A different kind of wank thread; small arms that should never have seen service

The Sten gun was almost an improvised weapon. The Brits used it to replace the Lee-Enfield rifles left in Dunkirk.

Not true. The Sten was developed because the British desperatly needed a sub-machine gun. The other options out there had their own difficulties, the Thompson was expensive and supply from the USA was limited and slow, the Lanchester was also slow to produce due to its high quality.

The Sten is more or less a stripped down version of the Lanchester, designed to be manufactured very quickly and cheaply and therefore would be available in large numbers should an invasion happen.

It was never intended to replace the Lee Enfield, not even in the short term. While many weapons were lost at Dunkirk the British had large stores of older versions which were available for issue until replacements could be obtained.

As for its reliability, it wasnt really any worse than many other sub-machine guns of the time. Had it been as bad as some people are making out then there is no way that over 4 million of them would have been issued in the UK alone! And thats not counting the other countries that manufactured their own.
 
As for accidental discharge nothing beats the Remington 700 AKA M-24 & M-40, pull the trigger with the safety on and it goes off when the safety is taken off. Also if the bolt gets closed with a broken firing pin you could end up having to send someone looking for your thumb.:eek:

Ooh, that could be a nasty one- take the safety off to shoot and a round goes who knows where (hopefully into the ground a couple feet in front of the user.) I have a 1942-vintage Kar. 98k with a similar problem- checking the function on everything before cleaning & lubing it, and when I disengaged the safety to open the bolt after checking the safety, click...:eek: Needless to say, it's staying in the back of the safe until I get around to having it fixed, as I'm not taking any chances on that type of accident (or more accurately, since I now know about the problem, a negligent discharge.)

The M-16 fires only in 3 round bursts so as not to wast ammo. Are you starting to get the picture.

Not entirely accurate- the burst feature was introduced on the M16A1, IIRC; the original M16 used in Vietnam did have full auto capability, but that was eliminated in subsequent versions because it apparently made it more prone to jamming, and it was found to cause troops to waste ammo.

The 6.5 x 55 SE is one of the most underrated cartridges. Great for high power target shooting.

A few years ago, a gun magazine did a special on the Mauser, collecting a variety of articles on them in a single issue, and there were a couple articles on Swedish Mausers, one a CG-63 target rifle built from a WW1-vintage m/96 action and the other a m/38 short rifle in military configuration, tested both with the original iron sights and a scope mounted on an adaptor to use the original rear sight base, and both rifles, once cleaned proved to be very accurate, particularly with handloads, but the author of those articles thought had quite a bit of recoil, and that it was 'light' compared to say a hot .30-06 load.
 
Not entirely accurate- the burst feature was introduced on the M16A1, IIRC; the original M16 used in Vietnam did have full auto capability, but that was eliminated in subsequent versions because it apparently made it more prone to jamming, and it was found to cause troops to waste ammo.

M16A2, but only the version used by the USArmy. The USMC retained the full auto capability IIRC.
 
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Sten gun - literally.

oopsie, try reading page one of the thread.

...My actual nomination for Small arm that shouldn't have seen service was the Sten Mk1.
Yes, very simple, easy to make etc, but horribly tempremental and equally prone to jam or ND if you looked at it wrong...

Anyhoo, yes, Sten = dodgy. The Sterling wasn't a bad follow on though.
 
Reising Gun - The clown who ordered 100,000 of the poorly made, jam prone pieces of crap should have been forced to use one on Guadalcanal.

Chauchat Light Machine Gun - We need a weapon to use in the mud filled tenches of the Western Front of WW I. Lets use a half moon magazine design for the bottom of the weapon with a OPEN side slot so mud, splinters and other muck can get into the action easier. The guy who designed this needed to be shot with a Lewis gun, after which the French Army could buy it instead.

I am fairly sure the Chauchat LMG only had the half moon clip when chambered in the french service round. I've seen photos of it with a standard looking box magazine when chambered in 30-06. Of course it didn't work in that chambering either.
 
M16A2, but only the version used by the USArmy. The USMC retained the full auto capability IIRC.

