I have heard the same thing. Part of the troble seems to been poorly trained crews and less than ideal fire control.
A different Leyte Gulf
- Thread starter johnboy
- Start date
I have heard the same thing. Part of the troble seems to been poorly trained crews and less than ideal fire control.
sharlin
Banned
Well that and using low angle VERY heavy caliber guns as a long range AA weapon is like trying to swat a hyperactive fly with a 42lb sledge hammer. 18 inch guns don't have the fire control systems for the role as you rightly said, it really was a weapon of desperation and highlighted how bad the IJN's AA was.
usertron2020
Donor
Really? How many bullets is that per aircraft for his aircraft's ammo supply?
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sharlin
Banned
Really? How many bullets is that per aircraft for his aircraft's ammo supply?
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Well IJA/IJN aircraft were flying bombs due to their complete disregard for protective measures, I suppose its possible with an insane degree of luck.
Really? How many bullets is that per aircraft for his aircraft's ammo supply?
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Actually McCampbell was credited with 9 kills OTL and landed with ammo still on board. With 400 rounds per gun on board, it does come down to 40 rounds per kill. Not a lot I know but he was an exceptional pilot, scoring 34 kills in only one tour, all from June to December 1944 only. It seems likely he would have outscored Bong if he had had a second combat tour
I had been surprised by the lack of a Leyte scenario, considering that it was the largest and last great naval battle of all time. And also considering the number of excellent naval historians that "patrol" these boards.
usertron2020
Donor
I am afraid it is just dessert.
What could it be?The Shiden is already operational, and only as good as a Hellcat 1:1
The Shinden did not even become a prototype until the spring of 1945, and required a master pilot (as you have indicated here). Though it was the only thing they had that could outfly anything short of a P-51D, which it could match.
Neither are carrier aircraft, however. If one of these planes could take off of a carrier under even ideal circumstances, in terms of coming home its Formosa (or the Philippines) or Bust.
Speaking of "Bust", if the Japanese Navy has been given the resources to complete so many warships so much earlier (if at all) than OTL, with all that extra steel and petrol consumed, I would have to think that they are looking at an economic collapse happening somewhat sooner than the Japanese themselves predicted (October 1st, 1945).
The Shiden is already operational, and only as good as a Hellcat 1:1
The Shinden did not even become a prototype until the spring of 1945, and required a master pilot (as you have indicated here). Though it was the only thing they had that could outfly anything short of a P-51D, which it could match.
Neither are carrier aircraft, however. If one of these planes could take off of a carrier under even ideal circumstances, in terms of coming home its Formosa (or the Philippines) or Bust.
Speaking of "Bust", if the Japanese Navy has been given the resources to complete so many warships so much earlier (if at all) than OTL, with all that extra steel and petrol consumed, I would have to think that they are looking at an economic collapse happening somewhat sooner than the Japanese themselves predicted (October 1st, 1945).
Yes, the Japanese economy is on the way to a collapse for sure. Manufacturing capacity declined significantly in 2nd qtr 1945 anyway due to the affects of strikes on the home islands.
I deliberately did not want this scenario to deviate markedly from the OTL in terms of unrealistic amounts of new ships being constructed. That being the case, the following is assumed:
Shinano is not converted to a carrier. This allows a completion time to be shaved by 2 months so she is available for this
Ibuki likewise is not converted, allowing a completion time within the time frame
With Hyuga and Ise not converted at Sasebo and Kure respectively, the resources wasted on this project were put into finishing CL Sakawa 2 months earlier in time for this op and building 2 extra Atkizuke class DD at Kure and bringing forward the completion of 2 others at Sasebo.
All should have been possible.
I am afraid it is just dessert.
Oh ok. Thought you might be alluding to more there.
Who needs fire control? Surely it's all about the size of the bang?? I am sure that someone told me somewhere that size is all important...
0936 24 October 1944
It had been an interesting morning for TG 38.3, thought Sherman. A second wave of approximately fifty attackers had again been driven off. With a larger CAP aloft the second wave had again been very harshly dealt with. Clearly the standard of pilot available to the Japanese had reached a fairly low level. With 22 Hellcats aloft, another 34 kills had been claimed, with the ship's AA fire claiming another 12. It was thought that only about 5-10 enemy planes had survived contact. A very pleasing result with nothing else on radar and the fleet preparing to recover most of the CAP. So far they had come through two large raids almost completely unscathed, losing only one man killed from the first raid and two Hellcats, one from each raid. Perhaps they could now prepare Halsey's strike.
