A different Leyte Gulf

Good as both Sakai and that fighter are, its still only one plane flown by a one eyed pilot. IIRC his being half blind almost cost him his life when at Iwo Jima due to poor vision he had flown up into formation with a small gaggle of Zeroes, only to discover it was a whole squadron of Hellcats!:eek: He had missed their stars-and-bars. They didn't miss his meatballs. Thank God for alto cumulus clouds!:(

Well as I said, they US may lose more planes. Not necessarily a lot, but he could get a few. And if he can maneuver right he might even get away.

BTW, thanks for the little history bit about Sakai. I had not heard about it before. Always nice to learn a new trivia.
 
Well as I said, they US may lose more planes. Not necessarily a lot, but he could get a few. And if he can maneuver right he might even get away.

BTW, thanks for the little history bit about Sakai. I had not heard about it before. Always nice to learn a new trivia.

He had found himself in a classic cartwheel attack with each Hellcat in turn making its run on him. Each time he pushed the limits of his Zero just enough to avoid destruction. He later said that all they would have had to do was station one fighter in a counter weave of the cartwheel to nail him. But they didn't. He remarked about how it was a good example of American pilots being much more able than the average Japanese fighter pilot by this time, but also all the American veterans who could even come close to his level of expertise and experience had long since been rotated home to serve as trainers.

Finally he got close enough to the alto cumulus cloud to risk entering, and apparently he wasn't followed. By the time that he could emerge from the cloud and recover from all the wind sheer his aircraft had been subjected to, he found he was less than ten feet over the Pacific!:eek: And when he got back to Iwo Jima? The troops on the ground had gotten a good look at his struggle in the air, and his ground crew told him to their rank astonishment that his Zero didn't have a single hole in it!:eek:

In his lifetime of combat, Sakai reported that he never faced an enemy of equal ability who had a plane equal to his Zero (in his opinion). Only three pilots did he ever acknowledge as having possibly matched his own skills, but they were all in weaker planes, and he bested them all.

The first, an Australian P-39 which he drove into a New Guinea mountain.

The second, an Australian Hudson (also over New Guinea) which he overmatched with 6 other Zeroes. But the Australian pilot of that Hudson flew so aggressively that he almost shot down some of Sakai's wingmen! The Hudson model he faced had tremendous forward firepower. But once they finally took out the mid-section gunner the Hudson was doomed.

The last was a US Navy F4F pilot (at Guadacanal) who was so good that in Sakai's opinion it was more a matter of him being the younger pilot that he simply wore down an obviously much older pilot, until he crippled the F4F. He was so impressed by the Wildcat pilot's performance that he drew up alongside the American, waved his wings, and pointed him towards the Guadacanal shore. Once there, he indicated by hand signals to the American to invert his crippled fighter (the pilot appeared to be wounded as well) to parachute out over the beaches controlled by the US 1st Marine Division.

Almost immediately after this event, Sakai launched an attack on a group of F4Fs, coming up behind and below them, to gain a tactical advantage, even leaving his two wingmen behind him. The F4Fs closed formation, meaning they hadn't seen him. As he closed to within a hundred yards, he saw that he was not attacking Grumman Wildcats, but rather attacking Grumman Avenger torpedo planes, an aircraft he had never seen before, but at a distance and from behind looked similar to Wildcats. In fact, the Avenger crews HAD seen him, and closed up for defense. Now he had sixteen 50 caliber machine guns all pointed at his one little unarmored plane. He had no choice but to charge right in. If he dived they would have blasted him and his cockpit to pieces, if he turned they would have ripped his plane to shreds.

It was then that he lost his eye.

How he managed to fly the hundreds of miles back to his base with one eye gone and the other oozing blood, we can never know... But it undoubtably saved his life. Not just then, but in keeping him out of combat until the closing months of the war.

Courtesy of "Samurai!", the memoirs of Saburo Sakai
 
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1039 October 24 1944

The American force had drawn off, largely on it's own terms and it was time to count the cost. The American seemed to have missed the second group, meaning the carrier had survived intact.

