A *Different* Vinland

Randy Andy

Banned
So I've searched the Forum and there are plenty of topics and TL's about a Vinland surviving from Leif Ericsson's voyage in the 1000's, but this idea goes along different lines. Recently I've finished Jane Smiley's "The Greenlanders" (a great read no matter what), and it got me thinking. What if, in the mid-late 14th century, a group of Norse Greenlanders began to voyage to Vinland and Markland for timber and other resources, and set up temporary summer camps and then, as weather conditions and social factors in Greenland force them away, eventually become permanent settlers?

What's the likelihood of this happening, and would it be possible for them to easily move down into what are now New Brunswick, Quebec around the St. Lawrence River, and New England, instead of having to stay up in what is now Newfoundland and northern Quebec?
 

Randy Andy

Banned
Sounds like OTL? :confused:

What if, in the mid-late 14th century, a group of Norse Greenlanders began to voyage to Vinland and Markland for timber and other resources, and set up temporary summer camps and then, as weather conditions and social factors in Greenland force them away, eventually become permanent settlers?

What part of the italicized and bolded text above is OTL? Sorry if I didn't clarify, but I mean permanent settlers with a distinctly Norse or hybrid cultural and linguistic identity. I thought that would be clear from the context.
 
Some believe that the Vikings made it as far as the Great Lakes region. And if
Vinland succeeded then their longships could have taken them at least as far as the Moundbuilders and probably more then that.
 
What part of the italicized and bolded text above is OTL? Sorry if I didn't clarify, but I mean permanent settlers with a distinctly Norse or hybrid cultural and linguistic identity. I thought that would be clear from the context.
Yes, but this sounds exactly like what the Western Settlement of Greenland did in around 1350, when they emigrated to continental North America and settled among the pagans, according to church sources. What happened to them later is unknown, but there are theories linking them with the Mandan tribe that was wiped out shortly after 1800 AD. The Mandans had many members with blond hair, and had some traditions that seemed to be derived from Christianity.

There was also a Swedish-Norwegian expedition that went out to North America to search for them sometime around 1360.

EDIT: I bought the Greenlanders some years ago, but haven't read it yet ...
 
What kind of different Vinland are we talking about here? Because "Vinland" could also have been recreated if say Denmark-Norway or Sweden began to colonize North America.
 

Randy Andy

Banned
Yes, but this sounds exactly like what the Western Settlement of Greenland did in around 1350, when they emigrated to continental North America and settled among the pagans, according to church sources. What happened to them later is unknown, but there are theories linking them with the Mandan tribe that was wiped out shortly after 1800 AD. The Mandans had many members with blond hair, and had some traditions that seemed to be derived from Christianity.

There was also a Swedish-Norwegian expedition that went out to North America to search for them sometime around 1360.

EDIT: I bought the Greenlanders some years ago, but haven't read it yet ...

See, this is what I don't want; and I'm sorry, you're right, I wasn't clear enough. I want them to become permanent settlers, and to retain their culture and religion. I know that the entire Greenland colony at that time only held about one or two thousand people, but I think that if they moved to the southerly, more fertile parts of what is now Canada, or to OTL New England, they might succeed.

What kind of different Vinland are we talking about here? Because "Vinland" could also have been recreated if say Denmark-Norway or Sweden began to colonize North America.

I'm specifically looking for a Vinland parallel that's settled by the Greenlanders, and almost exclusively by the Greenlanders. As conditions in Greenland worsen, they all basically move to Markland or Vinland, or maybe a bit further south. The main theme would be one of social and cultural isolation over one or two centuries.
 
To be culturally isolated they would need to settle far from the natives, perhaps on something like Anticosti Island, if that could hold a few thousand Greenlanders (can it?). From Anticosti, they can expand to Prince Edward Island, and then to Newfoundland, and if that becomes too small, take over the Nova Scotia peninsula, but they might not have become that many in the three hundred years they have until the colonists arrive en masse in the 1600s.
 
I've wondered at times just why the Greenlanders didn't move entirely to Vinland/N. America when conditions in Greenland became intolerable. Did they just wait too long and not have any ships left/trapped in the ice? I suppose it was difficult to think of uprooting yourselves from your long established homes to go settling in the wilderness.
Still, if you can get past the POD required to get the entire Greenland population to move, that's enough people to get it done. If they settled on Newfoundland island, I think they'd actually have more land (Greenland is bigger, but huge chunks of it are ice cap/useless), and better land. The natives that were a problem to the 100 or so settlers back in Karlsefni's day wouldn't be much of a problem with 1-2000 people there. Grim as it is to say, the Greenlanders could probably wipe out the natives or completely absorb them; and since Newfoundland is an island, they'd be pretty secure after that...
 