Suddenly the AA fire that had died out 5 or 6 minutes ago broke out yet again. Breaking clear of the cloud cover were two "Judy" dive bombers. Somehow they seemed to have been missed by the Hellcats and were probably stragglers from the previous raid. As he watched with morbid fascination they released their bombs on the Princeton. A geyser of water flew up near the stern as the carrier maneuvered at speed. It was quickly followed by a fireball from the flight deck area.
They had not emerged unscathed after all..
It had been an interesting morning for TG 38.3, thought Sherman. A second wave of approximately fifty attackers had again been driven off. With a larger CAP aloft the second wave had again been very harshly dealt with. Clearly the standard of pilot available to the Japanese had reached a fairly low level. With 22 Hellcats aloft, another 34 kills had been claimed, with the ship's AA fire claiming another 12. It was thought that only about 5-10 enemy planes had survived contact. A very pleasing result with nothing else on radar and the fleet preparing to recover most of the CAP. So far they had come through two large raids almost completely unscathed, losing only one man killed from the first raid and two Hellcats, one from each raid. Perhaps they could now prepare Halsey's strike.
Suddenly the AA fire that had died out 5 or 6 minutes ago broke out yet again. Breaking clear of the cloud cover were two "Judy" dive bombers. Somehow they seemed to have been missed by the Hellcats and were probably stragglers from the previous raid. As he watched with morbid fascination they released their bombs on the Princeton. A geyser of water flew up near the stern as the carrier maneuvered at speed. It was quickly followed by a fireball from the flight deck area.
They had not emerged unscathed after all..
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0951 24 October 1944
Clifton Sprague's "Taffy 3" had come through their first test well. As the closest Carrier Group to the Japanese held airfields it seemed logical that any strikes would have been directed at them and so it had proven.
With a strong CAP aloft of 24 Wildcats he has been able to direct these to intercept before the Japanese had reached his ships, whilst launching more fighters for direct defense overhead.
They were a disorganised and disparate Jap force that had attacked over the last 50 minutes or so. Mainly older models such as Lilys(a large group of which had turned right at the end completely unescorted) and Sallys.
Although approximately 130 or more planes had shown up over the last hour, not more than 20-30 had made it through to the carriers, most being downed or driven off well short.
He imagined that the Japanese losses were heavy indeed. His own pilots claimed upwards of 60 planes and AA fire had ditched at least another 6 or so.
Whilst none of his ships had been directly hit, the CVE White Plains had taken a near miss near the stern that had buckled some plates and slightly bent the screws on the port side, causing her to ship some water and reducing her speed from 19 to 17.5 knots(and that at a level of high vibration), caused by a stick of bombs from one of the Sallys that had broken through the fighter screen. The offending plane had been shot down almost immediately after by AA fire. Two Wildcats had also been lost in combat plus another had to ditch near the carrier due to damage.
It seemed a small price to pay.
Clifton Sprague's "Taffy 3" had come through their first test well. As the closest Carrier Group to the Japanese held airfields it seemed logical that any strikes would have been directed at them and so it had proven.
With a strong CAP aloft of 24 Wildcats he has been able to direct these to intercept before the Japanese had reached his ships, whilst launching more fighters for direct defense overhead.
They were a disorganised and disparate Jap force that had attacked over the last 50 minutes or so. Mainly older models such as Lilys(a large group of which had turned right at the end completely unescorted) and Sallys.
Although approximately 130 or more planes had shown up over the last hour, not more than 20-30 had made it through to the carriers, most being downed or driven off well short.
He imagined that the Japanese losses were heavy indeed. His own pilots claimed upwards of 60 planes and AA fire had ditched at least another 6 or so.
Whilst none of his ships had been directly hit, the CVE White Plains had taken a near miss near the stern that had buckled some plates and slightly bent the screws on the port side, causing her to ship some water and reducing her speed from 19 to 17.5 knots(and that at a level of high vibration), caused by a stick of bombs from one of the Sallys that had broken through the fighter screen. The offending plane had been shot down almost immediately after by AA fire. Two Wildcats had also been lost in combat plus another had to ditch near the carrier due to damage.
It seemed a small price to pay.
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1018 24 October 1944
It had been a difficult morning and it was not getting any better. It was hard not groan out load. Rear Admiral Sherman let out a curse under his own breath after turning away from his staff.
Preparations were finally fully under way for a strike from TG 38.3, ships had been detailed to assist the Princeton, still burning quite fiercely. Captain Buracker had instituted Salvage Control Phase 2 and the crew was fighting the blaze energetically with help from the cruiser Birmingham which had drawn alongside. The Captain was confident but the blast had ignited petrol in the hanger deck and the fire was still burning hot and semi uncontrolled.
