nad has a German king. Do the same with Poland which could receive Galicia (probably not those Prussian lands). And of course Italy.

Poznan was considered a part of Poland and a personal union in 1848; it was only formally annexed to Prussia in the 50s or 60s.
 
If Austria unifies Germany, we might see Hungary-Croatia gain independence under a cadet branch of the Habsburgs, or simply be in personal union with Germany, where they share a common monarch but that's it. The first option seems much more likely. I think in any Austria unified Germany scenario, Hungary will be a close German ally no matter what. The Magyars won't want to be part of uber-Germany and the Germans won't want them, so they'll probably go their own way.

The Czechs would probably be dealt with through their own 'Ausgelich.' I imagine Bohemia in a Grossdeutschland scenario would probably get some form of autonomy.
 
Top