A different World War 2

This scenario is something that I have thought about for a while. What would the military implications be for the following scenario.
The war in the Pacific does not occur as the Japanese do not attack China in 1937, there is no trade embargo and no need for war.
However the USA become involved in the European war sometime between Dec 1941 - Feb 1942 as the result of an incident in the Atlantic, say a major US warship being sunk with all hands by a U-Boat.
Up until September 1942 the war progresses as per OTL, then the Germans capture Stalingrad and manage to stop the USSR’s counter offensive. Due to less losses for the Germans and more the Soviets, the Kursk Offensive is successful and a major soviet army is destroyed. Either a military Coup gets rid of stalin and they sue for peace or Stalin himself asks for peace. The eastern war finishes Oct 43.
For the western allies the war up to Aug 43 goes as our OTL i.e. operation Torch takes place the Germans are thrown out of Africa and Sciliy is taken.
What happens now? What military strategy do the Western Allies follow? With no Pacific do we see a bigger American army but a smaller (though still large) naval build up? Do they invade Italy? What happens in Iran?
 
This scenario is something that I have thought about for a while. What would the military implications be for the following scenario.
The war in the Pacific does not occur as the Japanese do not attack China in 1937, there is no trade embargo and no need for war.
However the USA become involved in the European war sometime between Dec 1941 - Feb 1942 as the result of an incident in the Atlantic, say a major US warship being sunk with all hands by a U-Boat.
Up until September 1942 the war progresses as per OTL, then the Germans capture Stalingrad and manage to stop the USSR’s counter offensive. Due to less losses for the Germans and more the Soviets, the Kursk Offensive is successful and a major soviet army is destroyed. Either a military Coup gets rid of stalin and they sue for peace or Stalin himself asks for peace. The eastern war finishes Oct 43.
For the western allies the war up to Aug 43 goes as our OTL i.e. operation Torch takes place the Germans are thrown out of Africa and Sciliy is taken.
What happens now? What military strategy do the Western Allies follow? With no Pacific do we see a bigger American army but a smaller (though still large) naval build up? Do they invade Italy? What happens in Iran?

Stalin would be a fool to sue for a separate peace at that point. It will be obvious just how large the US/Uk build up is, and they'll be all over Italy by that point in time, not to mention flattening the German industrial base.
Even if defeated as described, the Soviets obvious best strategy is to hold on, trade territoty for time if needed, while building up an army to attack once germany is fully preoccupied in the west. Germany has to keep the troops in thye East, and that way Russia gets a seat when they divvy up the spoils. If they sue for peace, they get nothing.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Up until September 1942 the war progresses as per OTL, then the Germans capture Stalingrad and manage to stop the USSR’s counter offensive. Due to less losses for the Germans and more the Soviets, the Kursk Offensive is successful and a major soviet army is destroyed.

If the Germans win at Stalingrad, the Battle of Kursk would never take place.
 
I can't see the Japanese staying quiet. They were some ambitious little devils. As far as Russia goes, I cannot see the Soviets giving in at all after they kept the Germans from taking Moscow.
 
I can't see the Japanese staying quiet. They were some ambitious little devils. As far as Russia goes, I cannot see the Soviets giving in at all after they kept the Germans from taking Moscow.
Very true. There is no way that Japan will just sit on its hands while its German allies are reaping glory conquering Europe. I think that Japan is likely to intervene in the Eastern Front when Germany attacks in 1941-after all, the Army wants glory, and they have a massive army sitting around not doing anything. The Soviets cannot withstand a 2-front war, so they probably fold by winter 1941 without the Siberian divisions to save Moscow. They will not fold by choice, but they will fold. After that, Asia is Japan's playground.
 
The Japanese government were not all expansionist, and it is plausible to see a non expansionist clique in power.

I have read before that stalin was considering suing for terms in Oct 1941, why not now after two more huge defeats?

Where I wrote kursk I should have written kursk like battle.

Basicaly im trying to get a scenario where you have the USA and UK alone against Germany in the late war period, and then explore the consequences. Any ideas anyone.
 
