A different Germany

Would a Germany united, somehow, by a different German State be radically different than the Imperial/Prussian Germany we all know and love of the late nineteenth century? What would be different?

(IE Hannover-Germany might be more inclined to stay in line with Great Britain.)
 
Would a Germany united, somehow, by a different German State be radically different than the Imperial/Prussian Germany we all know and love of the late nineteenth century? What would be different?

I suppose there could be a lot of different cultural and societal details. And the international image of Germany (read: stereotypes about the country) may be influenced by these differences (e.g. in OTL, Prussians were stereotyped as humourless and mechanical militarist maniacs who reshaped Germany into their image, etc.).

Look up Zach's Pax Gallicana (Napoleon's Victory). In that TL, the successor of the Rhein Confederacy (under Westphalian leadership) unites the German lands and Prussia is left out. She remains an outsider for long, though eventually decides to join the others after getting beaten and humiliated in a WWII analogue (in which it gets backstabbed by its former ally, a rising and increasingly fascist/nazi-like Russian Empire).
 

MSZ

Banned
You can easily imagine an Austria-led Germany, with its catholic character and universalism to develop differently than OTL Germany, with heimat-sentiment being somewhat stronger - not to mention a different socio-economic development caused by introducing ABGB and other austrian invention throughout Germany rather than the Prussian ones (differences between the Austrian and Prussian land reforms speak for themselves). Social inequality would likely be larger, as well as the political system more decentralized. The 'traditional' austrian aristocracy replacing the junkers, feudal institutions survivng longer, etc.
 
There are points in the history of Europe when the Wittelsbachs the the most powerful dynasty in Germany. Perhaps unification can be led by Bavaria?
 
1848-united Großdeutschland; liberal, reformist, and openly aligned with similar powers such as the United States, France, and Britain. A strong radical undercurrent with a perchance for socioeconomic experimentation and progressiveness. Less inclined towards militarism or empire, but still interested in the colonial game in the name of the 'civilizing mission.'
 
Would a Germany united, somehow, by a different German State be radically different than the Imperial/Prussian Germany we all know and love of the late nineteenth century? What would be different?

(IE Hannover-Germany might be more inclined to stay in line with Great Britain.)
Loving Imperial/Prussian Germany.:eek:
Eeeew no thanks.
More seriously it depend on how Germany is united a more liberal state leading the unification might be less expantionist and more willing to compromise rather then choosing confrontation. It could really shape Europe history differently.
 
How about having Wilhelm II die at birth and Henri take over, especially if Frederick III lives longer and makes some liberal reforms?
 

MSZ

Banned
Very interesting, MSZ. Do you believe there would have been a reverse-kulturkampf in Austria-Germany?

I doubt there would be any kampf within such a Germany, whether cultural or military. The entire 'fight and loot' was more of a Prussian "pastime". More tolerable of non-austrian german identities, as well as non-germans as well than Prussia. Less centralised almost certainly. "Austrianization" of Germany would most likely take a more traditional path, with its culture being adopted by other groups - clothes, playing piano, drinking coffee, wiener schnitzel replacing bratwurst etc.
 
I doubt there would be any kampf within such a Germany, whether cultural or military. The entire 'fight and loot' was more of a Prussian "pastime". More tolerable of non-austrian german identities, as well as non-germans as well than Prussia. Less centralised almost certainly. "Austrianization" of Germany would most likely take a more traditional path, with its culture being adopted by other groups - clothes, playing piano, drinking coffee, wiener schnitzel replacing bratwurst etc.

