A Different Different 1939

I missed the other thread for some reason and have to admit I'm not up to reading right through it but it's inspired me. So here we go.

1930: The Polish government signs a contract with American tank designer Walter Christie for the production and delivery of a single M1928 tank. This arrives in Poland in July.

1931: Zygmunt Pulawski, designer of the PZL P.7 fighter decides to postpone the sixth test flight of his PZL.12 flying boat because of adverse wind conditions. The first test model of the TPC (Tank Polish Christie) rolls out.

1932: The first Vickers 6-Ton tanks arrive in Poland. While they are found acceptable it is obvious that the TPC has more potential.

1933: Adolph Hitler comes to power in Germany. The Polish Air Force issues a requirement for a monoplane fighter with a speed of 300 mph and an armament of six 7.92 mm machine guns.

1934: The Polish government commits to a major rearmament and military reorganisation program. The Polish Air Force issues a requirement for a twin engine "attack fighter" armed with four 20mm cannon. The Polish army and airforce both start research into rocket artillery.

1935: The prototype PZL P.29 flies. Designed by Zygmunt Pulawski the P.29 is a stressed skin low wing monoplane with wide set retractable undercarriage, powered by a Pratt & Whitney 1050hp engine. At the same time the initial production batch of the 18TP tank. The tank has Christie suspension, well sloped armour, a 37mm Bofors gun and two 7.92mm machine guns, a 190hp engine and most importantly a five man crew of commander, gunner, loader, driver and radio operator. A Polish delegation visits the Skoda Works in Czechoslovakia to view potential products. An order for 200 10.5 cm Vz 35 field guns results as does an interest in the latest 47mm anti-tank gun. A batch of modified Tatra 82's is also ordered to increase infantry mobility. The Poles start to experiment with armoured brigades.

1936: The first flight of the PZL P.33 ground attack plane. The aircraft is a single seat, stressed skin monoplane powered by a pair of Twin Wasp engines. The plane is fast, agile and well armed with four 20mm Oerlikon FF cannon. It is also armoured. A government report recommends that Poland develop a tank destroyer using a turretless hull of the 18TP to allow a build up of AFV numbers. The vehicle, designated 18TD, will mount the 47mm Skoda model 35 anti-tank gun. It is also recommended that the 18TP is equipped with this gun. Licenses to produce the 10.5mm Skoda gun and the Tatra T82 are purchased.

1937: PZL P.29 enters service. The production version is armed four .50 machine guns and is capable of 320 mph. The Polish Army tests it's firs rocket artillery system. Consisting of a Tatra T82 truck mounting ten launch rails for 120mm rockets the weapon proves highly successful in the tests and is ordered into production. The parallel Air Force program to produce an air launched 70mm projectile is also going well.

1938: The mark two version of the 18TP enters production. Minor changes to improve engine power, armour thickness and overall reliability have been introduced but the main change is the switch from the 37mm Bofors gun to the 47mm Skoda gun. The 47mm armed 18TD is also entering production. The removal of the turret allows for extra frontal armour to be carried. An alternative version armed with a French Model 1919 75mm mountain gun is also being designed.

1939: By the end of August the Polish Army will have recieved 60 18TP (37mm), 175 18TP (47mm), 120 18TD (47mm), 82 18TD (75mm), 200 10.5 cm field guns, 90 T82R, while the Polish Air Force has 200 PZL P.29 and 120 PZL P.33, just under half of the latter are modified to carry 70 mm rockets.
 
You need to add the following:

1 ) Polish army platoons are able to properly deploy the Wz. 35 anti-tank rifle, which could penetrate the armor of most German tanks of the September campaign. "The effective range was 300 metres and the weapon was effective against all German tanks of the period (the Panzer I, II and III, as well as the Czech-made LT-35 and LT-38) at 100 meters. At up to 400 meters it could penetrate all lightly armored vehicles. It could penetrate 15 mm of armor, sloped at 30° at 300 m distance, or 33 mm of armor at 100 m. Interestingly, an Italian manual stated maximum penetration as 40 mm." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle
2) Polish forces are concentrated in a more defensive pattern than what they had in other TL.
Well this won't stop the invasion, but it will slow it down a good oiece, won't it, it might even cause it to bog dow and leave a Polish rump state.
 
Poland needed to set up a three-C organization of forward air observers with radio and telephone communications and fighter controllers to govern the use of fighter assets, as per BoB.

I hope the P.29 was designed for quick turn-around, as per Martin-Baker MB2, because they wouldn't be wanting to spent too much time on the ground. Poland would also have to plan for offensive strikes against German forward bases and choke points. Without an offensive, and the ability, manpower and tools to perform strikes, the result is OTL.
 