The Japanese government were not all expansionist, and it is plausible to see a non expansionist clique in power.

I have read before that stalin was considering suing for terms in Oct 1941, why not now after two more huge defeats?

Where I wrote kursk I should have written kursk like battle.

Basicaly im trying to get a scenario where you have the USA and UK alone against Germany in the late war period, and then explore the consequences. Any ideas anyone.


Ok assume that Stalin sued for peace and the Soviets are out of the war. That needs clarification, however. Are they out of the war for good, or has Russia been carved up and is either partially or entirely a German puppet state? I can't see the Germans walking away without dismembering Russia and then having to devote a large ammount of resources to keeping the Russians pacified. Mother Russia is a huge country. As long as the Russian partisans stay effective, it helps the US/UK cause. But if not, then the road gets longer and harder for the erstwhile Allied cause.
 
Ok assume that Stalin sued for peace and the Soviets are out of the war. That needs clarification, however. Are they out of the war for good, or has Russia been carved up and is either partially or entirely a German puppet state? I can't see the Germans walking away without dismembering Russia and then having to devote a large ammount of resources to keeping the Russians pacified. Mother Russia is a huge country. As long as the Russian partisans stay effective, it helps the US/UK cause. But if not, then the road gets longer and harder for the erstwhile Allied cause.

My thinking on this is. the Russians get a puppet state behind the Urals, and arms limitations. The Germans get the rest, and begin to carry out there lunatic plans. There would almost certainly be large scale partisan warfare, this together with the need to watch the rump russia would probably take up about 80-100 mainly infantry divisons.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I have read before that stalin was considering suing for terms in Oct 1941, why not now after two more huge defeats?

Because in October of 1941, the United States is not directly involved in the war, meaning that the possibility of a complete German victory remains real. But after the United States joins in, and especially without the Pacific War to prevent them from focusing all their energy on Europe, the defeat of Germany is only a matter of time. The Soviets would know this, and would know that they merely need to hold on in order to achieve ultimate victory.
 
My thinking on this is. the Russians get a puppet state behind the Urals, and arms limitations. The Germans get the rest, and begin to carry out there lunatic plans. There would almost certainly be large scale partisan warfare, this together with the need to watch the rump russia would probably take up about 80-100 mainly infantry divisons.

That's pretty plausible. Long story short, that scenario would mean that Enola Gay and Bocks Car would have visited Hamburg and Berlin instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki respectively. And a heck of a lot more Jews, gyspies, Catholics, homosexuals and invalids would have died before we could have liberated the camps.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
That's pretty plausible.

Actually, it's completely implausible. The Nazi vision of a post-war empire in the former USSR was always completely deluded. Even without organized resistance, the stress of attempting it would break the logistical system of the German army, not to mention cause the collapse of the German economy.
 
What is it about my us Brits and Americans?

The bulk of the German casualties and resources were on the Eastern Front. Not the Western Front. The USSR did the vast majority of the heavy lifting in WWII and we are totally unwilling to admit it. After D Day the Germans fought much harder in the East than in the West where surrendering was a palatable option which it was not in the East.

In short D Day could not have happened if the German were not involved in an active full scale total war in the Soviet Union. The bombing campaign would have been far bloodier for the Allied Air Forces if the Germans had freed up their military resources from the East.

Which leaves nuclear weapons as the only method that the USA/ UK could make the Germans give up. How the Nazi leadership would have coped with an atomic bombing would not be clear but there is a very good chance that the aircraft carrying it could be shot down with the possibility of replicating the technology.. If the Germans fight on expect Chemical weapons to arrive in southern England via V1 and V2s.

This pointless slaughter would continue until Herr Hitler was in the vicinity of a mushroom cloud which may take some time as he would probable retreat into his newly created Eastern Empire out of bomber range
 
What is it about my us Brits and Americans?

The bulk of the German casualties and resources were on the Eastern Front. Not the Western Front. The USSR did the vast majority of the heavy lifting in WWII and we are totally unwilling to admit it. After D Day the Germans fought much harder in the East than in the West where surrendering was a palatable option which it was not in the East.

