A different Finnish War
- Thread starter von Adler
- Start date
Oh i didn't it was a great update. Just wondering are the ways in which the swedish (in this tl) battle (hit and run tactics) is that how the russians fought napoleon?I hope you did not miss the update on the Battle of Åbo?
Just wondering
The Swedes are not really doing hit-and-run - that is just Sandels that is preying on the Russian suppy lines doing that. The Swedes have retreated, waited to build up local superiority and then counter-attacked (which is what the Russians did 1812 as well, it just took way longer with the Grande Armee).
I find it good-looking.
Camouflage was actually a minor factor (very minor, the Jägare appreciated it), the main issue was to get a uniform that could handle field conditions and campaign better and that could be produced locally and cheaply. Grey, undyed wool is cheap, strong, warm and resistant to wear and tear and, of course, resists colour fading very well.Generally, Napoleonic uniforms were parade-like and not very well suited to life in the field. The Swedish army was a bit ahead of its time in thinking less of looking good in the line of battle and more about keeping the soldiers warm, dry and healthy to reduce their fatigue.
That is indeed a rather good beer. Odd taste. Kind of like weiss beer but not.
In Napoleonic looking bright and standing out from the smoke is what you want though. I don't think grey would fit that too well.
I find it good-looking.
Generally, Napoleonic uniforms were parade-like and not very well suited to life in the field. The Swedish army was a bit ahead of its time in thinking less of looking good in the line of battle and more about keeping the soldiers warm, dry and healthy to reduce their fatigue.
In Napoleonic looking bright and standing out from the smoke is what you want though. I don't think grey would fit that too well.
From Åbo to Helsingfors
1808-06-03
Adlercreutz have now reorganised his army into two divisions (under von Döblen and von Vegesack) and one light brigade. Western Finland is now safe and scouts from central Finland reports that Bulatov still seems less than inclined to advance nortward or westward from Tavastehus. Adlercreutz thus prepares to advance against von Buxhoevden that is still encamped at Helsingfors, laying siege to Sveaborg. With further reinforcements from Sweden, some Finnish militia and vargeringssoldater' (reserves for the normal semi-professional 'indelta' soldiers of the Swedish army) Adlercreutz now commands almost 15 000 men. At Sveaborg, af Klercker has almost 3 500 men and more than 600 cannon. Sandels now, by recruiting Finnish militia, commands close to 2 000 men, even if de Tolly has forced him to operate further north.
The advance is slow - despite the open waters and full control of the sea, the Swedes have problems bringing enough supplies to feed the by now large army they have in southwestern Finland. Infastructure here has never been good, and the strain from heavy wagons supplying the Russians during spring has certainly not helped. Neither has the fighting - nor has the Russian retreat, in which a lot bridges was torn down and the attempts by the sparse Finnish militia to attack the Russian supply lines during early spring.
1808-06-08
The Russian General Rajevskij is deemed incompetent and is replaced by the far more skilled General Nikolaj Kamenskij. It does not take Kamenskij long to whip into shape the sorry remains of Rajevksij's army. As von Buxhoevden assigns him a division from the main Russian army in Finland, Kamenskij has no problems to advance westward to halt Adlercreutz advance towards Helsingfors. As Adlercreutz and Kamenskij skirmishes in the forests, looking for good positions and trying to determine the resolve and strength of their opponents, Adlercreutz decides to gamble. Savolaxbrigaden, a good part of his best light troops will, together with the British troops, detach from his army and attempt to take bakc Tavastehus in a coup - even if they fail that, they should force Kamenskij to detach substantial forces - a combination of Sandel's forces and Savolaxbrigaden in their rear should be a threat enough to allow Adlercreutz to achieve local superiority and force Kamenskij back and retake Helsingfors.
However, Adlercreutz is not aware that now that the roads are dry, von Buxhoevden is able to muster substantial reinforcements from Viborg and even further east. He can now command more than 35 000 men. However, 4 000 are with Bulatov at Tavastehus, too far away from Helsingfors to be of immediate use. Kamenskij commands roughly 8 000 to keep Adlercreutz away in the west while de Tolly has 6 000 men to chase Sandels with. A further 8 000 are trying to keep the supply lines safe from raiding by both Sandels and Cronstedt and his Archipelago navy. This means that von Buxhoevden only has 9 000 men to keep af Klercker and Sveaborg under siege. However, stripping Svartholma allows von Buxhoevden to build up a serious siege artillery on Skansholmen to shell Gustavssvärd.