I hope the P.29 was designed for quick turn-around, as per Martin-Baker MB2, because they wouldn't be wanting to spent too much time on the ground. Poland would also have to plan for offensive strikes against German forward bases and choke points. Without an offensive, and the ability, manpower and tools to perform strikes, the result is OTL.

It's designed to operate from rough fields and roads so the Poles should be able to disperse it. Should I bother developing this little TL a bit more to expand on Polish capabilities?
 
Probably best to skip it.

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I like these kinds of threads, but one concern I have with Poland is that while you could drastically improve their performance, without other PODs it is rather hard to see how they could withstand the Nazi-Soviet two step. In which case, we have just gifted the Nazis at least with some nice kit and the factories to build more! Sort of like with Czechoslovakia
 
I like these kinds of threads, but one concern I have with Poland is that while you could drastically improve their performance, without other PODs it is rather hard to see how they could withstand the Nazi-Soviet two step. In which case, we have just gifted the Nazis at least with some nice kit and the factories to build more! Sort of like with Czechoslovakia

I didn't really intend for this to be a "Poland beats the Nazis" thread, short of borderline ASB it can't really be done. It was more a "Poland inflicts considerably more damage on the Nazis". The Poles did quite well against Germany in OTL considering what they had to work with, here they get a fighter in the same class as the Hurricane, a nice heavy ground attack plane, tanks in the same class as the Panzer III and some more artillery. They also improve their organisation and doctrine to the point of having a semi-blitzkreig style force. It's obviously not enough to kill the Third Reich but it could wound it enough to have serious knock on effects in 1940 and 1941.

Also I don't think the Germans would get much usable stuff from Poland here. Unlike Czechoslovakia they would have to fight their way in, a lot of those 18TP's and P.29's would be destroyed in battle and I can't see the Poles leaving much intact in their armament factories when it becomes apparent that the Germans will capture them.
 
Poland is in an impossible strategic situation no matter what it does. It is in an impossible political position no matter what it does. Poland has to defend its most industrialized sectors by overextending itself, or gaining a better tactical position by what amounts to a strategic disaster. Poland faces a double-war sandwiched between two colossi that intend to destroy it, so it can't even really do the latter.
 
If Poland had used better fefensive positions (not comitting andd losing so much in defending the Borders), it might have lasted a few weeks more - better equipment or not does not really matter.

But as France did not attack on the western front it was doomed...

if ther was an earnest French push early on then Russia might NOT have acted, fearing that after Germanys defeat (Germany virtually had nothing in the West - missing opprtunities by the Allies) it would be driven back...


The Russian army was just not in shape for war 1939 - but maybe the Russians did not know this...
 
I missed the other thread for some reason and have to admit I'm not up to reading right through it but it's inspired me. So here we go.

1930: The Polish government signs a contract with American tank designer Walter Christie for the production and delivery of a single M1928 tank. This arrives in Poland in July..

And how do you plan to avoid the breaking of contract by Christie that happened OTL?

1933: Adolph Hitler comes to power in Germany. The Polish Air Force issues a requirement for a monoplane fighter with a speed of 300 mph and an armament of six 7.92 mm machine guns..

Poland used metric. So no mph, but km/h - in this case 450 most likely.

1935: The prototype PZL P.29 flies. Designed by Zygmunt Pulawski the P.29 is a stressed skin low wing monoplane with wide set retractable undercarriage, powered by a Pratt & Whitney 1050hp engine..

If it's to have P&W engine there needs to be a license bought beforehand. And IIRC by that time Twin Wasp had only 900 hp.

Personally, I think it's more likely to be using Wright Cyclone engine. In 1929 Wright was a front-runner for a license deal, but Bristol was chosen instead. Nobody really knows why...

1936: The first flight of the PZL P.33 ground attack plane. The aircraft is a single seat, stressed skin monoplane powered by a pair of Twin Wasp engines. The plane is fast, agile and well armed with four 20mm Oerlikon FF cannon. It is also armoured.

Uhm. A single seat, 1800+ hp, 4*20mm cannons plane in 1936 only for ground attacks? Very, very unlikely. Overpowered and overarmed. OTL at this time Polish Air Force still flied Breguets XIX...

BTW, designation wouldn't be PZL P.33 - P. was only for either Pulawsky's designs or Pursuit planes. So it'd be rather PZL-33.
 
Poland used metric. So no mph, but km/h - in this case 450 most likely.



If it's to have P&W engine there needs to be a license bought beforehand. And IIRC by that time Twin Wasp had only 900 hp.
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Poland used metric, so don't you mean 671kW?
 
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