Grim as it is to say, the Greenlanders could probably wipe out the natives or completely absorb them; and since Newfoundland is an island, they'd be pretty secure after that...
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No more secure than they were on Greenland when the natives moved onto the island with them. And the climate was getting colder, winter was longer, harvests were declining. It's possible some went west and some went east and Greenland settlement fell apart.
 
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No more secure than they were on Greenland when the natives moved onto the island with them. And the climate was getting colder, winter was longer, harvests were declining. It's possible some went west and some went east and Greenland settlement fell apart.

possibly, but the Greenland natives arrived when the Greenlanders were already starving, dying, and leaving. If the whole population can get itself settled on Newfoundland and survive a couple of years, they'd be a lot better off. Granted, that's a pretty big 'if'....
 

Randy Andy

Banned
So I've just looked up and compared the climates of St. John's, Newfoundland and Nuuk, Greenland. I see only two issues that might come with the upcoming analysis. One is that of course the climate and temperature might be very different from how it was seven hundred or so years ago; however, I think it's actually not an issue. Today's climate is comparable to the climate just before the Little Ice Age that began in the mid-1300's, and in any case seven hundred years are not enough for any radical changes such as tectonic shifts, seabed movements, and warm sea currents to change. The second issue is that Nuuk is a bit further north than the Eastern Settlement of Greenland was, but--I mean, it's Greenland, how different can it be?

So, Newfoundland is about 10 to 20 degrees Fahrenheit warmer on average (month to month daily mean, daily high, daily low, and the total yearly average) than Greenland, has more daylight hours, and has about twice as much precipitation overall. Of course more sunlight and warmer temperatures is good, but the Norse--who are so used to dryer Greenland--might not like the rain of Newfoundland. However, precipitation = less penetrating wind = more secure turf houses. Grasses will grow very fast, and so the Norse agricultural system of mainly baling hay to feed the animals they eat, and hunting birds, reindeer, and seals, and cutting up beached whales for food, can easily be continued.

In fact, it seems as though Newfoundland is a lot better for them, and will lead to an easier life, than Greenland. There's also plenty of timber about, which is a resource that the Greenlanders were sorely lacking. So instead of stinky wet peat fires that required a lot of energy input to acquire, they'll have warm roaring wood fires that are more efficient. This also means extra turves for non-wooden houses.

The only problem I really see with the new Vinlanders' well being and way of life, other than possible Native American animosity, is a reduction in sailing and a dependency on land travel. I think that, within a generation, they would become relatively grounded, with rounding the island and crossing the Gulf of St. Lawrence perhaps being viewed as accomplishments; a small thing compared to crossing the Atlantic, or the freezing iceberg-filled waters of Baffin Bay. This is because the Atlantic is relatively choppy and stormy, and the new Vinlanders have neither the need nor the inclination to build deep-drafted boats. Shipbuilding might become all but unknown within two generations. Also, lack of contact with the Church means earlier independence from Rome? I think so.

Now, I want to know where Newfoundland stands in terms of ore deposits. If the Norse can find iron, then they have an enormous, ludicrous advantage over the Native Americans.

So, what do you all think of this analysis?
 
Newfoundland had bog iron, but I'm not sure if that's enough for all their needs. It had some timber, but I think they'd have to go over to Markland for more. Plus, they'll need to keep boats to go fishing, assuming they keep that up (no reason not to)...
 

Randy Andy

Banned
Newfoundland had bog iron, but I'm not sure if that's enough for all their needs. It had some timber, but I think they'd have to go over to Markland for more. Plus, they'll need to keep boats to go fishing, assuming they keep that up (no reason not to)...

Wasn't bog iron used for almost all Viking and Scottish and English iron artifacts from before this point in time to after? From it they made durable weapons, tools, bits of art or accouterments, wheel hubs, etc; unless Newfoundland has very little bog iron as opposed to the "regular amount", I don't think they'd have any problems.

Ahhh...you're definitely right about the boats, serious oversight on my part. So, yes boats to go out (still well within sight of land), but no ships because no need and no inclination.
 
I do not understand the ship thing. They are not more grounded here than on Greenland, even if they do not have to travel to find trees. Shipbuilding would seem to be easier with an abundance of trees around. Wasn't Iceland shipless in one long period of decline, or am I thinking of Greenland? :confused:
 
I do not understand the ship thing. They are not more grounded here than on Greenland, even if they do not have to travel to find trees. Shipbuilding would seem to be easier with an abundance of trees around. Wasn't Iceland shipless in one long period of decline, or am I thinking of Greenland? :confused:

No, your'e correct.
 
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