How does the social democratic party keep the right-wing democrats in a coalition for decades?
A Divided Shores - The Two Nations of North America
- Thread starter AstroRangerBeans
- Start date
Honestly I think the CSA being desegregated is optimistic. It's not like Apartheid, which had to end sooner or later due to demographics (and which still exists ITTL's South Africa), the Confederacy could've very well maintained something akin to Jim Crow to the present IMO, especially in a TL without the Nazis, who were a large part of what made racism taboo IOTL.
Confederated States of America
Social Democrats and centrist Democratic-Republicans are in coalition despite clashes over some issues. TBH, the National Liberty Alliance/NLA is possibly a challenger to a Federalist Alliance before Gillibrand's heavy-handed reconciliation which would last four years but think how the TTL US Social Democrats are the left-leaning version of the CDU/CSU while the Democratic-Republicans would take their role as the centrist/right-leaning version of Germany's SPD.
The Confederate States was the last Western country to abolish slavery but adjusted the draconian peculiar institution where most slaves are having taken part in the so-called 'industrial slavery' or industrial indentured servants until in about the 1920s when the country would start to improve living conditions for Afro-Confederates, however, some states might impose the TTL's version of Jim Crow laws which would last until around 1980s during the peak years of Walker dictatorship.
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so, i've been observing this thread from a distance for a little while now. i have to ask, why is the black population of the CSA so low? i can comprehend a series of migrations outside of the country, but less than 20% seems a little low. this is especially the case given the size of the TTL confederacy.
Social Democrats and centrist Democratic-Republicans are in coalition despite clashes over some issues. TBH, the National Liberty Alliance/NLA is possibly a challenger to a Federalist Alliance before Gillibrand's heavy-handed reconciliation which would last four years but think how the TTL US Social Democrats are the left-leaning version of the CDU/CSU while the Democratic-Republicans would take their role as the centrist/right-leaning version of Germany's SPD.
The Confederate States was the last Western country to abolish slavery but adjusted the draconian peculiar institution where most slaves are having taken part in the so-called 'industrial slavery' or industrial indentured servants until in about the 1920s when the country would start to improve living conditions for Afro-Confederates, however, some states might impose the TTL's version of Jim Crow laws which would last until around 1980s during the peak years of Walker dictatorship.
I fixed the problems since I thought the demographics are coming from the OTL Southern United States, so I have adjusted the percentage to fit with the TTL's Confederacy since they included Sonora and Chihuahua during the expansion attempt.
List of Presidents and Vice Presidents of the Confederated States; Edwin Walker
1861-1868: Robert E. Lee (I-VA) with P.G.T. Beauregard (I-LA)
1867 def.: John C. Breckinridge/Robert M.T. Hunter (Democratic), Wade Hampton III/Thomas L. Jackson (Whig)
1873-1880: Stonewall Jackson (W-VA) with Judah Benjamin (W-VA)
1873 def.: John C. Breckinridge/Robert M.T. Hunter (Democratic), Robert E. Lee/P.G.T. Beauregard (Independent)
1880-1892: James Longstreet (D-GA) with George Custis Lee (D-VA)
1879 def.: P.G.T. Beauregard/Stephen Mallory II (Whig)
1885 def.: Wade Hampton III/Rufus W. Cobb (Whig-Constitution)
1892-1898: Wade Hampton III (D-SC) with Richard Coke (D-TX) (until 1898)
1891 def.: Charles Parlange/William Bloxham (Whig-Constitution)
1897 def.: John B. Gordon/Jim Hogg (Whig-Constitution)
1898-1902: Wade Hampton III (D-SC) with Thomas Goode Jones (D-AL)
1902-1904: Thomas Goode Jones (D-AL) with John W. Daniel (I-VA)
1904-1910: John W. Daniel (I-VA) with Champ Clark (I-OZ)
1903 def.: Thomas Goode Jones/Joseph W. Byrns Sr. (Democratic), Joseph C.S. Blackburn/Robert Love Taylor (Whig-Constitution)
1910-1922: Woodrow Wilson (D-VA) with Thomas M. Campbell (D-TX)
1909 def.: Benjamin Tillman/Champ Clark (Whig-Constitution)
1915 def.: Oscar Underwood/Wade Hampton V (Whig-Constitution)
1922-1928: William G. McAdoo (D-GA) with Alfredo Alfonso (D-CU)
1921 def.: Elison D. Smith/Oscar Branch Colquitt (Whig-Constitution)
