A divided Bronze Age China

I mean cultures like Shijiahe, Liangzhu, Sanxingdui. They had achieved a significant degree of sophistication and urbanization by the end of the Neolithic; after all, the city of Shijiahe was actually (probably) more populous than Erlitou in Henan. But the south never made the development that occurred in northern China with the emergence of truly developed states such as the Shang, and as we all know the center of China became the north. What if it was different, so the Yangtze and the Yellow had remained multiple parallel centers of mutually interacting civilizations, as it was during the late Neolithic? How would world history be changed?
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Typically, world history would likely be very different - but it would all depend on the structure of a South-China culture.

Part of the issue is terrain - Northern China has the right terrain to force unification - difficult to defend territories.

Southern China has the opposite problem, defensible terrain, where every town can be in its own natural fortress. (I exaggerate, but you can see the point here).

You need someone to successfully unify them, either with military force, or a fantastic diplomat. Follow that up with strong infrastructure projects (preferably designed to create inter-dependence) and encourage towns to specialize so that they depend on each other more - creating a stronger bond between them.

The best starting point in my opinion? Have someone on the coast develop much better trading links - that added income, and overseas resources can then be funneled to nation-building in south China. - My choice, the Li People of Hainan. Have someone unify them, and then the next generation can pop across the water to conquer southern China bit by bit - and create a suitable capital and infrastructure.
 
Well, we shouldn't exaggerate the divisive tendencies of the Yangtze region too much, although it's true that hills are bad for major state-building. It's been speculated that Shijiahe was a state on par with Erlitou, for example, although it's hard to know because Shijiahe left no writing and apparently rapidly disintegrated towards its end.

I think Liangzhu would be a better match than Hainan for the model you mentioned because Hainan is jungle and practically in the middle of nowhere really whereas Liangzhu had access to two major sources of transport (the Yangtze and the sea).
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I'd be a bigger fan of settlements of the Pearl River myself - the Liangzhu is too northern to avoid being drawn into the conflicts on the North China Plain in my opinion.

Though it would be a fantastic northernmost city for a Southern Chinese nation - it can be a great fortress to protect the south.

Perhaps both might be useful - a major city on the Pearl River unites the basin, using the river for shipping, and the Liangzhu trade with them, develop their own strength, and conquer the inland valleys just off the main Chinese plain. (At work, I can't really look them up). This would create a "Inner/Central China", "Southern China" and "Northern China" - Although Central China would be the most vulnerable to invasions from within China, the others have significant external threats.
 
I'd be a bigger fan of settlements of the Pearl River myself - the Liangzhu is too northern to avoid being drawn into the conflicts on the North China Plain in my opinion.

Though it would be a fantastic northernmost city for a Southern Chinese nation - it can be a great fortress to protect the south.

Perhaps both might be useful - a major city on the Pearl River unites the basin, using the river for shipping, and the Liangzhu trade with them, develop their own strength, and conquer the inland valleys just off the main Chinese plain. (At work, I can't really look them up). This would create a "Inner/Central China", "Southern China" and "Northern China" - Although Central China would be the most vulnerable to invasions from within China, the others have significant external threats.

Well, I think due to the presence of the Southeast Asian Massif / Zomia and the mountainous terrain of inland Fujian (and also Taiwan) a Pearl River-centered state will find it difficult to be significantly larger than Nanyue. A state that unifies both the Yellow and Yangtze Basins will be able to exert power far greater than anything a Guangdong-oriented state can sum up, which makes it unlikely that the Pearl River state will go any further than being at best just another more significant Vietnam/Korea.

Your second idea seems better though, although it's still an uphill battle to keep North China from gobbling up the rest (especially given the natural demographic advantage the Central Chinese Plain has).
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Nanyue is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of, but some improvements in engineering would make the mountains less imposing - and provide better defenses, and logistics.

Though I wonder if a Nanyue that had a stronger overseas presence would handle this? If it had a fortress-city on the North China plain, enabling them to play favorites, and prevent the north from uniting under anyone. If the also had colonies in those territories around the south-china sea, then they'd be able to ship those armies back home if the North ever did unite.

Plus another option we've ignored is a strong (non-coastal) central china civilisation that is strong enough to counter the north, but not conquer it, which could work as an ally of Alt-Nanyue. It'd be more defensible than a full band of central china, although it lose coastal access.