By now, the Russians have almost 40 000 men defending from Saint Petersburg to Windau, as the Royal Navy and Swedish Navy is patrolling the waters. Coastal trade has become close to impossible and Dagö and Ösel are almost isolated.
The Russian supply situation has improved - the roads being dry and de Tolly mostly being able to keep Sandels away from the heavy carts and wagons of the Russian supply train has improved the situation. In some ways, Rajevksij's defeat and the near-total loss of his army is a blessing in disguise - with no need to supply as many men as far to the west, the Russians can build up stockpiles around Sveaborg. However, the Swedish control of the waterways and the Archipelago navy means that the Russians have to transport all supplies by land, which is slow and cumbersome.
The Russian more is also not superb. First Austerlitz, and now they cannot even destroy a small has-been power like Sweden? Many Russians are constantly nervous about attacks from Finnish militia or Sandels Jägare.
1808-06-12
While Bulatov has been breated for not advancing all spring, his caution pays off as Savolaxbrigaden arrives outside Tavastehus, ready for a re-match. The Russian posts reports the Swedish arrival and Colonel Cronstedt decides after a brief skrimish, more a recon attempt than any battle, that the impressive earthworks and supply dumps that Bulatov has built up is too strong to challenge. And his 18 3pdr guns are not the weapon to break down siege works. Soon both sides are locked into a siege with the Swedes doing hit-and-run artillery attacks and snipes at Russian troops sticking their head up too high over the earthworks with their rifles. However, Savolaxbrigaden is a unit ill suited for siege combat, especially as it completely lacks heavy artillery.
1808-06-13
As the full summer blooms all over Finland as both sides seem locked in sieges. The Russians lay siege to Sveaborg and the Swedes lay siege to the Russians west of Helsingfors and at Tavastehus.
1808-06-03
Adlercreutz have now reorganised his army into two divisions (under von Döblen and von Vegesack) and one light brigade. Western Finland is now safe and scouts from central Finland reports that Bulatov still seems less than inclined to advance nortward or westward from Tavastehus. Adlercreutz thus prepares to advance against von Buxhoevden that is still encamped at Helsingfors, laying siege to Sveaborg. With further reinforcements from Sweden, some Finnish militia and vargeringssoldater' (reserves for the normal semi-professional 'indelta' soldiers of the Swedish army) Adlercreutz now commands almost 15 000 men. At Sveaborg, af Klercker has almost 3 500 men and more than 600 cannon. Sandels now, by recruiting Finnish militia, commands close to 2 000 men, even if de Tolly has forced him to operate further north.
The advance is slow - despite the open waters and full control of the sea, the Swedes have problems bringing enough supplies to feed the by now large army they have in southwestern Finland. Infastructure here has never been good, and the strain from heavy wagons supplying the Russians during spring has certainly not helped. Neither has the fighting - nor has the Russian retreat, in which a lot bridges was torn down and the attempts by the sparse Finnish militia to attack the Russian supply lines during early spring.
1808-06-08
The Russian General Rajevskij is deemed incompetent and is replaced by the far more skilled General Nikolaj Kamenskij. It does not take Kamenskij long to whip into shape the sorry remains of Rajevksij's army. As von Buxhoevden assigns him a division from the main Russian army in Finland, Kamenskij has no problems to advance westward to halt Adlercreutz advance towards Helsingfors. As Adlercreutz and Kamenskij skirmishes in the forests, looking for good positions and trying to determine the resolve and strength of their opponents, Adlercreutz decides to gamble. Savolaxbrigaden, a good part of his best light troops will, together with the British troops, detach from his army and attempt to take bakc Tavastehus in a coup - even if they fail that, they should force Kamenskij to detach substantial forces - a combination of Sandel's forces and Savolaxbrigaden in their rear should be a threat enough to allow Adlercreutz to achieve local superiority and force Kamenskij back and retake Helsingfors.
