A Different Stalingrad

b12ox

Banned
Hardly. Germans went for Caucasus because they needed the oil, not just to deny it to Soviets. And waiting for Soviets to show up makes no sense since everybody (including Gehlen) thought RA was on its hind legs anyway. So it made more sense to go after them and destroy them rather than just sit and wait for them to show up, which they wouldn't since they were on their hind legs.
I know very well they needed that oil. thats why they split the army to get their asap only to find the factories blown up. Had they made it to Baku they would have dind the same thing happened. They could not have attacked and destroyed the armies that came after them. And even if they did What it buys them ? Some time to wait for another attack. Had they taken Staligrad and established defensive lines they would have been better off in the long run. And forget about the oil for the time being cause they wouldnt have been getting it, just try to survive with all they had and sort out conventinal supplies. Beggars can't be choosers. It beats cancelling the south front altogether and dying at Stalingrad. They sorted their lines in the Center and it worked for them so why not here.
Again, hindsight. we know what state RA was at each point. Germans didn't. they thought that if they take Stalingrad and defeat Soviets (which they did time after time in 1942) RA would simply run out of troops. Under those circumstances using Romanians wasn't such a mistake since there would be no attack anyway and once Stalingrad was taken that would be it, head to Berlin for victory parade.
I am trying to give them the benefit of hindsight to see how far they can go.
 
I know very well they needed that oil. thats why they split the army to get their asap only to find the factories blown up. Had they made it to Baku they would have dind the same thing happened. They could not have attacked and destroyed the armies that came after them. And even if they did What it buys them ? Some time to wait for another attack. Had they taken Staligrad and established defensive lines they would have been better off in the long run. And forget about the oil for the time being cause they wouldnt have been getting it, just try to survive with all they had and sort out conventinal supplies. Beggars can't be choosers. It beats cancelling the south front altogether and dying at Stalingrad. They sorted their lines in the Center and it worked for them so why not here.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here..... That they should have concentrated on Caucasus and ignore Stalingrad? That's an option and original plan anyway. That they would succeed? I doubt it, the nature of the offensive ment they were creating long, exposed flanks, even worse than at Stalingrad.

I am trying to give them the benefit of hindsight to see how far they can go.

Not much further than OTL. They were stretched thin as they were and if you send more forces south it simply increases logistical issue to a point where forces could only be supplied partially (or only some of them). And as Germans found out, you take one strongly held pass and there is another one held just as strongly a few kilometres further.
 
The problem with that is that the German General Staff, of which Hitler was a part, already received reports before Case Blue that that even if Maikop was taken, it would already be sabotaged and unusable. The other production facilities were too deep into Soviet territory to even have their oil be extracable for German use. There was no infrastructure to ship it north via rail, as the Soviets were oriented to shipping it via the Caspian Sea. This mean that before the German offensive started in 1942, it was obvious that oil could never be captured from Soviet sources for use by Germany because there was no logistic infrastructure to ship it to Germany. It would take decades to build even without the pumps being sabotaged. Yet Hitler still went after it, once again ignoring reality.

But honestly, what else was there for Germany to do? Go after Moscow? Too strongly held. Take Leningrad? Does ef all for war effort. Sitting on defensive wasn't an option either, not with issue still unresolved.

And IIRC oilfields were sabotaged to such a degree they weren't completly repaired until mid 1950s
 

b12ox

Banned
The problem with that is that the German General Staff, of which Hitler was a part, already received reports before Case Blue that that even if Maikop was taken, it would already be sabotaged and unusable. The other production facilities were too deep into Soviet territory to even have their oil be extracable for German use. There was no infrastructure to ship it north via rail, as the Soviets were oriented to shipping it via the Caspian Sea. This mean that before the German offensive started in 1942, it was obvious that oil could never be captured from Soviet sources for use by Germany because there was no logistic infrastructure to ship it to Germany. It would take decades to build even without the pumps being sabotaged. Yet Hitler still went after it, once again ignoring reality.

They sent their people tech with the army to Maikop and the Caucasus to turn the oil in situ. When the factories were found to be up blown up they estimated half a year to put them to work. Perhaps we reading diffrent sources. Half a year was a disaster in OTL. Had they been able to stay there,it was worthwhile still
 

b12ox

Banned
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here..... That they should have concentrated on Caucasus and ignore Stalingrad? That's an option and original plan anyway. That they would succeed? I doubt it, the nature of the offensive ment they were creating long, exposed flanks, even worse than at Stalingrad.

no i said keep Stalingrad.

well, the poster here says the Soviets could still get their fuel through the Caspian Sea and up north, which means the Soviet could not have been stopped anytime soon, and the Germans would not benefit from the oil themsleves for a while so it makes Fall Blue weak. in that case they walked themselves to death for nothng
 

Deleted member 1487

But honestly, what else was there for Germany to do? Go after Moscow? Too strongly held. Take Leningrad? Does ef all for war effort. Sitting on defensive wasn't an option either, not with issue still unresolved.