1928-1934: Elison D. Smith (WC-SC) with Theodore G. Bilbo (WC-VA)
1927 def.: Walter F. George/Cordell Hull (Democratic), Rebecca Ann Felton/Pat Morris Neff (New Liberal)
1934-1952: Hubert "Huey" Long (I-LA) with Carl Hayden (I-AZ)
1933 def.: Elison D. Smith/Theodore G. Bilbo (Whig-Constitution), John Nance Garner/Cordell Hull (Democratic)
1939 def.: Cordell Hull/James F. Byrnes (Democratic), Ramon Grau/Walter F. George (Whig-Constitution)
1945 def.: Harry Truman/Jesse H. Jones (Democratic), Richard Russell Jr./William P. Cooper (Whig-Constitution)
1952-1965: Richard B. Rusell Jr. (WC-GA) with Dennis Chavez (WC-AZ)
1951 def.: Harry Truman/Alben Barkley (Union Democratic)
1957 def.: Clinton P. Anderson/Estes Kefauver (Union Democratic)
1965-1969: Claude Pepper (UD-GA) with Lyndon B. Johnson (UD-TX)
1951 def.: George Wallace/Barry Goldwater (Whig-Constitution)
Both President Pepper and Johnson were forcibly removed from power
1969-1993: General Edwin Walker (SPFC-TX) with Phyllis Schlafly (SPFC-OZ) and Lloyd Bentsen (SPFC-TX)
1993-1994: Lloyd Bentsen (Interim)
1994-2006: Al Gore (UD-KY) with Ann Richards (UD-TX)
1993 def.: Ross Perot/Hector Ruiz (Whig), Francisco Barrio/Jesse Jackson (People)
1999 def.: Jesse Jackson/Ted Turner (People), Pat Robertson/Jack Kemp (Whig)
2006-2012: Hillary Turner (PP-GA) with John Edwards (PP-NC)
2005 def.: Ann Richards/Bill Richardson (UD), Jim Gilmore/Mike Huckabee (Whig)
2012-2018: John McCain III (W-AZ) with Brian Kemp (W-GA)
2011 def.: Hillary Turner (PP-GA)/John Edwards (PP-NC), Rick Perry (W-TX), Jim Webb/Bill White (UD)
2017 def.: Carly Fiorina/Mike Huckabee (W), Tim Kaine (UD), John Wolfe Jr (PP)
2018-present: Brian Kemp (W-GA) with Beto O'Rourke (UD-TX)
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even so, 20% still feels pretty low. given the fact this is two countries we're talking about ITTL, and they wouldn't exactly be on friendly terms, either. furthermore, even with abolition, i have reason to believe the confederates would impose restrictions on freedom of movement upon their black population to keep them in place. insert some BS justification by richmond about how it's the "natural order" of society or whatever.
what i'm trying to say here is that i imagine the black population in the country would probably be 30-40%, especially when you factor in the other TTL states such as cuba, the IRL dominican republic. conversely, this would leave the northern US with a smaller black population due to said restrictions on movement. while i won't deny the notion of a number migrating north, i can't imagine they would do so with ease. even if the north would presumably be more hospitable, i can't imagine they'd be pleased about a bunch of black southerners coming north.
My two cents is I tend to agree. When I was addressing this same question on my own, I even went to the length of identifying Black Migration destination cities and reversing the demographic trends of those cities and added them back to the places those folks had come from down South. This affected over 100 years of demographic trnds for both the Southern US and Northern cities (and California too). In other words, what would happen if Southern Black families had no were else to go. I ended up with almost 40% of the CSA being Black, most cities being majority Black, and multiple states being majority Black today. This also means the CSA has a larger population (not necessarily more urban, but politically probable), and the USA has a considerably whiter population.
If it helps at all, here is a sketch I came up with after my research. With the caveat that of course there is a lot of speculation and alternate history. For instance, I have Mississippi kind of replacing Alabama as the center of the old Southern Black political bloc, as well as some alternate state lines. But I think this is still a helpful workup of a similar situation as yours.
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oh this helps with illustrating what i was trying to say 100%, thank you. i also didn't even think to consider the population would overall be higher, and almost certainly more rural on average.
Both President Pepper and Johnson were forcibly removed from power
1969-1993: General Edwin Walker (SPFC-TX) with Phyllis Schlafly (SPFC-OZ) and Lloyd Bentsen (SPFC-TX)
Can you tell us more about this time?
1969-1993: General Edwin Walker (SPFC-TX) with Phyllis Schlafly (SPFC-OZ) and Lloyd Bentsen (SPFC-TX)
Can you tell us more about this time?
