A different Japan

JonesHenry

Banned
Could Japan have avoidet WW2?



While it is very unlikely, it is still an interesting question.



What makes Japans war so interesting is, that Japans war against China began already in 1937

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident



Contrary to popular pinion, the Japanese saw the axis with Germany and Italy being only of little value. It was more then anything else a siple formality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact


Japanese leaders never even thought about getting involed in European wars. The so called "alliance" between Germany and Japan was a pure formality simply do to the heavy distances. WW2 in Europe started most of all because Hitler was mad and wanted one. Italy simply joined in for the spoils.


Japana assault against the Chinese began in 1937, and was in no co-ordination with Germany or Italy. Nor does the war seem to have begun as a result of any kind of a territorial dispute between the 2 countries.


There were disputes even among the Japanese top leaders on wheter taking over China was a good idea. It apears the combination of a weak emperor(Hirohito)and a weak Japanese PM(Tojo)played a big role in this catastrophy, wich caused Japan over a million troops while brining no worth while victory.


Neither men could or wanted to stop the army, once it had began it's unilateral offensive following the so called "marco polo bridge incident" and the shooting of a Japanese militant in Shanghai. Both the Japanese and the Chinese nationalist leaders had there reasons to try to avoid a total war. Chinas Chiang Kai-shek saw the ahnialation of the communist "threat" as a top priority, while the Japanese nationalist like Kani Ishiwara were afraid of the Soviets in the north(Mantsuria)and the Americans in the south(the Philipines)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara



Ironicly while both sides tried to avoid open war, it happened none the less.


Japans union with Germany and Italy was only in name, and most resources were deticated to the Chinese front. It took the American FDR 4-years to finally declare Japan on a trade embargo(as a result of Chinese requests) in 1941 Only at this point that the Japanese consider war with America. In otherwords, it was not the first and foremost objective of the Hirohito-Tojo administraison, as much as winning a war with China and submiting her.


This was a war of imperialism, where Japan in reality was the sole agressor, and it is very likely that the so called "Marco polo incident" was staged, in other words no Japanese soldiers were ever missing from there camps, and the Japanese naval officer shot dead in Shanghai was a radical agent trying to take over the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shanghai


Japans war policy in Asia was mostly aimned an Chinese submission. War against America was an attempt to take over valuable resources from America and western countries in order to keep the war going, including cutting off the so called "Burmese road" to China. Japan also used heavily bioweapons in China and mass mudered millions of Chinese!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_516

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War


In Japan this war of genocide was officially called "Seisen" That is;holy war! But why?



Possibly the Japanese leadershing genuinely believed the war would only last a couple of months. Intead in went on for 8-years with no victory in sight. By the time Japan expandet the war against America it was already lost. Japan also had some confortations with the Soviet Union, but managed to stop them before they became a serious manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Neutrality_Pact


Japans war against china was 1 of the biggest criminal enterprises in history, that finally lead to an epic defeat at the hands of the Americans. Japanese nationalist propaganda today continues to portrait America as the agressor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7702374.stm


Guess there isn't much to say anymore, except that they REALLY RELALLY bad wanted to go to China, rape and take over the country. The so called "Showa restoration might have had something to do with it as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_26_Incident


Thats all i really have to say about it. There were some even in the Japanese military like Kanji Ishiwara, who said Japan had been taken over by a bunch of criminals. Ishiwara was a top level Japanese military officer, so hes word carries some weight. There were also plenty of other people inside the Japanese society who were against the militarist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=89034

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_Takashi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijuro_Shidehara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takuma_Dan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minobe_Tatsukichi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saitō_Takao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Takagi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigoro_Kano


Then i guess the question is, where did these fanatics come from, and how did they genuinly believe that they were going to get away with there plans? They practicly speaking handet out to FDR the war he wanted on a silver plater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor



I suppose they really thought they could keep America out of the war somehow, and rap up the China campaign in a couple of months. When that all failed especially after midway they decidet to sacrifice the Japanese people in a massive suicide campaign to take away Americas will to fight. I bet they had never heared about the atom bombs:cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki



Talk about total fools! Well, Mcarthur said the Japanese were a nation of 12-year olds. Judging by that Americans(atleast of that time)had to around the mental age of 16, but the dufference is still pretty huge!