It's a nice idea, but I doubt it would work out like that. Austria's stance post-1866 is owed largely to the fact that it was relatively weak and depended on the Hungarians to maintain its stability. An Austria that is powerful enough to dominate Germany would be powerful enough to enforce its rules, and they are not pleasant. There would not be a Kulturkampf - that was a Prussian phenomenon mainly and had as much to do with the need to keep provincials in line as it did with religion. But there is a good chance for Catholic-Protestant tension, and a showdown with the Vatican sometime down the line over the limits of the secular state's rights. What would become an issue, possibly more than under Prussian hegemony, would be democracy and civil liberties. Austria as hegemon of Germany could deploy German resources to keep non-Germans in line in a much more Prussian manner (there is little doubt that it wanted to, looking at the ideas that came out of Vienna). It would also take a much less sanguine view of all the liberalism going on in places like Baden, Bavaria or Hesse. If you want the measure of what Franz Joseph would do given the resources to do it, look at 1848/9.
 
What about a Bavaria lead unification that does not take in Austria?

See, that's something that would interest me! I'm not a Bavarian expert though...

I checked out Pax Gallicana, good piece of work there.

I was even thinking some periphery semi-German powers uniting Germany (hate to sound like a video game but eh) would be cool, like a Danish Germany. Also, a Germany not united by the conservative, martial state that was Prussia might have avoided World Wars through different leadership.
 
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MSZ

Banned
It's a nice idea, but I doubt it would work out like that. Austria's stance post-1866 is owed largely to the fact that it was relatively weak and depended on the Hungarians to maintain its stability. An Austria that is powerful enough to dominate Germany would be powerful enough to enforce its rules, and they are not pleasant. There would not be a Kulturkampf - that was a Prussian phenomenon mainly and had as much to do with the need to keep provincials in line as it did with religion. But there is a good chance for Catholic-Protestant tension, and a showdown with the Vatican sometime down the line over the limits of the secular state's rights. What would become an issue, possibly more than under Prussian hegemony, would be democracy and civil liberties. Austria as hegemon of Germany could deploy German resources to keep non-Germans in line in a much more Prussian manner (there is little doubt that it wanted to, looking at the ideas that came out of Vienna). It would also take a much less sanguine view of all the liberalism going on in places like Baden, Bavaria or Hesse. If you want the measure of what Franz Joseph would do given the resources to do it, look at 1848/9.


One certainly can't predict how an Austrian-led Germany would develop. It would depend on a great number of issues, such as whether Austria would keep its posessions outside Germany or not. If it developed from an Austrian conquest of Germany, or through a Paulskirche Grossdeutschland compromise. If it was an absolut monarchy, or introduced constitutionalism. Plenty of scenarios all leading to different results.

OTL both Prussia/German empire and Austria/Austro-Hungary had become more less modern states with the beginnigs of ademocratic sytem, albeit both were flawed. Those flaws were hardly "greater or lesser" in one or the other - they were different. Was the Prussian system of "no-secret ballot" better than the Austrian system of "divide the parliament into kurien" or worse? Both essesntialy led to the legislative branches being dominated by large landowners, nobility and businessmen. They were both bad by modern standards, just bad in different ways.

A big question is whether the reforms and policies introduced OTL by both Prussia/Germany and Austria/Austro-Hungary were the results of objective conditions, leading to them being developed regardless who introduced them, or if culture played a factor in it. That is, would a Habsburg-led Brandenburg still create a Landrecht because it anwsered to the local needs of a north german state? And vice versa?

Austria was relatively weak, but what were the reasons of its weakness? Its multi-nationalism for one. But Prussia faced the obstacle of nationalisms in a way as well - it had to deal with the heimat-sentiments of the non-prussian populations for one. But wheras Prussia decided to deal with it through a Kulturkampf and the development of a Vaterland-setiment (for the lack of a better term), Austria made comprimises with the non-austrians - even in areas where it had the potential of pulling of an assimilation (Burgenland, Czechia). An Austria ruling Germany would too be relatively weak in running it - doesn't it make the probability of it having to deal with those heimat-sentiments in the same way it dealt with the non-germans (suppression at first, comprimise later)? I find that quite plausible.

