A Different German Unification

If there was a recent thread on this topic, I'm sorry.

I was going through the list of Common AH cliches, and I noticed one on German unification. Although it is probably inevitable for Germany to be united after a certain point, does it necessarily have to be a Prussian unification? Besides an Austrian unification, maybe the 1848 Revolutions lead to a liberal German state?

Anyway, your challenge is to come up with the most plausible United Germany you can without Prussia leading the charge. There is no limits to when the POD is, but I would prefer it to be as late as possible.
 

MSZ

Banned
I will first, second, third and fourth that for a different German unification, the recently revived "Napoleon's Victory" by Zach is a great read. (link: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=90610)

1848 Paulenkirche and Austria are the simplest ideas, apart from a surviving, centralized HRE or Rheinbund. Other than that, there simply weren't many single powers in Germany capable of ever taking on the rest of Germany to unite it. Perhaps a Brandenburg Unification (in a timeline where Brandenburg-Prussia doesn't form)? Seeing that Prussia managed it, Brandenburg possibly could too, as East Prussia itself wasn't of vital importance to the process. Also, a Wettin unification by Saxony, if they would follow a Habsburg-like ubt more succesful policy of marriages (which they were quite good at, seeing the number of Wettins of past, or even present european thrones).
 
I wouldn't call it inevitable really. Nationalism in Germany found it's first roots in the holy Roman empire (ish) and then a while later when napoleon formed the federation of the Rhine and was later kicked out. The German confederation led by Austria and Prussia. I expect plenty of PODs could leave us with the several German states, or several confederations maybe. There are plenty of PODs that can prevent German unification if you look hard enough :) then its just a matter of finding another way :)
 
I wouldn't call it inevitable really. Nationalism in Germany found it's first roots in the holy Roman empire (ish) and then a while later when napoleon formed the federation of the Rhine and was later kicked out. The German confederation led by Austria and Prussia. I expect plenty of PODs could leave us with the several German states, or several confederations maybe. There are plenty of PODs that can prevent German unification if you look hard enough :)

Okay, so it isn't inevitable. But I'm not trying to create several German states/confederations. I want a single Germany not dominated by Prussia. Is that so much to ask for?
 
I'm not sure if having a Nordic state like Denmark be able to unify the German lands or not, but they did control Schleiswig at some point.
 
Is it impossible for Bavaria to unite Germany ? I know it would be difficult as its so close to Austria but surely as it was so powerful at some points it stands at least a chance ?
 
Is it impossible for Bavaria to unite Germany ? I know it would be difficult as its so close to Austria but surely as it was so powerful at some points it stands at least a chance ?

One of the problems is going to be keeping Bavaria united instead of split up among the Wittelsbachs.

Not sure when that stopped.
 
I'm actually writing my IB Extended Essay on this right now:D.

Well, sort of. I'm writing it on the chances of an 1848 unified Germany.

Frankly, it's pretty much impossible to do so even by that point without Prussia. It's really not in Austria's interests to be part of any German union, especially not a German nation-state. The reason for this is that a German state by definition would exclude most of Austria's territory, mainly the lands of the Hungarian Crown. No Austrian Emperor wants to give all that up for a very shaky control of Germany, even assuming they could somehow dominate Germany. As a result, the leading state in Germany will inevitably become Prussia, as the other dominant power in the Germanies, or at the very least, the strongest power. This pretty much throws out any post-1815 POD.

I think that the chances of an actual unified Germany under Napoleon are slim at best, and closer to impossible. Leaving aside the fact that Napoleonic control of the Rhineland and parts of North Germany would stoke conflict with any German state, France emphatically does not want a German nation-state on its eastern border. A loose union such as the Confederation of the Rhine, suits its interests, however, a unification of Germany, with Prussia, even the weakened Napoleonic one and possibly Austria (it wouldn't really be a unification without both of them) would be a major threat to France.
 
by the time you asking, the answer is simply no;
Prussia and Austria were too strong and napoleon couldn't hold germany for that long.

You could have Austria, but i don't know how long a Austria-dominated germany would last, i just don't think the Austrian Empire could do with all those other ethnic groups.
 
You'll need a PoD either during the War of the Austrian Succession or the Seven Years' War to have Austria or any other German state to become the top dog. Within that time period around the PoD, any Germanic or other state could become the top dog as well, and I'm proposing Denmark for a reason. If the Danes somehow fail to dominate the Nordics, could they be able to turn southwards?
 
You'll need a PoD either during the War of the Austrian Succession or the Seven Years' War to have Austria or any other German state to become the top dog. Within that time period around the PoD, any Germanic or other state could become the top dog as well, and I'm proposing Denmark for a reason. If the Danes somehow fail to dominate the Nordics, could they be able to turn southwards?