Really? I've never seen a full auto M16A2 in 18 years in the US Marines. They're all 3 round burst. Of course we don't use that rifle anymore (Most combat units switched to M16A4 in 2003 or 2004)
 
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Really? I've never seen a full auto M16A2 in 18 years in the US Marines. They're all 3 round burst. Of course we don't use that rifle anymore (Most combat units witched to M16A4 in 2003 or 2004)

Did some checking on a couple gun sites, and the M16A2 & A4 have burst mode, but there is a M16A3, used by the Navy for some security and Seabee units, as well as by some special-ops units, which is essentially a M16A2 fitted with a modified M16A1 trigger group, so the weapon's capable of full-auto fire.

There is some confusion over there being alternate versions of the A2 or A4 because 'A3' designations have been used by Colt & other manufacturers for commercial AR-15 type rifles or failed contract bids.

ETA: IIRC, there's a full-auto M16A4 modeled in some computer games, such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, but I'm not sure where the programmers got that from.
 
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Unfortunately again (the US had two years to observe modern ww2 warfare) they failed to realize what the Russians figured out in Finland and Spain and the Germans figured out later... ww2 infantry combat was generally below 75 yard, theres no point in having a rifle that is accurate to 1000 yards if all of your engagements are going to be at 1/10th that range

having to carry that, plus ammo for long distances on foot (like as a marine or paratrooper is a pain in the ass)

Huh? Have you compared the weights?

M1 Garand - 4.32 kg
StG 44 - 5.22 kg
Ak-47 - 4.3 kg


If this Russian dude is correct the early assault rifles (StG 44 and Ak-47) were the same or heavier than the standard US infantry rifle. The ammo is lighter per round sure but after you add in the extra weight of the steel mags its really heavier overall. Now the EM-2 would have been much lighter than either the AK-47 or the M1, but we just can't know if it would have really worked in combat because it got axed too soon.
 
Did some checking on a couple gun sites, and the M16A2 & A4 have burst mode, but there is a M16A3, used by the Navy for some security and Seabee units, as well as by some special-ops units, which is essentially a M16A2 fitted with a modified M16A1 trigger group, so the weapon's capable of full-auto fire.

There is some confusion over there being alternate versions of the A2 or A4 because 'A3' designations have been used by Colt & other manufacturers for commercial AR-15 type rifles or failed contract bids.

I've never seen a USN M16A3. But I have seen old M16A1 (full auto) lowers with new M16A2 uppers in the hands of USN SeaBees more than once. The rest of USN units I seen on the ground were armed with M4's or M16A2 they got from the Army or Marines. Hell I served on a USN ship in the late 90's that still had 1911's and M14 in it arms lockers
 
ETA: IIRC, there's a full-auto M16A4 modeled in some computer games, such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, but I'm not sure where the programmers got that from.

It's a good rule of thump to discount 99.9999% of military things found in video games. ;)



 
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the Sten gun - literally. This was probably one of the most dangerous and hated weapons in the British army. Initial models would jam, go off whenever they felt like it and frequently caused self-inflicted wounds. My father was issued one of these things for use during the Jewish terrorist scare in London just after WWII (weird, he was Jewish). Anyhoo, he often paraded without the firing pin in, as it was so unreliable - he told stories of it going off when dropped or even just carried in a sling.

Many Israeli vets complain the same about the UZI SMGs. I guess it liked to go off when dropped from a truck or half track. I'd guess any weapon the fires from the open bolt can have the problem. Just like many semi-auto rifles with free floating firing pins can have slam fires when the bolt is sent home.
 
I've never seen a USN M16A3. But I have seen old M16A1 (full auto) lowers with new M16A2 uppers in the hands of USN SeaBees more than once. The rest of USN units I seen on the ground were armed with M4's or M16A2 they got from the Army or Marines. Hell I served on a USN ship in the late 90's that still had 1911's and M14 in it arms lockers

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they made at least some of the A3s, because if the A2 upper will bolt on to the A1 lower, or can be adapted with a few tweaks by a gunsmith, then it'd be a way to save a few bucks. The impression I got was that A3s are pretty rare outside specops units (and even there, probably not all that common, and are probably being replaced with the new stuff from FN, HK, & so on.) Then again, wouldn't be surprised if warship arms lockers are fairly low in priority for new gear, and the M14 might be better for some of the stuff you'd need a rifle for on a ship such as shooting stray mines.

It's a good rule of thump to discount 99.9999% of military things found in video games. ;)

Well, I was just saying that there's the only place I've ever seen a full-auto A4, and wherever the programmers might have come up with it, that sort of stuff can mutate into a urban legend sort of thing on the internet being spread by those who don't know any better.:)
 
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