However, Adlercreutz is not aware that now that the roads are dry, von Buxhoevden is able to muster substantial reinforcements from Viborg and even further east. He can now command more than 35 000 men. However, 4 000 are with Bulatov at Tavastehus, too far away from Helsingfors to be of immediate use. Kamenskij commands roughly 8 000 to keep Adlercreutz away in the west while de Tolly has 6 000 men to chase Sandels with. A further 8 000 are trying to keep the supply lines safe from raiding by both Sandels and Cronstedt and his Archipelago navy. This means that von Buxhoevden only has 9 000 men to keep af Klercker and Sveaborg under siege. However, stripping Svartholma allows von Buxhoevden to build up a serious siege artillery on Skansholmen to shell Gustavssvärd.
By now, the Russians have almost 40 000 men defending from Saint Petersburg to Windau, as the Royal Navy and Swedish Navy is patrolling the waters. Coastal trade has become close to impossible and Dagö and Ösel are almost isolated.
The Russian supply situation has improved - the roads being dry and de Tolly mostly being able to keep Sandels away from the heavy carts and wagons of the Russian supply train has improved the situation. In some ways, Rajevksij's defeat and the near-total loss of his army is a blessing in disguise - with no need to supply as many men as far to the west, the Russians can build up stockpiles around Sveaborg. However, the Swedish control of the waterways and the Archipelago navy means that the Russians have to transport all supplies by land, which is slow and cumbersome.
The Russian more is also not superb. First Austerlitz, and now they cannot even destroy a small has-been power like Sweden? Many Russians are constantly nervous about attacks from Finnish militia or Sandels Jägare.
1808-06-12
While Bulatov has been breated for not advancing all spring, his caution pays off as Savolaxbrigaden arrives outside Tavastehus, ready for a re-match. The Russian posts reports the Swedish arrival and Colonel Cronstedt decides after a brief skrimish, more a recon attempt than any battle, that the impressive earthworks and supply dumps that Bulatov has built up is too strong to challenge. And his 18 3pdr guns are not the weapon to break down siege works. Soon both sides are locked into a siege with the Swedes doing hit-and-run artillery attacks and snipes at Russian troops sticking their head up too high over the earthworks with their rifles. However, Savolaxbrigaden is a unit ill suited for siege combat, especially as it completely lacks heavy artillery.
1808-06-13
As the full summer blooms all over Finland as both sides seem locked in sieges. The Russians lay siege to Sveaborg and the Swedes lay siege to the Russians west of Helsingfors and at Tavastehus.
Von Aldler - if it won't spoil the TL, what are your thoughts on the optimal border with Russia, for defensive & economic purposes and given Sweden's resources
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It is "von Adler", not "Von Aldar".
The optimal border would probably be along Systerbäck, Ladoga, Svir, Onega, Vygozero and then the White Sea. However, that border only makes sense in a modern perspective, when waterways become hinders rather than the most effective infrastructure. Also, before the early 1900s, the region is close to completely useless, as it is sparsely populated at best. It was not until the Russians built Romanov-na-Murman (Murmansk) at Fort Kola and built the railroad to Saint Petersburg and Moscow that the region got infrastructure enough to support any kind of troop movements. The Finnish Winter War 1940 was the first time an army operated north of Ladoga.
So it is really a hard border to get without letting hindsight rule. Before 1914 (and even after, if you butterfly away ww1 and the Entente supplies delivered to Rumanov-na-Murman and the infrastructure built to get it to the front) the region is useless. Poor, large, sparsely populated, not giving access to anything you can't get access to far easier and devoid of infrastructure - Swedish Kings taking territory from Russia would be far more interested in Novgorod, controlling more of the Neva, Pskov or Estonia and Livonia (if after 1721) than Far Karelia.
In modern times, when this shortened border which gives you territory to trade for time, good bottlenecks for defence and water hinders for an advancing enemy makes sense, the area is largely populated by Russians and is a core Russian territory with important infrastructure and thus not something you can just rip from them.