President Claude Pepper, a former senator from Georgia has launched their flagship program with the advice from his counterpart, Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson in addressing issues such as alleviating poverty through providing employment, economic opportunities, providing national aid to education, publicly funded healthcare, welfare programs, taxes, expanding urban programs, and also granting full rights to nonwhites but unfortunately, the Whig-Constitution has vehemently opposed their schemes and programs which included racial integration and desegregation programs as well as troubling tensions between the agitated civil rights activists and law enforcement officers but not long before Italy-aligned officer corps would attempt to launch a coup but it failed.
In the 1969 elections, it is a matter of showdown between the presidency and the Whig-Constitution following protests and rising economic uncertainty where prices of necessities have been skyrocketed and their attempts to democratize would fatally end in Chief of Staff Walker launching a coup in November of 1969, putting Pepper and Johnson into house arrest while declaring a state of emergency and detaining or hunting down the opposition, which is mainly Union Democrats, communists, and left-wing Spanish-speaking politicians as well. Fidel Castro with his brother fled to the United States after he followed some opposition members in exiling themselves to escape the harrowing persecution that was initiated by Walker himself.
After the coup, the dictator chooses to align with the Rome Pact, a military alliance of despotic, far-right, fascist, and clerical countries such as Italy, South Germany, the Balearic Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Ottoman Turkey, the Dominican Republic, and China.
Also, don't forget how the racial demographics in the TTL C.S.A. would be adjusted since Cuba and bits of Northern Mexico is included.
i've already addressed cuba in an earlier reply, though i didn't address northern mexico, which i should've
The black population still would be roughly 33% even after you add Hispanics from the areas of Mexico & Cuba. And that's just Afro-Americans. If you clump Afro-Cubans into the mix it gets closer to 38%.
Major update: I have changed the world map as well as Atlas Map of the World including the front page of the New Orleans journal.
so the things i noticed the most are
- peru is a lot larger
- belarus is gone for some reason, as is transcaucasia
- egypt has been shuffled around a bit
- central africa and venezuela are experiencing some... what is going on there, actually
- Yes, it is because of the revived Andean People's Republic, which comprised of both former countries of Peru and Bolivia. Unfortunately, their economy has been underperforming amidst the worsening economic outlook with sanctions from other countries over the continued human rights violations and brazen propaganda that claims their country was a plurinationalist which they had descended from the Incans. Still, the country was facing countless insurgencies, even in the Amazon rainforest as insurgents of the Free Peru/Frente Peruviano Libre kept on launching key terrorist attacks with weapons supplied by the Empire of Brazil.
- It's the alternate Soviet Union, although their form of government is a federal sovereign parliamentary republic with the constitution modeled on both OTL United States and Germany as their original republics, except for Ukraine (I don't endorse any current propaganda) has been upgraded in its status to the status of being in the constituent republics, the same way as how the United Kingdom has constituent countries within the nation. Their current leader is Boris Nemtsov (DCPP) with his Chancellor Paviel Latuska (DCPP), with the Federal Congressional Deputies as the legislature of the Sovereign Union.
- Egypt is still under the constitutional monarchy, but with a mixture of the United Arab Emirates and Thailand but they retained control of Al Jaghbub Oasis and have undergone developments since the 1960s with the creation of Lake Qattara/Qattara Sea through a series of dams, canals, and other infrastructure needed to flood the Qattara Depression to alter the climate and to bring Egypt close to the Pact of Rome, until 2003 when absolute monarchy rule is slowly relaxed with fresh new elections that ended the pro-Italian autocracy.
- Venezuela has been a pro-Italian dictatorship since the 1960s under the military junta, and then their new constitution consolidated into a one-party statist dictatorship with Brasilia's help and Rome's persuasions to consolidate or cement the Pact of Rome's global dominance. By the end of the Frozen War between the mid-1980s to the 2000s, the country has been falling apart without Rome's lifelong assistance and Brazil's slow moves toward a constitutional monarchy, only the rogue state of the Dominican Republic, which has been ruled by an iron fist of Trujillo have remained as Caracas lifeline in terms of trade and military assistance but protests in the early 2010s have tormented into an actual insurgency has led to an intensification of the far-right regime into a rogue state.