The appearance of yet another land based raid was as unexpected as it was unwelcome. CAP was not fully back in place and currently only 6 Hellcats were aloft. At this rate they would never get a goddammed strike off! He would have to launch the Hellcats detailed as escort for the strike and strike the Avenger and Helldivers back below.
Despite inflicting impressive losses on the enemy, in other respects, things were not going according to plan. "No plan survives contact with the enemy you fool" a contradictory voice said in his head. It was an old adage, but quite appropriate in the circumstances.
It had been a difficult morning and it was not getting any better. It was hard not groan out load. Rear Admiral Sherman let out a curse under his own breath after turning away from his staff.
Preparations were finally fully under way for a strike from TG 38.3, ships had been detailed to assist the Princeton, still burning quite fiercely. Captain Buracker had instituted Salvage Control Phase 2 and the crew was fighting the blaze energetically with help from the cruiser Birmingham which had drawn alongside. The Captain was confident but the blast had ignited petrol in the hanger deck and the fire was still burning hot and semi uncontrolled.
The appearance of yet another land based raid was as unexpected as it was unwelcome. CAP was not fully back in place and currently only 6 Hellcats were aloft. At this rate they would never get a goddammed strike off! He would have to launch the Hellcats detailed as escort for the strike and strike the Avenger and Helldivers back below.
Despite inflicting impressive losses on the enemy, in other respects, things were not going according to plan. "No plan survives contact with the enemy you fool" a contradictory voice said in his head. It was an old adage, but quite appropriate in the circumstances.
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Damn, the Princeton does not get a break at all ITTL. Guess she will go down burning as OTL. That the Japanese fighters have done their job to tie up the USN carriers and prevent strikes against the IJN, though with decimating losses. I will wonder if the damage to the White Plains may also come into play later when the navel battles start up. Might see more losses to Taffey III.
1026 24 October 1944
Kondo watched the aerial battles overhead as the conflicting airplanes formed their own deadly dance. This first American strike had finally arrived. A mixed formation of dive and torpedo bombers heavily escorted. The 4 plane CAP provided by the 1st Air Fleet and the 6 A6M's from Amagi had moved off to meet the challenge. He was hopeful the Amagi's fighters, even if outnumbered would give a good account of themselves. These men, at least, were fully trained pilots.
Clearly they had been overwhelmed as now the last line of a second batch of 6 A6M's and the lonely A7M were now in combat. The test pilot Saburo Sakai had better be as good as rumoured. Jiro Horikoshi from Mitsubishi had certainly pulled enough strings to get both Sakai and the plane on board before Yammamori's command had sailed from the home islands.
He debated what to do with the 15 strike aircraft still on board, assuming the carrier survived this action. It would surely be the Americans number one target. Fly them off in a small strike of his own or fly them to land bases. Keeping them on board now surely equated to certain destruction. As the AA crews crouched behind their mounts, he feared for the fleet as a whole.
Kondo watched the aerial battles overhead as the conflicting airplanes formed their own deadly dance. This first American strike had finally arrived. A mixed formation of dive and torpedo bombers heavily escorted. The 4 plane CAP provided by the 1st Air Fleet and the 6 A6M's from Amagi had moved off to meet the challenge. He was hopeful the Amagi's fighters, even if outnumbered would give a good account of themselves. These men, at least, were fully trained pilots.
Clearly they had been overwhelmed as now the last line of a second batch of 6 A6M's and the lonely A7M were now in combat. The test pilot Saburo Sakai had better be as good as rumoured. Jiro Horikoshi from Mitsubishi had certainly pulled enough strings to get both Sakai and the plane on board before Yammamori's command had sailed from the home islands.
He debated what to do with the 15 strike aircraft still on board, assuming the carrier survived this action. It would surely be the Americans number one target. Fly them off in a small strike of his own or fly them to land bases. Keeping them on board now surely equated to certain destruction. As the AA crews crouched behind their mounts, he feared for the fleet as a whole.
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Well with those two pilots to help with CAP. the US may lose more planes. I for one would have had any IJN strike aircraft off my flight decks pronto. At least let them have a chance rather than just sitting there. Add to it the extra fire danger from keeping their bombs and torpedoes on-board.
usertron2020
Donor
Good as both Sakai and that fighter are, its still only one plane flown by a one eyed pilot. IIRC his being half blind almost cost him his life when at Iwo Jima due to poor vision he had flown up into formation with a small gaggle of Zeroes, only to discover it was a whole squadron of Hellcats! He had missed their stars-and-bars. They didn't miss his meatballs. Thank God for alto cumulus clouds!
He had missed their stars-and-bars. They didn't miss his meatballs. Thank God for alto cumulus clouds!