The optimal border would probably be along Systerbäck, Ladoga, Svir, Onega, Vygozero and then the White Sea. However, that border only makes sense in a modern perspective, when waterways become hinders rather than the most effective infrastructure. Also, before the early 1900s, the region is close to completely useless, as it is sparsely populated at best. It was not until the Russians built Romanov-na-Murman (Murmansk) at Fort Kola and built the railroad to Saint Petersburg and Moscow that the region got infrastructure enough to support any kind of troop movements. The Finnish Winter War 1940 was the first time an army operated north of Ladoga.
So it is really a hard border to get without letting hindsight rule. Before 1914 (and even after, if you butterfly away ww1 and the Entente supplies delivered to Rumanov-na-Murman and the infrastructure built to get it to the front) the region is useless. Poor, large, sparsely populated, not giving access to anything you can't get access to far easier and devoid of infrastructure - Swedish Kings taking territory from Russia would be far more interested in Novgorod, controlling more of the Neva, Pskov or Estonia and Livonia (if after 1721) than Far Karelia.
In modern times, when this shortened border which gives you territory to trade for time, good bottlenecks for defence and water hinders for an advancing enemy makes sense, the area is largely populated by Russians and is a core Russian territory with important infrastructure and thus not something you can just rip from them.
Cool so they are basically trying to exhaust russian resources then attack very good strategy
Just wondering when peice talks are over and everything how would sweden compensate for it's meagre manpower?
It is "von Adler", not "Von Aldar".
The optimal border would probably be along Systerbäck, Ladoga, Svir, Onega, Vygozero and then the White Sea. However, that border only makes sense in a modern perspective, when waterways become hinders rather than the most effective infrastructure. Also, before the early 1900s, the region is close to completely useless, as it is sparsely populated at best. It was not until the Russians built Romanov-na-Murman (Murmansk) at Fort Kola and built the railroad to Saint Petersburg and Moscow that the region got infrastructure enough to support any kind of troop movements. The Finnish Winter War 1940 was the first time an army operated north of Ladoga.
So it is really a hard border to get without letting hindsight rule. Before 1914 (and even after, if you butterfly away ww1 and the Entente supplies delivered to Rumanov-na-Murman and the infrastructure built to get it to the front) the region is useless. Poor, large, sparsely populated, not giving access to anything you can't get access to far easier and devoid of infrastructure - Swedish Kings taking territory from Russia would be far more interested in Novgorod, controlling more of the Neva, Pskov or Estonia and Livonia (if after 1721) than Far Karelia.
In modern times, when this shortened border which gives you territory to trade for time, good bottlenecks for defence and water hinders for an advancing enemy makes sense, the area is largely populated by Russians and is a core Russian territory with important infrastructure and thus not something you can just rip from them.
Thanks - I was looking at a map when reading your latest post and trying to make sense of what they would be aiming for.
I was in Saint Petersburg a couple of weeks back and now I can see why the Russians were a little paranoid about being attacked
Sorry about the name - I meant to double check it but clearly forgot
They can't really, not in 1808, but getting some back to get some more and have some more terrain to trade for time could be possible.
Gustav IV Adolf would like the 1700 borders, minus Ingermanland and Saint Petersburg, but that will not be doable.
The siege of Helsingfors.
1808-07-12
For more than a month both sides have been staring at each other over field fortifications, redoubts and earthworks. Both sides have received reinforcements and waits for more. By now the area is completely devoid of fodder and the large number of men and horses have destroyed the little grazing there was. The Russian cavalry, until now one of their main advantages in this campaign, have been completely dehorsed. Both sides are struggling to keep enough horses alive to move the artillery. The Swedes manhandle most of theirs, since the light 3pdr with anmarschbommar is well suited for it. The Finnish society is showing the first signs of war weariness - the militia that faced too many enthusiastic recruits now have problems getting any men at all - what little there is that shows up is directed towards regular units to replace the losses from disease that are rampant in the summer heat. Sandels is having problems recruiting for his free partisan groups, that also call themselves the Finnish militia, too. Discipline is slowly grinded down and reports of contact between enemy formations to trade and have a chat comes in, despite the attempts by the officers to stop any such fraternisation.
Skirmishing happens every day, but larger clashes have been avoided by both sides. Generally, the British force is in better shape than the Swedish troops, due to better camp discipline and thus less disease, its own supply service and good communications with the Royal Navy, which delivers supply.