In short D Day could not have happened if the German were not involved in an active full scale total war in the Soviet Union. The bombing campaign would have been far bloodier for the Allied Air Forces if the Germans had freed up their military resources from the East.

Which leaves nuclear weapons as the only method that the USA/ UK could make the Germans give up. How the Nazi leadership would have coped with an atomic bombing would not be clear but there is a very good chance that the aircraft carrying it could be shot down with the possibility of replicating the technology.. If the Germans fight on expect Chemical weapons to arrive in southern England via V1 and V2s.

This pointless slaughter would continue until Herr Hitler was in the vicinity of a mushroom cloud which may take some time as he would probable retreat into his newly created Eastern Empire out of bomber range

Im not denying that the soviets did most of the fighting.

I do not see a D-Day analogue as being impossible. Yes the Germans free up resources but they still have to fight a partisan war in the east which would tie down 80-100 divisons.There would be a further number of divisons bordering Iran to face off against British forces there, plus 30 or so for the Italian front. Added to this are garrisons in the Balkans, Norway, Denmark all of which will be at OTL level or higher as in this scenario with no Pacific war the W Allies will have a lot of amphibious resources in europe. How many extra divisons would they actualy find for France?

As for the Bomber offensive being more bloody , by Jan 44-Feb 44 in OTL the vast majority of Luftwaffe fighters were already in Germany and that did not help them.
 
Disagree rip89

D Day would be impossible for several reasons

There is no way partisan activity would take up as much of the German Army as the Red Army in the field did.
The partisan activity would be counteracted with mainly manpower assets rather than capital assets with ethnic cleansing SS style. So extra tanks planes and yes manpower would have been available to repel any amphibious attack

This scenario would either cause D Day to be cancelled due to the casualty projections being unpalatable especially in Washington where there would still be an underlying feeling that ‘its’ not our war’.
Or D day would go ahead with horrendous casualties inflicted by battle hardened veterans against untied troops in a failed invasion attempt

So would Roosevelt / Truman sanction the use of the bomb?
 

Typo

Banned
The Japanese government were not all expansionist, and it is plausible to see a non expansionist clique in power.

I have read before that stalin was considering suing for terms in Oct 1941, why not now after two more huge defeats?

Where I wrote kursk I should have written kursk like battle.

Basicaly im trying to get a scenario where you have the USA and UK alone against Germany in the late war period, and then explore the consequences. Any ideas anyone.

There's a huge huge difference between oct 1941 and anything after the Moscow counteroffensive. The Germans didn't look like they -could- be beaten in 1941
 
Disagree rip89

D Day would be impossible for several reasons

There is no way partisan activity would take up as much of the German Army as the Red Army in the field did.
The partisan activity would be counteracted with mainly manpower assets rather than capital assets with ethnic cleansing SS style. So extra tanks planes and yes manpower would have been available to repel any amphibious attack

This scenario would either cause D Day to be cancelled due to the casualty projections being unpalatable especially in Washington where there would still be an underlying feeling that ‘its’ not our war’.
Or D day would go ahead with horrendous casualties inflicted by battle hardened veterans against untied troops in a failed invasion attempt

So would Roosevelt / Truman sanction the use of the bomb?

Ok I fully accept that the Germans will have more of everything to confront an invasion.

But the Allies will also have more resources. The vast majority of the allied forces used against Japan would be availabe for use in europe in this scenario, even with a scaled back USN, thats alot more amphibious resources, so you could expect an Anvil like operation to take place at the same time as D-Day.

In this scenario with less resources needed on the USN (though it would still be large), you would probably see a larger US army. The problem would be taking the Beaches, but if the German defensive efforts scaled up, surley in this scenario the allied offensive efforts would be as well.

Also with the transport net in france severly degraded, and allied fighter bombers roaming the skies how quickly could the extra armored reserves move to the beach heads?

The Luftwaffe would still be heavily outnumberd and you would see B29's over europe.
 
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