I imagine religious tentions to be actually weaker in an Austrian-led Germany than a Prussian one. AH was quite multi-religious, with catholics dominating, but it did have its fair share of orthodox (Siebenburgen, East Galicia) and muslims (Bosnia and Hercegovina). Yet religous confilcts were barely present - at least, it is not the first, second or third thing that comes to mind when thinking "Austro-Hungary", whereas Prussia/Germany, despite being much more mono-religious constantly persecuted other religions - catholics, jews, etc. Again, what was the reason? My personal opinion is austrian catholicism simply being more religiously tolerant than prussian protestantism. Thus i find it that when faced with having protestant subjects (especially since they would make a majority), Austria would deal with them in the same way it dealt with the issue at home - introduce tolerance and stick to it.

Civil liberties was something IIRC Austro-Hungary was quite praised for, contrary to Prussia/Germany. While their introduction was eventually the result of a military defeat and the necessity of compromise, it wasn't out of the question even in times when Austria had an upper hand, such as when the October Diploma was suggested. I don't recall the Prussians ever making even a suggestion of offering something like that. Thus again, even when both were in full force, Austria was more willing to "play nice" than Prussia - even if only by a notch.

Maintaing feudal institutions and noble priviliges etc. surely would last longer under austrian rule, partly due to the different character the austrian nobility had. Its economic reforms also weren't as efficient as the Prussian ones. More poverty is likely to attract more socialists, leading to a reaction of conservatives, probably leading to the system somehow blocking the masses from power like OTL - the tools may be different though.

So I think that while some of the characteristics Austria and Austro-Hungary had were the result of its geographic location (no Ruhr and Silesia meaning less industry, more farmers and peasants etc.) some of them were the result of Austrian culture itself - catholicism, lesser militarism, greater tolerance for minorities, etc. Those traits would not change if the Habsburgs ruled over different peoples, thus some of the characteristics - and I think some of them may be the good ones - would be transplanted onto Germany with a benefit, while other would weaken it. Overall, such a Germany would be different, though neither better nor worse.
 
That's very interesting, thanks MSZ, very thorough, I will most likely refer back to that post for one of my Projects! So do you believe a more tolerant Austro-Germany would prosecute Global Conflict like Super Prussia did?
 

MSZ

Banned
That's very interesting, thanks MSZ, very thorough, I will most likely refer back to that post for one of my Projects! So do you believe a more tolerant Austro-Germany would prosecute Global Conflict like Super Prussia did?

That is impossible to say without any conditions or situation being presented. Austro-Hungary certainly wasn't a quiet child, it bullied those around it when it had the chance. No reason to believe an Austro-Germany would be different. Being aggressive towards weaker neigbours - sure. But also being more respectful towards maintaining a balance of power and conservative institutions not only at home but also on the international stage. So I doubt such a Germany would be holding war council meetings plotting world wars, but might find itself involved in one due to bullying slavs and angering Russia or in conflict for colonial domination with France and Britain whether it likes it or not.
 
That is impossible to say without any conditions or situation being presented. Austro-Hungary certainly wasn't a quiet child, it bullied those around it when it had the chance. No reason to believe an Austro-Germany would be different. Being aggressive towards weaker neigbours - sure. But also being more respectful towards maintaining a balance of power and conservative institutions not only at home but also on the international stage. So I doubt such a Germany would be holding war council meetings plotting world wars, but might find itself involved in one due to bullying slavs and angering Russia or in conflict for colonial domination with France and Britain whether it likes it or not.

Although being aggressive toward weaker neighbors when that was important to the state's interests or agenda is not the same as World POWER! dreams.
 
Well the Habsburgs sure did have them too a couple of centuries ago.

Having world power dreams in the 16th and to some extent 17th century does not mean that they will have them in the 19th, especially given that Germany's situation doesn't favor exploring such things - the Habsburgs were not stupid, just stubborn.
 
Well, say a state like Hannover or Baden were somehow able to unify Germany, perhaps they might get caught up in the drive to be a World Power.
 
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