From Stockholm, King Gustav IV Adolf pressures for an attack and glory for the Swedish arms, now! Adlercreutz is unwilling to attack without coordination with af Klercker, and af Klercker is unwilling to risk the entire Swedish force in a major battle. As long as Sveaborg holds, the Russians are at a disadvantage and cannot hope to outlast the Swedes, who hold almost all of Finland and have control over the sea, which means much better lines of communication. However, the King is not satisfied with this and when news reaches af Klercker that the King has moved his headquarters to Åland as a first step to assume command himself, he realises that he has to make a move or be replaced as Commander in Chief of the Swedish forces in Finland.
While the King inspects the Guard at Åland, watches reinforcements be shipped off, receives a superb welcome at Åland, with cheering crowds and passes out rewards for the bravery of the Åland population during the Battle of Kumlinge in April, Adlercreutz joins Cronstedt and af Klercker at Sveaborg to discuss a plan.
The latest reports from Sandels is that he has been driven further north by de Tolly and can no longer really prey on the Russian supply lines. Kamenskij is holding Adlercreutz, allowing von Buxhoevden to build up for an assault of Sveaborg. The Russians are gathering small boats and are building large rafts with attached artillery from Svartholma to aid them in an assault, something which worries af Klercker. If Sveaborg falls, the entire Russian army will be free to crush Adlercrutz and Finland will be lost.
After some pondering and discussions, where Adlercreutz is in favour of a directly offensive plan, af Klercker being more catious and Cronstedt arguing for an indirect aproach, the three men agree.
The plan will be as follows;
1. Savolaxbrigaden (the Savolax Brigade) will leave the siege of Tavastehus, leaivng a thin screening force of some of the best Jägare to fool Bulatov and his force, which includes a large part of the still horse-borne Russian cavalry, into thinking they are still there. If failing to fool Bulatov, the screen shall harass him as much as possible, hopefully delaying his departure enough to make sure he can play little or no part in the upcoming battle at Helsingfors. The brigade will then march south to join forces with Adlercreutz, hopefully turning Kamenskij's flank.
2. Sandels and his Jägare and Finnish militia will give de Tolly the slip, move around him to the southwest and threaten the Russian supply lines again, hopefully drawing off Russian reinforcements and keeping de Tolly and his men from Helsingfors.
3. The archipelago navy, supported by a substantial part of the regular navy, will land troops behing the Russian lines and attack the Russian supply lines. The intention is to establish contact with Sandels and his Jägare and Finnish militia and, if required, evacuate them. The landing is to kick up as much dust as possible - if done well enough, it will convince von Buxhoevden that it is a major operation and that he will be surrounded unless he retreats. The archipelago navy will also enter the bay and attack the Russian siege artillery and the flotilla of rafts and boats the Russians hava gathered.
4. The garrison of Sveaborg will aid the archipelago navy in attacking the Russian flotilla and siege artillery - the garrison will provide the landed infantry that will attack the Russian artillery.
5. Adlercreutz' army, the largest Swedish force around Helsingfors will hold Kamenskij's force in a divisionary attack that will enable the other operations to succeed. When Savolaxbrigaden arrives, it will turn the flank of Kamenskij's force and hopefully force him to retreat. It is the hope of the three Swedish commanders that it will look to von Buxhoevden that the Swedes are looking to surround his force and that this will force him to retreat, especially if his siege equipment is destroyed.
In total, the plan is a series of disconnected, low-risk attacks and rusesm which together will create the appearance of a grand coordinated attack. With little loss and little risk, the Russians should be driven away.
However, the plan falls apart even before any combat has been initiated.
1808-07-12
For more than a month both sides have been staring at each other over field fortifications, redoubts and earthworks. Both sides have received reinforcements and waits for more. By now the area is completely devoid of fodder and the large number of men and horses have destroyed the little grazing there was. The Russian cavalry, until now one of their main advantages in this campaign, have been completely dehorsed. Both sides are struggling to keep enough horses alive to move the artillery. The Swedes manhandle most of theirs, since the light 3pdr with anmarschbommar is well suited for it. The Finnish society is showing the first signs of war weariness - the militia that faced too many enthusiastic recruits now have problems getting any men at all - what little there is that shows up is directed towards regular units to replace the losses from disease that are rampant in the summer heat. Sandels is having problems recruiting for his free partisan groups, that also call themselves the Finnish militia, too. Discipline is slowly grinded down and reports of contact between enemy formations to trade and have a chat comes in, despite the attempts by the officers to stop any such fraternisation.