Perhaps we have a mixture of the two. Alt-Nanyue conquers/colonises the area the Liangzhu control (to open up access to nearby markets), and assist the establishment of a few allies in the North Chinese plain, and in the centre of china. Allied, everything is great, but both Central China and Alt-Nanyue would need each other if the North China plain unites too early. Something the mercantile Nanyue may recognize as a threat
 
Northern China was the first 'transmission point' for Eurasian technologies, and to an extent that gives them an edge over their southern counterparts. Chariots and bronze weaponry, for example, came to China via the overland corridor from Central Asia - and while there's an argument for the southeast developing their own indigenous casting techniques, the north would always possess a technological advantage of sorts which allowed for prodigious military expansion (i.e. Wu Ding and Di's campaigns, the Zhou conquest). Certainly you had places like Panlongcheng and Wucheng which seem to be analogous with Erligang/Shang culture, which suggests some sort of tributary/conquest process.

It's also possible that climactic changes were occurring at this time to which the south was simply less well-adjusted for. Intense campaigning during the late Shang and the beginning of the nomadic tradition in Mongolia suggests environmental pressures within the region that might have broken southern cultures. The relative isolation of Yangtze cultures due to terrain might have been a detriment to this end.

Lastly, one wonders if there is only room in China for one 'truly developed' civilization. Certainly Shang demand for tin and porcelain resulted in a pan-China 'network' (if not even greater control) with its heart in the Henan region. Similarly, the Zhou ritual system eventually became the dominant political system in China, with even 'barbarian' civilizations like Chu, Wu and Yue seeking to participate in it.

That said, certainly during the early Zhou period the proto-Chu were seen to be a dangerous foe to the Zhou, and during the early 9thC BC Chu managed to defeat and kill King Zhao of Zhou, thereby halting Zhou's southwards expansion. So it's not like the Yellow River cultures were dominant across China.
 
Northern China was the first 'transmission point' for Eurasian technologies, and to an extent that gives them an edge over their southern counterparts. Chariots and bronze weaponry, for example, came to China via the overland corridor from Central Asia - and while there's an argument for the southeast developing their own indigenous casting techniques, the north would always possess a technological advantage of sorts which allowed for prodigious military expansion (i.e. Wu Ding and Di's campaigns, the Zhou conquest). Certainly you had places like Panlongcheng and Wucheng which seem to be analogous with Erligang/Shang culture, which suggests some sort of tributary/conquest process.

Well, there's still dispute about bronze-working, and Shijiahe was working copper anyways. You're correct on saying that the geographical positioning of the north allowed them a greater technological prowess, but then, it's not necessarily the case that Iran has dominated the Middle East despite its more favorable position WRT the transmission of technologies from the outside world. Technological differences are recoverable.

It's also possible that climactic changes were occurring at this time to which the south was simply less well-adjusted for. Intense campaigning during the late Shang and the beginning of the nomadic tradition in Mongolia suggests environmental pressures within the region that might have broken southern cultures. The relative isolation of Yangtze cultures due to terrain might have been a detriment to this end.

This isn't really it; I'm talking about Shijiahe and Liangzhu, the great Neolithic cultures of the middle and lower Yangtze, which mostly collapsed long before the Shang and the reason for which was probably climate-induced (and can be reversed in AH). Hubei, for example, did not fully recover from the decline of Shijiahe until the introduction of the Erligang culture from the north (hence Panlongcheng).

Lastly, one wonders if there is only room in China for one 'truly developed' civilization. Certainly Shang demand for tin and porcelain resulted in a pan-China 'network' (if not even greater control) with its heart in the Henan region. Similarly, the Zhou ritual system eventually became the dominant political system in China, with even 'barbarian' civilizations like Chu, Wu and Yue seeking to participate in it.

That said, certainly during the early Zhou period the proto-Chu were seen to be a dangerous foe to the Zhou, and during the early 9thC BC Chu managed to defeat and kill King Zhao of Zhou, thereby halting Zhou's southwards expansion. So it's not like the Yellow River cultures were dominant across China.

There were major trade and interaction networks in China before the rise of Erligang/Shang hegemony (for example, the Six Ritual Jades originate from Liangzhu but are found in both Shang and Shijiahe sites) that operated well enough despite lacking centralized authority. The Zhou system did become the dominant political system in China, but was that truly predetermined? I don't necessarily think that's the case.
 
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