Is there any change in your mind Japan could have stayed away from the war in China, and if so, what would have happened if Japan would have went to war with both US&USSR along with the other axis allies? Would have the end result simply been the same?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Well, the Japanese had that little idea that they had a manifest destiny in East Asia and the Pacific. They needed resources they didn't had for the contnuous campaign in China, so attacking the European Colonies would have happened. The Joker is the US. The American Trade Embargo became a trigger for the Pearl Harbor attack, which got the US involved early. However had the embargo not happened, Japan would have struck the European Colonies in East Asia anyway. Also the Americans would not be sitting on the sidelines forever.
 

JonesHenry

Banned
True! Your get nuked either way:rolleyes: The only option would be not to starts a war with China, but Japan on the other hand would have been drawn into the axis with Germany and Italy to fight both the US&USSR
 
If it wasn't in the Axis, would Japan still have invaded the European colonies in SE Asia?

It would probably have depended on how much prressure the US put on the UK and the netherlands. While neither country was exactly enamoured of Japan, they had much more important things to do at the time than pick a fight with them. So if the US doesnt pressure for the blockade, its likely they would have kept on selling Japan what she needed.
Now does Japan think its better to keep on in China (which was, after all, the whole point of the war, to get the resources it needed to keep invading China!), while paying for its raw materials, or gamble on taking them and hoping the USA wont get involved...?
 
Well, the Japanese had that little idea that they had a manifest destiny in East Asia and the Pacific. They needed resources they didn't had for the continuous campaign in China, so attacking the European Colonies would have happened. The Joker is the US. The American Trade Embargo became a trigger for the Pearl Harbor attack, which got the US involved early. However had the embargo not happened, Japan would have struck the European Colonies in East Asia anyway. Also the Americans would not be sitting on the sidelines forever.

I haven't seen any evidence that Japan would've struck the European colonies anyway in that time period. They may have eventually encouraged some kind of local rebellion or supported it. However, it was the embargo which pushed them - otherwise they would've left the Europeans alone and carried on in northern China instead.

Japan was happy enough to buy resources, trade, and so on, but they wanted some nearby territory as "buffer states" in the same way that European nations had been doing for ages. Going by the example of the European powers, which Japan sought to emulate. Imperialism was the way of things before WW2, and in many ways that really hasn't stopped; powerful nations continue to invade/bomb smaller nations.

Unfortunately, the Japanese never understood the USA nor the American mindset, neither did the USA seem to understand the Japanese mindset. It's a pity that they managed to rub each other the wrong way all the time, and still do.

Japan isn't the only nation whose ruling elite seem to suffer that "manifest destiny" delusion.
 
Could Japan have avoidet WW2?

Yes, they could have, if things had gone differently over the decades after 1900.

There was a lot of misunderstanding on both sides, and to some extent it was American actions which got the militarists into power in Japan because the Japanese kept feeling cheated, stabbed in the back by their supposed "ally", or otherwise insulted. It happened repeatedly, and neither side understood how their actions were driving the situation worse.

Both sides acted like children in the other's opinion
 
Well, Mcarthur said the Japanese were a nation of 12-year olds.

It's purely subjective. From the Asian point of view, most westerners act like little immature kids. Many Japanese I've met have mentioned this opinion about Americans, just as much as Americans have mentioned this opinion about Japanese.

The cultural viewpoint, the way of thinking, there's pluses and minuses both ways. In reality, neither is any less or more mature than the other overall, it just depends on the specific situation
 
Could an intelligent Japanese policy from the 20s have given access to markets and raw materials and influence over China without fighting an exeptionally brutal war of aggression?
 
Could an intelligent Japanese policy from the 20s have given access to markets and raw materials and influence over China without fighting an exeptionally brutal war of aggression?

Most certainly. If they had set up better industrial organization, and had sought after a nationwide policy on maintaining this through massive economic restructuring and educational reforms in the 1920s, the changes in the way they culturally perceived labour and social organization would potentially butterfly away militarist influence and the need to expand anywhere out of Korea and Formosa.
 