The fleet was split into two columns within two groups with the Yamato and Musashi following three of the the Myoko Class cruisers on the starboard side of group one. On the post side the Nagato and Shinano followed the two Takao class heavy cruisers and Ashigara.

Group two consisted of the Haruna following the two Tone Class heavy cruisers on the port side. On the starboard side Kongo followed the two Mogami class cruisers. Amagi was settled in the middle of both columns within Group 2.

Eight dive bombers had settled into an attack run on Shinano. Four near misses, all around the bow had cracked plates and caused minor leakage. A 500lb bomb had hit the roof of number 1 turret but been easily deflected by the armour. Another bomb had torn away the anchor chain and penetrated the near the bow where the armour was weakest, resulting in shipping 250 tons of water. It was a minor blow compared to the last.

The final hit, delivered by a flight of 3 torpedo bombers had been much more destructive.
One torpedo had hit port starboard amidships slightly abaft the bridge and caused a 6.5-degree list to port. The ship had also taken on board 3500 tons of water, to some extent due to inept damage control measures from what Kondo had known was a grossly inexperienced crew. After counter flooding, the list should be able to be reduced significantly. The last piece of news from Captain Ito is even worse.

The blast from the torpedo has jammed the battleships "shockproof" main armament director.

The fact that the Nagato had also taken a 500lb bomb hit he glossed over. The damage had not been serious.
 
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1048 24 October 1944

Saburo Sakai had made the landing back on deck. In truth, he had secretly had some question marks. Although qualified as a carrier pilot and initially trained to be so, all his subsequent service in the IJN had been land based.

The new plane was a delight to fly. It's rate of climb was so superior to the A6 and it was definitely the fastest airplane he had ever flown. Yet it lost nothing in maneuverability vis a vis previous fighters.

They had tried their best. Against great odds even for the good pilots he knew them to be. One could ask no more of any man he was sure. They had "downed" eight, probably nine enemy planes. Apparently the fleet's AA had shot down another four, although the much vaunted special anti aircraft had proven to be less than spectacular. He had accounted for at least three, probably four himself. Plus they had largely broken up the enemy torpedo bombers attack.

At cost, to be sure. Of the 4 land based picket fighters on station and the 13 launched from the carrier, four had returned including his own craft. One of those was so badly damaged it would never take off again. Yet he had returned. Somehow whilst so many others had littered the fields of China before and seas of the Pacific over the last 3 years, he always returned. One day it may be his turn. In the meantime, it was a useful skill to have, he thought.
 
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sharlin

Banned
Sounds like the Shinano is going to be this TL's Musashi to drown under an avalanche of US aircraft.
 
He had found himself in a classic cartwheel attack with each Hellcat in turn making its run on him. Each time he pushed the limits of his Zero just enough to avoid destruction. He later said that all they would have had to do was station one fighter in a counter weave of the cartwheel to nail him. But they didn't. He remarked about how it was a good example of American pilots being much more able than the average Japanese fighter pilot by this time, but also all the American veterans who could even come close to his level of expertise and experience had long since been rotated home to serve as trainers.

Finally he got close enough to the alto cumulus cloud to risk entering, and apparently he wasn't followed. By the time that he could emerge from the cloud and recover from all the wind sheer his aircraft had been subjected to, he found he was less than ten feet over the Pacific!:eek: And when he got back to Iwo Jima? The troops on the ground had gotten a good look at his struggle in the air, and his ground crew told him to their rank astonishment that his Zero didn't have a single hole in it!:eek:

In his lifetime of combat, Sakai reported that he never faced an enemy of equal ability who had a plane equal to his Zero (in his opinion). Only three pilots did he ever acknowledge as having possibly matched his own skills, but they were all in weaker planes, and he bested them all.

The first, an Australian P-39 which he drove into a New Guinea mountain.

