A Different War of the Roses

hey, all. another possibility im exploring. basically, i want to get some extra opinions about what everyone thinks about these two scenarios:

  • the Wars of the Roses begin earlier, perhaps triggered by an earlier mental breakdown of Henry VI (let's say in the late 1430s or 1440s rather than in 1455) and end earlier than they did historically (the OTL end-date was in 1485, thirty years after they started)
  • the wars begin earlier than OTL (same as in Scenario #1) but end at an earlier time due to heavy losses by both sides
finally, how does everyone think this would affect the rise of the tudors and on the hundred years' war?
 
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Virtually any POD during or anywhere near the Wars of the Roses butterflies the Tudors away; they only came to power because the Yorkists had liquidated most of the Lancastrians after Edward IV's return from exile.

As for the Hundred Years War; a more stable England would almost certainly mean war with France, given at that point the memories of Agincourt and Henry V's success were still relatively fresh in peoples minds, hell, most of the nobles fighting in the Wars of the Roses had fought alongside Henry, or at least knew people who had. If the Wars end with Henry VI being made a puppet king by one side or the other then his claim could be used to further the war. Alternatively, an early Yorkist victory could end the war early as they were overall less concerned with French dynastic politics.
 
It kind of all depends on who comes out of these modified WOTR in a position of power. If as mentioned in scenario two, they end because of the sheer volume of causulties (presumably nobles as well as the general public) it is unlikely that England will be in any position to interfere in France.
 
I'm not sure the Tudors are so easily butterflied away. Even if legitimate Beauforts remained, Henry Tudor was the senior legitimate heir of the Beaufort. He was also the closest relative of Henry VI, giving him an additional right to the throne by proximity of blood.
 
thanks for all your input so far. looking back, i'd like to ask about another supposition: how does everyone think the war would have gone had Henry VI not been restored to teh throne? perhaps he dies earlier than he does following his first deposition, or is simply killed in battle. as a result, Edward IV continues his reign uninterrupted until his death. does anyone think this would drastically affect the outcome?
 
thanks for all your input so far. looking back, i'd like to ask about another supposition: how does everyone think the war would have gone had Henry VI not been restored to teh throne? perhaps he dies earlier than he does following his first deposition, or is simply killed in battle. as a result, Edward IV continues his reign uninterrupted until his death. does anyone think this would drastically affect the outcome?

I am currently working on a TL were this is the main POD, was hoping to have started posting some of it by next weekend :D but in mine the wars last alot longer as Edward of Lancaster survives due to no battle of Tewkesbury, causing more problems for York down the line
 
I am currently working on a TL were this is the main POD, was hoping to have started posting some of it by next weekend :D but in mine the wars last alot longer as Edward of Lancaster survives due to no battle of Tewkesbury, causing more problems for York down the line
perhaps we can compare and contrast? i was planning for a slightly earlier POD as well in which Edmund Tudor isnt captured and goes on to depose Richard III after he takes the throne at an earlier time; Edmund becomes the first Tudor king while Henry VII succeeds him
 
perhaps we can compare and contrast? i was planning for a slightly earlier POD as well in which Edmund Tudor isnt captured and goes on to depose Richard III after he takes the throne at an earlier time; Edmund becomes the first Tudor king while Henry VII succeeds him

Absolutely! :)

My POD is Warwick's Lancastrian rebellion in 1470 fails, Warwick and a couple of others die, leaving the Lancastrian's stuck in France but Edward of Lancaster lives longer, prolonging the wars and making the reign of Edward IV even more turbulent.

Very interested in your idea, good to see WOTR threads making abit of a comeback on here, havent seen many in the last couple of months ;) Are you going to have Edmund claim the throne on behalf of his wife, as I believe it was she who gave Henry VII his Plantagenet royal blood? And an earlier Richard III has me hooked already!
 
Absolutely! :)

My POD is Warwick's Lancastrian rebellion in 1470 fails, Warwick and a couple of others die, leaving the Lancastrian's stuck in France but Edward of Lancaster lives longer, prolonging the wars and making the reign of Edward IV even more turbulent.

Very interested in your idea, good to see WOTR threads making abit of a comeback on here, havent seen many in the last couple of months ;) Are you going to have Edmund claim the throne on behalf of his wife, as I believe it was she who gave Henry VII his Plantagenet royal blood? And an earlier Richard III has me hooked already!
what ive written up so far is that

  • the war begins a bit earlier than IOTL when Henry VI has his mental breakdown some years before he historically did but which still lasts for quite a while (you could probably place the beginning about halfway between the OTL death of Joan of Arc and his OTL breakdown; the breakdown is kinda spurred by crushing French victories under Joan's leadership during TTL's Hundred Years' War)
  • Henry VI is deposed in 1453 rather than 1461 and is replaced by Edward of York (he's called Edward III ITTL rather than Edward IV due to butterflies)
  • Edward himself is killed, rather than captured or deposed, during the Battle of Mortimer's Cross, which occurs at the same time as IOTL and was still orchestrated by Richard Neville. however, Henry VI has already died while imprisoned due to neglect and Richard of Gloucester hurriedly takes the throne in that same year
  • Richard's role as king is pretty much the same as IOTL, but stretched out between 1461 and 1468 and many Lancastrians and other Yorkists die because Richard doesnt want much competition for the throne
  • in the spring of 1468, Edmund Tudor and teh remaining Lancastrians return from exile (in Denmark rather than France due to butterflies) and they defeat Richard in a battle virtually identical to Bosworth Field (though i decided to place it at Bardon Hill instead due to butterflies and for a vague Arthurian reference ;))
  • Edmund then founds the House of Tudor and becomes king as Edmund IV (again due to butterflies).
keep in mind that the ATL in which this takes place is ASB, though im trying to make it as plausible as possible, which is part of why i made this trhead in the first place ;)

EDIT: i decided to rework the summary into a list so that its easier to read
 
I've always wondered what different fates there could be for Anne Neville.

Anne Neville is an interesting figure due to her relationship to both York and Lancaster and the role she played in her father's political plans.

In my TL she is certainly an important figure, although to begin with she will have a rather miserable time, being an unwanted 'guest' of the Lancastrians.
 
Edmund Tudor could only take the throne jure uxoris, or by right of conquest, although the two combined might be sufficient.

His son could then marry the Yorkist heiress.

EDIT: Alternatively, Henry VI could actively arrange a marriage for him with Antigone Plantagenet, daughter of his uncle Humphrey Lancaster, Duke of Gloucester and his mistress-cum-wife Eleanor Cobham, as a way of providing a Lancastrian succession.
 
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