A Different Treaty of Versailles

General Zod

Banned
Would Poland need Gydnia if it's getting all of Lithuania? Give them Posen, and nothing more(from Germany).

Well, Posen had a sizable german minority (40%) as well but was seen by Poland as the cradle of their nationn, was Polish majority and was fall in Polish hands when the Kaiser fell, so I suppose it has to be sacrificed anyway. Too bad for those Germans. I suppose most of them shall flee to Germany. Maybe a balanced population echange might be set up between Germans in Posen and Poles in West Prussia and Silesia. This ought to quell any serious irredentist claims from both parts and build a quite stable border.

In order to compensate Poland, perhaps instead it is decided that Germany assist them in safe guarding Ukraine and the Baltics from a Revanchist Bolshevik Russia? While nominally independent, this would effectively allow Poland a free position on the Black Sea.

Yup, but how is Poland going to wrest Ukraine from Bolshevik clutches in the first place ? They need to win the Polish-Soviet War decisively. They need boots on the ground, financial support alone from completely demilitarized Germany won't cut it (and in 1919-21, Germany is hardly in the position to give much of that; since the late 1920s, it is a wholly different picture). Two possbilities, either an Anglo-French intervention, or German veterans (the ones that don't go in the Freikorps to quell Communist insurgencies) are organized in an expeditionary corps, under close Entente supervision, to fight the Bolsheviks. Or maybe a mix of both. Hmm, the German "foreign legion" mgiht actually be a rather good idea to accomplish some much-needed German-Polish reconciliation and win back some clout with the Entente powers (esp. Britain).

It isn't that out-there, all things considered.

Indeed.
 
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General Zod

Banned
For a club of countries which allowed plebiscites in the territories of their defeated enemies and in at least two cases respected the results? This is clearly morally unnacceptable. If they didn't give a shit about Prussian Germans, wouldn't they just give Souther East Prussia to the Poles?



What symbolic importance did part of Germany have to Poland, exactly?



As I said, in the long term, its possible to get both, while avoiding a horrible ethnic cleansing. Even is real-Versailles, non-Nazi Germany never does engineer Anschluss, I as a 1919 Germany (non-Prussian) would demand Prussia over Silesia, Austrian and the Sudetenland. As I understand it, few people in 1919 Germany cared about the Sudetenland: the Czechs were fair and the nazis blew the problem out of all proportion. Likewise, Anschluss was nice, but not worth loosing a large part of the country over. You're expecting Germany to make economic calculations rather than care about its citizens as all countries ought to.



The real Versailles settlement was what? I believe it was a good peace treaty with many flaws which got hijacked by nationalists. Although the Poles were shit in their treatment of minorities, the treaty didn't actually say "kick Germans out of West Prussia", and any treaty without ethnic cleansings is invariably better than a treaty with them. There is no way any percieved injustice of the actual settlement can be compared to driving innocent people from their centuries-old homes.



Germany shouldn't and didn't care as much about " economic substance" as it did about the welfare of Germans.



Why will this peace butterfly away Naziism? Lets assume occupation crisis and depression pretty much as OTL, lets assume the attrocities in Prussia, which as opposed to those in the Sudetenland were actually real, and the exiled East Prussians as a solid nationalist voting bloc... whoops, this was a crap idea.

But on the other hand, many things can avert the Nazis after the OTL peace treaty and thus result in a world where Germany gets a fair deal.



Which claims? The claims of the Nazis and their Polish opposite numbers? Or the dispute over a city which wasn't actually in Poland? Speaking of claims, in "substance" terms, the claims of Czecoslovakia to the Sudetenland are way more plausible than Poland's to any part of Prussia, not to mention the exemplaray Czech treatment of their minorities.

In short, your treaty does nothing to avert Naziism whilst being far ahrsher than Versailles for no good reason.

OK, I see your points, and I drop the idea, as far as Versailles is concerned. I still think it might have been a rather good framework for a post-WWII settlement, however.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Well, Posen had a sizable german minority (40%) as well but was seen by Poland as the cradle of their nationn, was Polish majority and was fall in Polish hands when the Kaiser fell, so I suppose it has to be sacrificed anyway. Too bad for those Germans. I suppose most of them shall flee to Germany. Maybe a balanced population echange might be set up between Germans in Posen and Poles in West Prussia and Silesia. This ought to quell any serious irredentist claims from both parts and build a quite stable border.