Skirmishing happens every day, but larger clashes have been avoided by both sides. Generally, the British force is in better shape than the Swedish troops, due to better camp discipline and thus less disease, its own supply service and good communications with the Royal Navy, which delivers supply.
From Stockholm, King Gustav IV Adolf pressures for an attack and glory for the Swedish arms, now! Adlercreutz is unwilling to attack without coordination with af Klercker, and af Klercker is unwilling to risk the entire Swedish force in a major battle. As long as Sveaborg holds, the Russians are at a disadvantage and cannot hope to outlast the Swedes, who hold almost all of Finland and have control over the sea, which means much better lines of communication. However, the King is not satisfied with this and when news reaches af Klercker that the King has moved his headquarters to Åland as a first step to assume command himself, he realises that he has to make a move or be replaced as Commander in Chief of the Swedish forces in Finland.
While the King inspects the Guard at Åland, watches reinforcements be shipped off, receives a superb welcome at Åland, with cheering crowds and passes out rewards for the bravery of the Åland population during the Battle of Kumlinge in April, Adlercreutz joins Cronstedt and af Klercker at Sveaborg to discuss a plan.
The latest reports from Sandels is that he has been driven further north by de Tolly and can no longer really prey on the Russian supply lines. Kamenskij is holding Adlercreutz, allowing von Buxhoevden to build up for an assault of Sveaborg. The Russians are gathering small boats and are building large rafts with attached artillery from Svartholma to aid them in an assault, something which worries af Klercker. If Sveaborg falls, the entire Russian army will be free to crush Adlercrutz and Finland will be lost.
After some pondering and discussions, where Adlercreutz is in favour of a directly offensive plan, af Klercker being more catious and Cronstedt arguing for an indirect aproach, the three men agree.
The plan will be as follows;
1. Savolaxbrigaden (the Savolax Brigade) will leave the siege of Tavastehus, leaivng a thin screening force of some of the best Jägare to fool Bulatov and his force, which includes a large part of the still horse-borne Russian cavalry, into thinking they are still there. If failing to fool Bulatov, the screen shall harass him as much as possible, hopefully delaying his departure enough to make sure he can play little or no part in the upcoming battle at Helsingfors. The brigade will then march south to join forces with Adlercreutz, hopefully turning Kamenskij's flank.
2. Sandels and his Jägare and Finnish militia will give de Tolly the slip, move around him to the southwest and threaten the Russian supply lines again, hopefully drawing off Russian reinforcements and keeping de Tolly and his men from Helsingfors.
3. The archipelago navy, supported by a substantial part of the regular navy, will land troops behing the Russian lines and attack the Russian supply lines. The intention is to establish contact with Sandels and his Jägare and Finnish militia and, if required, evacuate them. The landing is to kick up as much dust as possible - if done well enough, it will convince von Buxhoevden that it is a major operation and that he will be surrounded unless he retreats. The archipelago navy will also enter the bay and attack the Russian siege artillery and the flotilla of rafts and boats the Russians hava gathered.
4. The garrison of Sveaborg will aid the archipelago navy in attacking the Russian flotilla and siege artillery - the garrison will provide the landed infantry that will attack the Russian artillery.
5. Adlercreutz' army, the largest Swedish force around Helsingfors will hold Kamenskij's force in a divisionary attack that will enable the other operations to succeed. When Savolaxbrigaden arrives, it will turn the flank of Kamenskij's force and hopefully force him to retreat. It is the hope of the three Swedish commanders that it will look to von Buxhoevden that the Swedes are looking to surround his force and that this will force him to retreat, especially if his siege equipment is destroyed.
In total, the plan is a series of disconnected, low-risk attacks and rusesm which together will create the appearance of a grand coordinated attack. With little loss and little risk, the Russians should be driven away.
However, the plan falls apart even before any combat has been initiated.