Not possible. By that time, Denmark had already become a distinct nation from Germany, and would by the 19th century face hostility from nationalists in Germany, who would perceive Danish rule as impeding on German rule; In any case, Denmark lacks the population base to rule Germany, and this is including Schleswig-Holstein. If they were to expand southwards, they would risk adding so many more Germans to their territory that the former Danish majority would feel threatened; In any case, Danish expansion into central Germany would be more likely to anger German nationalists than create acceptance for a Danish monarch. Think "Die Wacht am Danevirke."
 
I'm actually writing my IB Extended Essay on this right now:D.

Well, sort of. I'm writing it on the chances of an 1848 unified Germany.

Frankly, it's pretty much impossible to do so even by that point without Prussia. It's really not in Austria's interests to be part of any German union, especially not a German nation-state. The reason for this is that a German state by definition would exclude most of Austria's territory, mainly the lands of the Hungarian Crown. No Austrian Emperor wants to give all that up for a very shaky control of Germany, even assuming they could somehow dominate Germany. As a result, the leading state in Germany will inevitably become Prussia, as the other dominant power in the Germanies, or at the very least, the strongest power. This pretty much throws out any post-1815 POD.

I think that the chances of an actual unified Germany under Napoleon are slim at best, and closer to impossible. Leaving aside the fact that Napoleonic control of the Rhineland and parts of North Germany would stoke conflict with any German state, France emphatically does not want a German nation-state on its eastern border. A loose union such as the Confederation of the Rhine, suits its interests, however, a unification of Germany, with Prussia, even the weakened Napoleonic one and possibly Austria (it wouldn't really be a unification without both of them) would be a major threat to France.

by the time you asking, the answer is simply no;
Prussia and Austria were too strong and napoleon couldn't hold germany for that long.

You could have Austria, but i don't know how long a Austria-dominated germany would last, i just don't think the Austrian Empire could do with all those other ethnic groups.


I think that an Austrian unification of Germany maybe is still possible...
Sure an earlier PoD (perhaps with Austria which retake the Silesia during the Seven Years War) can be useful.
The biggest problems of Austria for being the Germany leader is the multi ethnic composition of its Empire but really is mostly the Hungary (balcans and italian possessions are less important, Bohemia can become part of the Germany).
A separation of the crowns may be enough to solve the problem (with the Emperor ruler or better leader of Germany through Austria and Bohemia, and at the same time King of an Hungary separated from the German Empire) or otherwise the Emperor might assigns the crowns of Hungary and Lombardy-Venetia to other members of his family (and I think that in either case this should be enough to please the Hungarian nationalists and thereby remove a huge problem of the Austrian Empire without weakening it)
 
Other than that, there simply weren't many single powers in Germany capable of ever taking on the rest of Germany to unite it.

A single power is not necessary for unification and unity.
An alliance of small and middle German states could have achieved it on its own if the major (German) powers had been less dominating.
Historically, the smaller entities were far more willing to submit to a higher (national) authority than the bigger ones.

Also, a Wettin unification by Saxony,

Is happening in Thande's Look to the West-TL.

It's really not in Austria's interests to be part of any German union,

Actually, it was and Austria was trying after 1859 to strengthen the German Confederation.
 
Actually, it was and Austria was trying after 1859 to strengthen the German Confederation.

By union, I meant nation-state, which would force Austria's Empire from her. By strengthening the Confederation, Austria managed to prevent the rise of a nation-state in Germany, while preserving her empire. A stronger Confederation works against German unification into a cohesive nation-state in the long run.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
One of the problems is going to be keeping Bavaria united instead of split up among the Wittelsbachs.

Not sure when that stopped.
1300s. But yeah, had the Wittelsbach lines not split for some reason, and Bavaria would be the leading State in the Holy Roman Empire.
 
A stronger Confederation works against German unification into a cohesive nation-state in the long run.

How would a stronger GC work against the creation of a German nation state?
What Austria proposed in 1863 would have allowed the GC to evolve into a true federation without much turmoil.
Yes, this is not what the Austrian leadership wanted, but neither was the effective result of the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867, setting Hungary on the road to real independence.
 
How would a stronger GC work against the creation of a German nation state?
What Austria proposed in 1863 would have allowed the GC to evolve into a true federation without much turmoil.
Yes, this is not what the Austrian leadership wanted, but neither was the effective result of the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867, setting Hungary on the road to real independence.

The Austrian Memorandum of 1863 was a last resort measure to prevent Prussian dominance in Germany. What Austria would really like would be to turn Germany into an Austria-dominated state and still retain their Hungarian and Italian lands, but the idea would be contradictory to the idea of a nation-state, unless Austria gave up on the idea of ever being influential in Germany proper, which they still wanted. The Austro-Prussian War, however, torpedoed that plan, and meant that Austria, with Germany lost to her, had to concentrate on her other major goal, retaining her non-Confederation Empire, necessitating the Compromise as a stopgap measure.

Ok, I worded my earlier post poorly. And by that, I mean that I probably should have read the Austrian Memorandum first before shooting my mouth off.
 
Top