The second, an Australian Hudson (also over New Guinea) which he overmatched with 6 other Zeroes. But the Australian pilot of that Hudson flew so aggressively that he almost shot down some of Sakai's wingmen! The Hudson model he faced had tremendous forward firepower. But once they finally took out the mid-section gunner the Hudson was doomed.

The last was a US Navy F4F pilot (at Guadacanal) who was so good that in Sakai's opinion it was more a matter of him being the younger pilot that he simply wore down an obviously much older pilot, until he crippled the F4F. He was so impressed by the Wildcat pilot's performance that he drew up alongside the American, waved his wings, and pointed him towards the Guadacanal shore. Once there, he indicated by hand signals to the American to invert his crippled fighter (the pilot appeared to be wounded as well) to parachute out over the beaches controlled by the US 1st Marine Division.

Almost immediately after this event, Sakai launched an attack on a group of F4Fs, coming up behind and below them, to gain a tactical advantage, even leaving his two wingmen behind him. The F4Fs closed formation, meaning they hadn't seen him. As he closed to within a hundred yards, he saw that he was not attacking Grumman Wildcats, but rather attacking Grumman Avenger torpedo planes, an aircraft he had never seen before, but at a distance and from behind looked similar to Wildcats. In fact, the Avenger crews HAD seen him, and closed up for defense. Now he had sixteen 50 caliber machine guns all pointed at his one little unarmored plane. He had no choice but to charge right in. If he dived they would have blasted him and his cockpit to pieces, if he turned they would have ripped his plane to shreds.

It was then that he lost his eye.

How he managed to fly the hundreds of miles back to his base with one eye gone and the other oozing blood, we can never know... But it undoubtably saved his life. Not just then, but in keeping him out of combat until the closing months of the war.

Courtesy of "Samurai!", the memoirs of Saburo Sakai

If i had seen such a movie made by Hollywood i would have thought they overdid it as usually. Also the war in the sky during ww2 was fought with more honor and gentlemanship on both sides. I recall from "I flew for Hitler" that the Luftwaffe pilot in that book described how he escorted a B17 when he was out of bullets and they were badly damaged.
 
1039 October 24 1944

The American force had drawn off, largely on it's own terms and it was time to count the cost. The American seemed to have missed the second group, meaning the carrier had survived intact.

The fleet was split into two columns within two groups with the Yamato and Musashi following three of the the Myoko Class cruisers on the starboard side of group one. On the post side the Nagato and Shinano followed the two Takao class heavy cruisers and Ashigara.

Group two consisted of the Haruna following the two Tone Class heavy cruisers on the port side. On the starboard side Kongo followed the two Mogami class cruisers. Amagi was settled in the middle of both columns within Group 2.

Eight dive bombers had settled into an attack run on Shinano. Four near misses, all around the bow had cracked plates and caused minor leakage. A 500lb bomb had hit the roof of number 1 turret but been easily deflected by the armour. Another bomb had torn away the anchor chain and penetrated the near the bow where the armour was weakest, resulting in shipping 250 tons of water. It was a minor blow compared to the last.

The final hit, delivered by a flight of 3 torpedo bombers had been much more destructive.
One torpedo had hit port starboard amidships slightly abaft the bridge and caused a 6.5-degree list to port. The ship had also taken on board 3500 tons of water, to some extent due to inept damage control measures from what Kondo had known was a grossly inexperienced crew. After counter flooding, the list should be able to be reduced significantly. The last piece of news from Captain Ito is even worse.

The blast from the torpedo has jammed the battleships "shockproof" main armament director.

The fact that the Nagato had also taken a 500lb bomb hit he glossed over. The damage had not been serious.