And IIRC oilfields were sabotaged to such a degree they weren't completly repaired until mid 1950s

The goal should have been to set up on the Don a defensive line to hold the Soviets off and bomb Baku, Gronzy, Maikop, etc. and destroy the Soviet ability to fuel their tanks. Bomb the 11 power stations in the Moscow-Upper-Volga region and deprive the Soviet Union of 75% of its aero-engine production. Bomb the 3 rail bridges east of the Don that handle most of the Soviet North-South rail traffic.
There are plenty more targets the Luftwaffe identified here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Ai...9954782&sr=1-1&keywords=german+air+war+russia

It was time to plan for a long war and a strategic one that was within the capabilities of the Luftwaffe in 1942-43. The distances in the SU and the concentration of modern facilities resulting from later industrialization made the Soviets uniquely vulnerable to strategic bombing, even by Germany's medium bombers.
 
no i said keep Stalingrad.

well, the poster here says the Soviets could still get their fuel through the Caspian Sea and up north, which means the Soviet could not have been stopped anytime soon, and the Germans would not benefit from the oil themsleves for a while so it makes Fall Blue weak. in that case they walked themselves to death for nothng

But that makes no sense from german point. Why focus on taking a city that isn't that important or interdicting Volga if Soviets can work around that? It would be an offensive that would promise to solve nothing for Gerany while running all the risks of an offensive.
 

Deleted member 1487

They sent their people tech with the army to Maikop and the Caucasus to turn the oil in situ. When the factories were found to be up blown up they estimated half a year to put them to work. Perhaps we reading diffrent sources. Half a year was a disaster in OTL. Had they been able to stay there,it was worthwhile still

And Soviet partisans murdered the oil specialists soon thereafter in their sleep. That deprived the Germans of critical and limited numbers of specialists in the oil industry. Totally unnecessary if Hitler stopped at the Don and bombed Stalingrad and Baku into oblivion.
 

b12ox

Banned
But that makes no sense from german point. Why focus on taking a city that isn't that important or interdicting Volga if Soviets can work around that? It would be an offensive that would promise to solve nothing for Gerany while running all the risks of an offensive.

well, it was not worth loosing the war for it, that's for sure
 
kerch bridge

If I were Hitler my first priority would be to secure the Taman Peninsula, and then build a bridge across Kerch Strait. As long as the Germans had air superiority, they would have a secure railline to the Caucasus, with a much shorter defensive line. The Germans did build an arial tramway across the strait in 1943, and were able to keep a bridgehead for several months after the fall of the 6th army. If they had built that bridge in 1942, they could have gone straight to the oilfields.
 
The goal should have been to set up on the Don a defensive line to hold the Soviets off and bomb Baku, Gronzy, Maikop, etc. and destroy the Soviet ability to fuel their tanks. Bomb the 11 power stations in the Moscow-Upper-Volga region and deprive the Soviet Union of 75% of its aero-engine production. Bomb the 3 rail bridges east of the Don that handle most of the Soviet North-South rail traffic.
There are plenty more targets the Luftwaffe identified here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Ai...9954782&sr=1-1&keywords=german+air+war+russia

It was time to plan for a long war and a strategic one that was within the capabilities of the Luftwaffe in 1942-43. The distances in the SU and the concentration of modern facilities resulting from later industrialization made the Soviets uniquely vulnerable to strategic bombing, even by Germany's medium bombers.

Air war was mishandled as a result of faulty strategy. Though I doubt Germans could knock out SU by air war alone.
 

Deleted member 1487

Air war was mishandled as a result of faulty strategy. Though I doubt Germans could knock out SU by air war alone.

No, not knock out. That was impossible. Wear down and negotiate. Just waiting for Soviet production to reach the front and bomb it there is madness; its much better to shut it off at the source, the vulnerable resources like oil and the vulnerable power stations, which would shut down Soviet production at minimal investment of bombers.
 
Just because Germans said it happened doesn't mean it actually happened. They had to explain their failure, mice were handy excuse. German forces in city itself were heavily engaged so Paulus couldn't just take them and sent the west.


