A different Market Garden

When Model decides on an area for the refitting of II SS Panzer Corps, he chooses an area near Amsterdam. Thus when the Brits land in Arnhem, they are NOT facing two SS Panzer Divisions.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Interesting. I would like to know as well. Though the planning and execution of MG was pretty bad, I still see it going down as a defeat. maybe not as bad this time.
 
If that's the only change, Market-Garden still fails. XXX Corps isn't going to get to Arnhem any faster; IISSPz Corps might beat them there from Amsterdam. The Son bridge will still be blown, the weather and communications problems will still deny reinforcements and supplies... and so on.
 
Market Garden is still a stupid idea

the two panzer divisions between them still had less than the strength of a single allied armored combat command

even if it gets over the bridges; their supply lines still suck and their flanks are in the air PLUS they are breaking out in the wrong place and vulnerable to a counterattack as the Germans assemble forces for wacht on rhine
 
Alt to Market Garden - Antwerp Approaches

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't the supply priority given to allow Market Garden could have been used to clear the German army from its position preventing Antwerp from being used and the entire Western Allied force getting all the supplies it needed?

As I understand it the allied armies were crippled by a lack of supply due to not having captured the ports along the north coast of France as the country was liberated. Logistics planning had been based on not having to move the supplies too far by truck because they would progressively move the main port of entry for supplies, reinforcements etc east and so driving the supplies from Cherbourg meant there was not enough tonnage available. Priority was given to Montgomery, who had Antwerp in his AO but chose to abandon his usual cautious, methodical approach and launch Market Garden instead.:eek:

So, what if Montgomery does someting more typical of him and choses to crush the nut with a steamroller, after all due care, planning and endless rehersal, and the allied armies end up getting all the supplies they need months earlier then they did in reality:confused:

Is this workable?

How much difference would it actually have made?
 
What was Patton plan? Would it had worked better?

If Patton's spearheads didn't run out of gasoline due to diversion of supplies to montgommery and hodges its possible he could have stayed on the German's heals and prevented them from reforming at Metz and points south and slowing him down (I rate his chances here at 50/50 his tanks had come a long way and even without the diversion of supplies his troops where exhausted and in desperate need of a refit/refuel/rest period of at least a few days

The ideal get into Germany in 1944 scenario (assuming a mega falaise opportunity is already passed) is for Patton to swing his army (without supplies being diverted for market garden) north into luxembourg and the ardennes into the 1st army's command area (whilst they are catching up)... there where no germans at all in this area and it allows Patton to bypass Metz and the Germans wouldn't know what hit them until Patton was at the German border
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't the supply priority given to allow Market Garden could have been used to clear the German army from its position preventing Antwerp from being used and the entire Western Allied force getting all the supplies it needed?

I don't think the timing quite works out; the Allies were already having supply problems and it would have taken some time to put Amsterdam into use as a port even if the Scheldt estuary was cleared promptly (it wasn't IOTL).

Best case: Monty pushes harder in the drive across France (out of character for him) and takes BOTH Amsterdam and the Scheldt estuary off the march (difficult), allowing the Germans little time to demolish the facilities. The Allies rapidly put the port into service (possible, though by no means guaranteed) while the Allied lead elements catch just a few days rest & refit; just enough time for them to get (mostly) back in shape but not enough time for the Germans to reorganize from the chaos of the retreat across France. The Allies resume the advance on a broad front, taking full advantage of their superior mobility. They push into Germany, finally halting for the winter along a line roughly Bremen-Frankfurt. The First Allied Airborne Army stays in England.

Taken together this is a very unlikely scenario. It relies on the Allies doing just about everything right after Falaise.
 
The big benefit is that British 1st Airborne is able to seize Arnhem bridge, control enough space of airborne re-supply, and are able to effectively communicate by radio.

Even though 30 Corps will still be delayed, I think they'll reach Arnhem in time to prevent the airborne troops from being wiped out and be able to cross the Rhine.

The problem is that the Allied thrust across the Rhine will still suffer from logistical difficulties of supply. Clearing the Scheldt Estuary was the greater priority.

On previous threads about a successful Market Garden, there tends to a be a debate on how successful the Allies across the Rhine given the supply issues. I think it's possible that the Allies can succeed in cutting off the Ruhr. Whether the war will be over by Christmas is debateable.

However, the big unknown is what the crossing will do to German morale. While Hitler will still want to go down fighting, I think a lot of officers and enlisted men will accept defeat and know the question is whether Germany is occupied by the Western Allies or the Soviet Union. The western front may just collapse. Or Hitler might still be able to secure enough control to keep fighting, in which case the Allies might end 1945 on the Elbe. Not sure what the winter fighting might consist of. The Allies might fight all through the winter.
 
From reading Cornelius Ryans A bridge to far i got the impression that the tankunits were scheduled for withdrawl back into the reich for refit within 1-2 days of MG starting
 
Monty pushes harder in the drive across France (out of character for him) and takes BOTH Amsterdam and the Scheldt estuary off the march (difficult), allowing the Germans little time to demolish the facilities.

...It relies on the Allies doing just about everything right after Falaise.
IMO, it doesn't take an especially great increase in push, or extraordinary luck, it just takes Monty not being his usual dimwit self.:rolleyes: (OK, that's pushing ASB territory.:p) If he realizes the Germans are going to demolish & fight, & realizes (as even II Corps' commander, Simmonds {sp?}, did) he needs to control Antwerp (& additionally he needs to clear the Scheldt for that to be worthwile), he can tell Crerar to bypass & seal off Channel ports the minute demolition begins (rather than clear them at a snail's pace,:eek: as OTL:mad:), & jump to Antwerp & the Scheldt. XXX Corps' lead elements were in Antwerp around 2 Sept '44 OTL, & Dutch Resistance was waiting to assist, but never got a request. If Crear got to the Scheldt on the bounce, with the Germans so disorganized, essentially in full flight, clearing it would have been dead easy, surely much easier than OTL October-November.:eek::eek:

So, cut even a couple of weeks off that (a month, with Dutch aid? more?), & you've denied the Germans the chance to demolish. It's then the OTL schedule to clear the booby traps (a month?), & Antwerp is open around the end of September, possibly earlier.

Huge deal? Maybe not. Enough to keep the Germans on the run? I think so. Enough to make Market-Garden unnecessary? Again, I think so. Enough to end the war in '44? Maybe... IMO, enough to make Wacht am Rhein improbable (or even stupider than OTL:eek:).
 
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