PLEASE have Yamato reach gunrange of the US battleship fleet, PLEASE. I beg you, i am on my knees begging to see such a fight. And maek it so that the carrier airplanes are massing overhead allowing the BBs to have their day before the airplanes show whos the boss. And make it close to the shore so that ground troops from both sides stare out into the water in awe(and Macarthur stands with a camera). The naval battle to drawf all other naval battles in a epic showdown
 
PLEASE have Yamato reach gunrange of the US battleship fleet, PLEASE. I beg you, i am on my knees begging to see such a fight. And maek it so that the carrier airplanes are massing overhead allowing the BBs to have their day before the airplanes show whos the boss. And make it close to the shore so that ground troops from both sides stare out into the water in awe(and Macarthur stands with a camera). The naval battle to drawf all other naval battles in a epic showdown

In fact, IOTL they HAD such an opportunity at Okinawa. But the orders were clear: Leave them to the carriers. At worst, you are only risking a few dozen aircraft crews that way. But if a single 18.1" shell penetrates one battleship's magazine, you lose thousands in an instant. Any admiral who orders a battle fleet to "go get 'em" over using his carriers is throwing his career overboard. Even Bull Halsey would have had to go, and he himself OTL planned on using Task Force 34 only to polish off Ozawa's cripples, not to fight a Pacific Jutland.

From what I can read, it appears that the OP is setting up an even bloodier (for Japan) Battle of Surigao Strait, while Samar is going to be able to employ the 80+ destroyers and destroyer escorts (protecting the invasion beaches) that countless Leyte Gulf ATL's and speculations seem to have ignored or forgotten.

The worst example I can think of regarding this is the short story "There Are Such Things As Miracles" by Christopher J. Anderson, published in the collection "Rising Sun Victorious", edited by Peter G. Tsouras (the less said about Tsouras the better). Anderson wrote this story as if the invasion transports didn't have so much as a single PT boat for protection.:rolleyes: The three Taffy Groups were for ASW protection and tactical support of the troops, not defending the transports from surface attack, and the Taffy's few destroyers and destroyer escorts were for the protection of the CVE's.

If the Central Force under Kurita DID make it all the way to the invasion area, they'd face the same inglorious end that the Southern Force did: OTL most of the Southern Force fell to attacking PT boat and destroyer squadrons before the remnants fell before Ohlendorf's old battleships.
 
In fact, IOTL they HAD such an opportunity at Okinawa. But the orders were clear: Leave them to the carriers. At worst, you are only risking a few dozen aircraft crews that way. But if a single 18.1" shell penetrates one battleship's magazine, you lose thousands in an instant. Any admiral who orders a battle fleet to "go get 'em" over using his carriers is throwing his career overboard. Even Bull Halsey would have had to go, and he himself OTL planned on using Task Force 34 only to polish off Ozawa's cripples, not to fight a Pacific Jutland.

From what I can read, it appears that the OP is setting up an even bloodier (for Japan) Battle of Surigao Strait, while Samar is going to be able to employ the 80+ destroyers and destroyer escorts (protecting the invasion beaches) that countless Leyte Gulf ATL's and speculations seem to have ignored or forgotten.

The worst example I can think of regarding this is the short story "There Are Such Things As Miracles" by Christopher J. Anderson, published in the collection "Rising Sun Victorious", edited by Peter G. Tsouras (the less said about Tsouras the better). Anderson wrote this story as if the invasion transports didn't have so much as a single PT boat for protection.:rolleyes: The three Taffy Groups were for ASW protection and tactical support of the troops, not defending the transports from surface attack, and the Taffy's few destroyers and destroyer escorts were for the protection of the CVE's.

If the Central Force under Kurita DID make it all the way to the invasion area, they'd face the same inglorious end that the Southern Force did: OTL most of the Southern Force fell to attacking PT boat and destroyer squadrons before the remnants fell before Ohlendorf's old battleships.

I think i wrote a scenario in a thread about such a battle. I would also love to watch 50+ destroyers charging Yamato and friends, guns blazing and using torpedoes

And i have read Rising sun victorious and found it ASB in some scenarios
 
Just catching up. It does look like Shinano may get the Musashi treatment from OTL. I will wonder if the hit on Nagato will be OTL to effect on her turrent. Losses on the US aircraft a little more than our time but they are whittling down the IJN and their levels of aircraft. There can not be too many operational planes atbthe Japanese airfields. Other than the kamikazes. Thosevwill be drawing their blood soon enough I fear.