Yup, but how is Poland going to wrest Ukraine from Bolshevik clutches in the first place ? They need to win the Polish-Soviet War decisively. They need boots on the ground, financial support alone from completely demilitarized Germany won't cut it (and in 1919-21, Germany is hardly in the position to give much of that; since the late 1920s, it is a wholly different picture). Two possbilities, either an Anglo-French intervention, or German veterans (the ones that don't go in the Freikorps to quell Communist insurgencies) are organized in an expeditionary corps, under close Entente supervision, to fight the Bolsheviks. Or maybe a mix of both. Hmm, the German "foreign legion" mgiht actually be a rather good idea to accomplish some much-needed German-Polish reconciliation and win back some clout with the Entente powers (esp. Britain).



Indeed.

That's roughly what I mean. The German Army will be used in the East. Maybe, in response to the "Good will" being shown, the limitations and demilitarization will be less so?
 

General Zod

Banned
That's roughly what I mean. The German Army will be used in the East. Maybe, in response to the "Good will" being shown, the limitations and demilitarization will be less so?

Quite likely indeed, since containing the Soviets is going to be a major long-term job and even an armed to the teeth Poland-Lithuania is not going to cut it, in the face of eventual Soviet inudstrialization (admittedly, without Ukraine it will be somewhat slower: the Soviet leadership might tap into the resources of Siberia and Central Asia earleir, I suppose). DO you think it would be a Polish-German effort alone, or the Entente powers put some significant boots on the ground of their own ? Fighting the Bolshevik shoulder to shoulder might be a significant compotent in the eventual reconciliation of the european great powers...

Of course, we all know how this is going to head out in a couple of decades...
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Quite likely indeed, since containing the Soviets is going to be a major long-term job and even an armed to the teeth Poland-Lithuania is not going to cut it, in the face of eventual Soviet inudstrialization (admittedly, without Ukraine it will be somewhat slower: the Soviet leadership might tap into the resources of Siberia and Central Asia earleir, I suppose). DO you think it would be a Polish-German effort alone, or the Entente powers put some significant boots on the ground of their own ? Fighting the Bolshevik shoulder to shoulder might be a significant compotent in the eventual reconciliation of the european great powers...

Of course, we all know how this is going to head out in a couple of decades...

Well, if they do fight shoulder to shoulder, we may see an earlier European Union, one that is also quite a bit more centralized.
 

General Zod

Banned
Well, if they do fight shoulder to shoulder, we may see an earlier European Union, one that is also quite a bit more centralized.

Yup, this is very true, as well as a proto-Cold War between the European League and Soviet Russia (which would inevitably turn hot in the late 1930s - early 1940s when the Soviets reindustrialize and feel ready fro a rematch).

The Entente-Germany detente and the latter staying democratic ought not just to pave the way for a proto-EU, it should also revitalize the League of Nations, and allow it to weather the Japan, Italy, and USSR turning rogue. The interplay betwen the EL and the LoN ought to be interesting.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
In the East a suggestion could be to put East and West Prussia in Union with Poland as the State of Prussia, Lithuania could when also join (and be given Vilnius), and we could also create a Belarussian state, would it be be stable? Quite likely not, but if it succed it would remove much of the German cause for war and stregthen Poland against USSR.
 

General Zod

Banned
In the East a suggestion could be to put East and West Prussia in Union with Poland as the State of Prussia, Lithuania could when also join (and be given Vilnius), and we could also create a Belarussian state, would it be be stable? Quite likely not, but if it succed it would remove much of the German cause for war and stregthen Poland against USSR.

Critically important question, what kind of union between Poland and Prussia ? If it is full political union, and the Poles are allowed to mistreat even more Germans, it's a sure recipe for a future war between Germany and Poland, even if the former stays democratic it shall stoop to any trick in order to rearm and free its Prussian brethern. If it is a looser union, where the central government manages defense, foreign policy, and a customs union, but the German-majority Prussian state is allowed full political autonomy in all other matters, and Germany is allowed full freedom of circulation for persons and goods to Prussia, it might work.
 
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