- For Mittelafrika, the ongoing conflict continued until this year as the conflict between the rebels and the government is nearly reaching its 10th year after the Blossoming Springs Revolution. Britain's fatal mistake in intervening with the Ngute's government has cost the Liberal Party's standings back home and this year, David Laws are facing a tough leadership bid and elections.
i'm reading this first point as the APR being Funny Killpeopleists which is. Not Good by any stretch, and also feels a little... uncreative, i guess? like, why does peru have to, by the looks of things, follow a convergent path that's vaguely akin to the PCP-SL?
i know i probably always come off as a weird belarusian nationalist when i do this but why do other countries get to leave but belarus doesn't? is it because of russification? is it because their current head of state is pro-kremlin? what is it? what does belarus do that prevents them from being an independent country?
i do not know remotely enough about egyptian (or middle eastern) history to really comment on this one, so i'll take it as is
surely venezuela has other political avenues, right? it's not uncommon for countries that tout democratic values to align with authoritarian states. take the IRL US-saudi relationship, for example.
and finally, mittelafrika. i will give you this, it is not uncommon for post-colonial states to experience political instability. i think what i'm missing is more prior context as to the war's beginnings, beyond the coverage of the ideologies of the different factions present.
List of Presidents and Vice Presidents of the United States
1860 def.: John C. Breckinridge/Joseph Lane (Southern Democratic), John Bell/Edward Everett (Constitutional Union), Stephan A. Douglas/Herschel V. Johnson (Democratic),
1865-1873: Horatio Seymour (D-NY) with James R. Doolittle (D-WI)
1864 def.: Abraham Lincoln/Hannibal Hamlin (Republican)
1868 def.: Horace Greeley/Ulysses S. Grant (Republican)
1873-1875: Francis Preston Blair Jr. (D-MO) with George B. McClellan (D-NJ)
1872 def.: Henry Wilson/Benjamin Wade (Republican), Horace Greeley/Ulysses S. Grant (Liberal)
1876 def.: James G. Blaine/Benjamin Tristow (Republican), Alexander Campbell/Peter Cooper (Liberal)
1881-1885: James G. Blaine (R-ME) with Benjamin Harrison (R-IN)
1880 def.: Samuel J. Tilden/Winfield Scott Hancock (Democratic)
1885-1893: Edward S. Bragg (D-WI) with John Quincy Adams II (D-MA)
1884 def.: James G. Blaine/Benjamin Harrison (Republican), Robert Todd Lincoln/George F. Edmunds (Liberal)
1888 def.: Benjamin Harrison/Chauncey Depew (Republican), Robert Todd Lincoln/Ernest Acheson (Populist)
1893-1901: Mark Hanna (P-OH) with James B. Weaver (P-OH)
1892 def.: John Quincy Adams II/Isaac Grey (Democratic), Benjamin Harrison/Gideon T. Stewart (Liberal)
1896 def.: William R. Day/Philander C. Knox (Republican), Richard Olney/David R. Francis (Democratic)
1901-1909: Chauncey Depew (R-NY) with Cornelius Bliss (R-NY)
1900 def.: Walter Q. Gresham/John Lind (Democratic), Garret Hobart/Elihu Root (Populist)
1904 def.: Elihu Root/William Henry Moody (Populist), Nelson A. Miles/Francis Cockrell (Democratic)
1909-1912: Anthony Comstock (D-NJ) with Theodore Roosevelt (D-NY, before Progressive)
1908 def.: Cornelius Bliss/Victor H. Metcalf (Republican), George W. Wickersham/William H. Taft (Progressive)
1912-1921: Theodore Roosevelt (P-OH) with Charles Dawes (P-OH)
1912 def.: Robert La Follette/George von Lengerke Meyer (Republican), Thomas Marshall/John Burke (Democratic), Eugene Debs/Emil Seidel (Social Democratic)
1916 def.: Franklin Knight Lane/Oswald West (Democratic), Fred M. Warner/John W. Weeks (Republican), Eugene Debs/Emil Seidel (Social Democratic)
1921-1925: Charles G. Dawes (P-OH) with Frank Orren Lowden (D-IL)