A rodent immobilized Panzer division (apparently when the order came to move to counter Operation Uranus) was one of a number of reasonsfor the encirclement and subsequent disaster. It is true that German forces in Stalingrad were heavily engaged and in fACT may have been about to launch a final attack at this point. It would be difficulrt and time consuming to pull a large force out of the battle and to redeploy it. What the Germans had to do in the early phase of Operation Uranus was to hold the Soviet pincer movement for at least a few days to give Paulus the time he needed to redeploy, Having a seriously degraded Panzer division (the only one on this sector apart from a Roumanian division) made any chance of this working atbest difficult and probably impossible.

After the encirclement the failure of the Luftwaffe to keep 6th Army supplied, the failure of Winter Storm and of course the collapase of the Italians and Roumanians doomed 6th Army. Subsequently there was a possibility of a Soviet breakthrough to the Black Sea and the possible destruction of a large portion of Army Group South that might have become an early version of the 1944 Destruction of Army Group Centre. A defeat on that scale would have decided the war two years earlier than it was actually decided even though Germany could have carried on the fight.
 

b12ox

Banned
well, it was not worth loosing the war for it, that's for sure
Then again, it may have been. In the meantime it became the center stage of the war, not just a waypoint. The war could last with the very possible stalemate and pretty much everything converged here. They could not leave it in russian hands. Hundreds of reasons.
 
A rodent immobilized Panzer division (apparently when the order came to move to counter Operation Uranus) was one of a number of reasonsfor the encirclement and subsequent disaster.

As I said, the mice issue is suspect. Glantz in his "Armageddon in stalingrad" doesn't ention it. Granted this book covers events up to 19.11., however he says division (it was 22nd, not 23rd, BTW, 23rd was in Caucasus) was ordered to move into Romanian area on 16.11. So when order came and division was being moved it would be noted and as such would be in this book. He does say that it was badly equiped and had 46 operational tanks, which was about same as panzer divisions slugging it in Stalingrad itself.

To recap: I think mice were simply pathetic German excuse for their poor performance and sorry state.

It is true that German forces in Stalingrad were heavily engaged and in fACT may have been about to launch a final attack at this point.

They were, one such push was planned for 20.11.

It would be difficulrt and time consuming to pull a large force out of the battle and to redeploy it. What the Germans had to do in the early phase of Operation Uranus was to hold the Soviet pincer movement for at least a few days to give Paulus the time he needed to redeploy, Having a seriously degraded Panzer division (the only one on this sector apart from a Roumanian division) made any chance of this working atbest difficult and probably impossible.

Except that German panzer divisions in Stalingrad itself were no better off. Glantz lists them as having 48 (14th), 50 (16th) and 46 (24th). Infantry and mechanised divisions were in even worse state. As I said, by late October whole capturing the city point becomes moot, Soviet armies did their job of holding and bleeding Germans.

4th Panzer Army was a bit better off by itself however divisions were constantly detached for 6th Army and they had to keep an eye on Soviet 64th Army. Being far away from actual Soviet breakthrough they couldn't redeploy in time either so their position isn't relevant for this anyway.

After the encirclement the failure of the Luftwaffe to keep 6th Army supplied, the failure of Winter Storm and of course the collapase of the Italians and Roumanians doomed 6th Army. Subsequently there was a possibility of a Soviet breakthrough to the Black Sea and the possible destruction of a large portion of Army Group South that might have become an early version of the 1944 Destruction of Army Group Centre. A defeat on that scale would have decided the war two years earlier than it was actually decided even though Germany could have carried on the fight.

No argument there.
 
The only way the Heer can take Stalingrad is in the initial period of contact. They have to secure the river bank side of the city. If they manage that they can reduce the forces inside the now isolated city.

It is somewhat questionable if actually taking the city, opposed to bypassing it and bombing the pougies out of it, was even necessary.

I believe that they attempted to do this IOTL, and briefly reached the river north of the city near Rynok in late August/early September, but couldn't advance further due to Soviet counterattacks and their own overextension.
 
I believe that they attempted to do this IOTL, and briefly reached the river north of the city near Rynok in late August/early September, but couldn't advance further due to Soviet counterattacks and their own overextension.

They reached Volga in the north. However 62nd army kept slipping back and evaded encirclement, partly because Paulus wasn't reacting quickly enough. Once they reached city itself things got hard but Germans kept trying. then it was a question of "since we did this so far doing a bit more sounds like a good idea" which turned into "we invested so much so far so if we stop now all that seems pointless". Far from only such event.
 
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