JonesHenry

Banned
1 conspiracy is, that the commnist had a secret pact with the Japanese. Many Japanese nationalists like Kanji Ishiwara actually DID NOT want a war with China! Under the secret pact, the communist would not attack the Japanese, if they decidet to invade. This was backed up later the communist being armed with Japanese weapons. It is ofter wondered why the communist won the Chinese civil war wich happaned soon after the war against the Japanese agression endet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War


The fact it;it happaned with Japanese weapons! The Soviets gave some weapons they had confiscated from the Japanese in Mantsuria to the communist, but for the most part the Japanese handet the weapons to the Chinese communist themselves. There was even some talk of a so called "third bomb" thet America dropped into Japan before Hirohito declared unconditional surrender in the radio. I do now know wheter it is true or not, but it is said that the bomb didn't go off, and that the Japanese military secretly handet it into the Russians as Japans surrender was taking place. It could be just a rumour but...who knows:cool:


The Chinese communist considered Japanese there allies, and Mao asked hes troops not to fight the Japanese. Eliminating the communist "threat" was Chiang Kai seks first priority. He was later at gun point by hes own officers forced to "allie" himself with Mao somewhere between Maos "long march" and the Japanese invasion. Chiang was very reluctant to declare war against the Japanese as the so called "white purges" in China had not yet endet against the communists. Ultimately he however had no other choice.


Chiang as an induvidual seemned to have been a very corrupted man, who also served in the Japanese military(so the Japanese knew just what kind of a guy he was) He was seen as powerhungry corrupted and incompotent, and sacrificed hundeds of thounsands of Chinese(mostly poorly armed peasents)troops for political gain(to show America that China can "fight the good fight") I remember reading somewhere that America tried to replace him with an American(white)commander in China, and Chinag got all furios at Macerthur over it. The New York times wrote some bad stuff about him while the war as still going on. The American military originally planned to set up bases in China to bomb Japan even better form there, but the Chinese coulnd't hold there own, so the airstriped would have not been secured. After taking over Saipan America no longer needed these Chinese bases to Bomb Japan, wich questioned the whole point of the "Chinese effort" in the war.


The Americans always ask "who lost China" It is possible that the communist made some kind of a secret treaty with the Japanese, as the Japanese concentratdet most of there attacks(massive air-raids and biological weapons being used)against the Chinese nationalists. Later after the war was over Maoist China started improving relations with Japan in the 1970's The "basic agreement" was, that Japan would only recognize mainland communist China as the "true China" In return China would not ask compensation over Japanese warcrimes in China. The deal worked, but later the Japanese started apologizing anyway and paying some compensation. Perhaps they wanted to "feel good" and to show America that big industrialized states must apologize for warcrimes or something:rolleyes: Anyway i believe that was the deal. America today supports Taiwan, and this might cause a war with China in the future. US navy is now taking part with the south-koreans in a massive anti submarine drill in the south-north Korean border following arm sales to Taiwan, wich Mainland China says are a violation of Chinas soverinity. Notice how Japans just sits there and does nothing, and also sends no Japanese JDF forces and ships to particapate in the drill:rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/30/china-sanctions-taiwan-arms-sales

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100622/wl_nm/us_korea_china_usa


Also no Japanese armsales to Taiwan. Only warhungry Asian hatin USA selling weapons to try to cause a fight!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/07/AR2010060704762_pf.html

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific...out-of-step-with-territorial-defense-1.106589



Thats how fast the political climate changes. Japan and China now have hower a dispute over Senkaku islands gass fields

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands


Funny how fasts the wind changes:cool:


P.S:Ups! Japanese-American military alliance just turned 50! Military alliance;i cut you off American markets and NUKE you, if you do not allow American nuclear weapons in Japan, so that we can NUKE China better!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8557346.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100622/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_us_military


Here is the true face of the alliance. Mr Toyoda being bullied like a little baby:D

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61D2TS20100225
 
Last edited:

Typo

Banned
ok, this was kinda interesting then the conspiracy theories came and it's like wtf

Seriously, the entire post lacks a basic historical understanding of the sino-japanese war and is now just looking insane
 
Top