1920 def.: Harry M. Daugherty/Henry Cantwell Wallace (Republican), Robert Latham Owen (Democratic), Frank B. Kellogg (Progressive), Eugene Debs/Seymour Stedman (Social Democratic)
1925-1929: Eugene V. Debs (SD-IN) with Jeanette Rankin (SD-MO)
1924 def.: Charles G. Dawes/Hubert Work (Progressive), Charles W. Bryan/Albert B. Fall (Democratic), Burton K. Wheeler/Rober M. La Follette (Republican)
1929-1937: Frank Orren Lowden (D-IL) with Malcolm Nichols (R-MA), then Henry Ford (D-MI)
1928 def.: Calvin Coolidge (Republican), Eugene V. Debs/Jeanette Rankin (Social Democratic), Frank B. Willis (Democratic)
1932 def.: Franklin Delano Roosevelt/Norman Thomas (Social Democratic), Frank Lowden/Malcolm Nichols (Republican)
1937-1948: Franklin Delano Roosevelt (SD-NY) with Al Smith (SD-NY), then Norman Thomas (SD-OH)
1936 def.: Hubert Work/Alf Landon (Republican), Frank Orren Lowden/Henry Ford (Democratic)
1940 def.: David I. Walsh/Harry S. Truman (Democratic), Robert A. Taft/Hanford MacNider (Republican)
1944 def.: Harry S. Truman/Robert Dewey (Democratic-Republican)
1948-1949: Norman Thomas (SD-OH)
1949-1957: Henry A. Wallace (DR-CT) with Dwight Eisenhower (DR-KS)
1948 def.: Norman Thomas/Albert Hawkes (Social Democratic)
1952 def.: Hubert Humphrey/Warren Magnuson (Social Democratic)
1957-1965: Thomas S. Gates Jr. (DR-PA) with Margaret Chase Smith (DR-ME)
1956 def.: Warren Magnuson/Adlai Stevenson II (Social Democratic)
1960 def.: Warren Magnuson/John F. Kennedy (Social Democratic)
1965-1973: Robert F. Kennedy (SD-NY) with Henry M. Jackson (SD-WA)
1964 def.: Margaret Chase Smith/Wayne Morse (Democratic-Republican), Richard Nixon/Cecil H. Underwood (Liberty)
1968 def.: Philip Hart/Eugene McCarthy (Democratic-Republican), Ronald Reagan/Spiro Agnew (Liberty)
1973-1981: Jeane Kirkpatrick (DR-CA) with Nelson Rockefeller (DR-NY)
1972 def.: William Guy/George McGovern (Social Democratic), Curtis LeMay/John G. Schmitz (Liberty)
1976 def.: Robert Byrd/Alan Cranston (Social Democratic), John G. Schmitz/Gerald Ford (Liberty)
1981-1983: Nelson Rockefeller (DR-NY) with John B. Anderson (DR-IL)
1980 def.: Walter Mondale/Bob Dole (Social Democratic), Larry Pressler/Phil Crane (Liberty)
1983-1985: John B. Anderson (DR-IL)
1985-1993: John Glenn (SD-CA) with Jesse Jackson (SD-IL)
1984 def.: John B. Anderson/Geraldine Ferraro (Democratic-Republican), Jack Kemp/Donald Rumsfeld (Liberty)
1988 def.: Pat Schroeder/Jerry Brown (Democratic-Republican), Frank Carlucci/David Karnes (Liberty)
1993-2001: Olympia Snowe (DR-ME) with Arlen Specter (DR-PA)
1992 def.: Jesse Jackson/Hugh Hefner (Social Democratic), Bob Kerrey/J. James Exon (National-Liberty)
1996 def.: Steve Forbes/Newt Gingrich (Social Democratic), Jerry Brown/Richard Lugar (National-Liberty)
2001-2005: Herbert W. Bush (SD-CA) with Wesley Clark (SD-PA)
2000 def.: Olympia Snowe/Howard Dean (Democratic-Republican), Richard Lugar/Joe Lieberman (National-Liberty)
2005-2013: Mike Bloomberg (NL-NY) with Ralph Nader (NL-NY)
2004 def.: Herbert W. Bush/Wesley Clark (Social Democratic), Dick Cheney/Donald Rumsfeld (Democratic-Republican)
2008 def.: John McCain III/Mike Gravel (Social Democratic), Alan Keyes/Mitt Romney (Democratic-Republican)
2013-2017: Sylvia Burwell (DR-WA) with Mitt Romney (DR-MA)
2012 def.: Richard Lugar/Paul Ryan (National-Liberty), Noah Chomsky/Bernie Sanders (Social Democratic)
2017-present: Kirsten Gillibrand (SD-NY) with Bill de Blasio (SD-NY), then Charlie Baker (DR-MA)
2016 def.: Sylvia Burwell/Mitt Romney (Democratic-Republican), Pete Ricketts/Terry Goddard (National-Liberty)
2020 def.: Bill de Blasio (Social Democratic), John Kasich (Democratic-Republican), Pete Buttigieg/Bill Weld (National-Liberty)
NOTE: This is the actual OTL List of the Presidents of the United States before the PoD takes place