As always I am appreciating your storyand updates. Thanks.:)
 
I think i wrote a scenario in a thread about such a battle. I would also love to watch 50+ destroyers charging Yamato and friends, guns blazing and using torpedoes

And i have read Rising sun victorious and found it ASB in some scenarios

I have not readvthat story and your review adds to giving me pause.
 
PLEASE have Yamato reach gunrange of the US battleship fleet, PLEASE. I beg you, i am on my knees begging to see such a fight. And maek it so that the carrier airplanes are massing overhead allowing the BBs to have their day before the airplanes show whos the boss. And make it close to the shore so that ground troops from both sides stare out into the water in awe(and Macarthur stands with a camera). The naval battle to drawf all other naval battles in a epic showdown


Perhaps I could have Mac killed by a stray 18.1" shell? I know that would please CalBear.
 
From what I can read, it appears that the OP is setting up an even bloodier (for Japan) Battle of Surigao Strait, while Samar is going to be able to employ the 80+ destroyers and destroyer escorts (protecting the invasion beaches) that countless Leyte Gulf ATL's and speculations seem to have ignored or forgotten.

Buuurrnnn...

CalBear has referenced this before. His metaphor was the Yamato and friends vs. those is like a bear vs. a pack of wolves.

And thanks to torpedoes, a destroyer can kill a MUCH bigger ship.
 
1045 24 October 1944

Rear Admiral Gerald Bogan smiled. TG 38.2 had launched it's second strike at the enemy. It was still calm seas from the point of view of enemy contact. No Japanese planes had been sighted since an early morning "snooper" at about 7am.

His crews had again proven themselves. 16 Hellcats, 10 Helldivers and 12 Avengers had launched in only an hour and a half after the dispatch of the first strike. He wondered how they had gone against the large Jap fleet



 
1056 24 October 1944

General Tominaga read the report of the attack on the Yankee aircraft carriers off Samar with great concern. One aircraft carrier sunk and a cruiser probably sunk. It was something that he could point to when his esteemed colleagues in the Navy asked what he had done in response to their pleas for assistance.

4th Air Army had suffered a grievous blow. Of 143 planes dispatched in the attack only 75 had returned, some of those badly "shot up". With no further reinforcements certain what was left would have to be conserved for the ground battle that would be fought in the coming months.

The Army's honour was intact. From here on in, the navy would have to make do.
 
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1057 24 October 1944

Rear Admiral Ralph Davison was pleased to have the first strike off. 12 Hellcats, 12 Helldivers and 9 Avengers had been sent after the Southern Force, mainly involving the San Jacinto's and Enterprise's air groups.

He could now concentrate on preparing a major strike on the force that had transited the Mindoro Strait.

It had been a peaceful morning. Hopefully it would remain so, at least for the US forces, he thought with a grin.

 
Things continue to heat up. Most of the IJA's planes used up and out if action for now. Not sure if the remaining planes might be canabilized to get a few more into the fight. USN planes going after the Southern Force where they might do some more damage.
 
Buuurrnnn...

CalBear has referenced this before. His metaphor was the Yamato and friends vs. those is like a bear vs. a pack of wolves.

And thanks to torpedoes, a destroyer can kill a MUCH bigger ship.

And unlike in many earlier battles, the US destroyer and destroyer escort crews are now fully trained and battle experienced, with reliably working torpedoes that have finally gotten all their bugs completely ironed out.
 
Ironically what taught me that a small ship with torpedoes can destroy a ship that ludicrously outmasses and outguns it is science fiction, the Destroyermen series.

In which the tin-can destroyer takes on the lost Japanese battlecruiser that is depicted as an absolute terrifying monstrosity earlier in the series and kills it with torpedoes.
 
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