A different commander of the Spanish Armada

WI Philip II had given the Duke of Parma a free hand to carry out the invasion of England? What could he have done differently?
 
The Duke of Parma wasn't a Admiral.

I know that. What I mean is WI Parma's plan had been followed instead of the bleding of Parma's and Santa Cruz's plan that was made.

Parma wanted to invade England directly from Flanders, carrying the army in small and fast ships. Santa Cruz wanted to embark the army in Spain in the same kind of ships they used in the Armada and then go directly to England. The plan that was followed was a blendind of these two. They used Santa Cruz's ships, but needed to take Parma's army in Calais.

So, what if the invasion is planned and made exactly as Parma wanted? Could he succesfully reach the English shores using light ships carrying an army? Or the English fleet would beat them before it?
 
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It would have been better if the plan of attacking Ireland from Spain had been performed in combination with a later attack by Parma from Flanders.
 
It would have been better if the plan of attacking Ireland from Spain had been performed in combination with a later attack by Parma from Flanders.

It could work I imagine, although might not the English navy have a decent chance against a small one coming from Flanders.

Of course right now it sounds very smart to take Ireland, but Philip II is not very likely to understand why it's a good idea. He just wants to liberate England from it's heretic queen.

But the POD could be, what if Philip II was the most clever strategist of his time or, WI Philip II had the greatest strategist of his time in his service and was willing to listen to him.

If we somehow end up with independent Ireland and catholic England it would be cool.
 
It could work I imagine, although might not the English navy have a decent chance against a small one coming from Flanders.

Of course right now it sounds very smart to take Ireland, but Philip II is not very likely to understand why it's a good idea. He just wants to liberate England from it's heretic queen.

But the POD could be, what if Philip II was the most clever strategist of his time or, WI Philip II had the greatest strategist of his time in his service and was willing to listen to him.

If we somehow end up with independent Ireland and catholic England it would be cool.
If the Spanish fleet had attacked Ireland landing a decent army there the English fleet would have had to go to Ireland leaving small forces in the channel that could not have been able to stop the invading fleet. Of course the problem were the small dutch ships patroling in the coast...


The idea of invading Ireland was one of the plans Philip II had on his desk, other was the invassion from Flanders and then a combination of both that involved sending a fleet from Spain that would contact with Parma's army. This last one was by far the most complicated and probably the other combination Ireland + attack from Flanders could have been accepted by Philip if only he had listened to his advisors. However this plan had an important problem: Parma's army lacked the heavy siege artillery that the Armada transported and it would have been a bit harder for him to advance without those guns.

Possible POD: make Philip a bit lazier and to trust more in his advisors.
 
How was Parma hoping to get across without being sunk ? IIRC at this period he would have had to wait for favourable weather, but it would not only have been favourable to him but to the English. I realise the English won't all be at sea at one time, but I assume there would be enough vessels about, and near enough the Flanders coast, to give decent warning ? Perhaps Parma was hoping that there would not be ? But with Effingham, Drake et al, this seems, at least in retrospect, a rather BIG hope

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Everytime some a succesful armada comes up, I always wonder about the situation in the Netherlands. With the army of Flanders in England (or Ireland) doesn't that mean that the Spanish lose most if not all the Netherlands. And with the army overseas and a hostile English and Dutch fleet, doesn't that basicly mean that they are trapped in England without reinforcements or supplies?
 
Everytime some a succesful armada comes up, I always wonder about the situation in the Netherlands. With the army of Flanders in England (or Ireland) doesn't that mean that the Spanish lose most if not all the Netherlands. And with the army overseas and a hostile English and Dutch fleet, doesn't that basicly mean that they are trapped in England without reinforcements or supplies?

Wasn't England providing a lot of support to the rebels in the Netherlands, though, with Sidney etc and no doubt financial subsidies ? If England falls, then perhaps any losses in the Netherlands can 'easily' be made good ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It would not have been easy to cross, but with an invassion in Ireland going on not so many ships would have been around the Channel and Parma would have had an opportunity of crossing without many loses. How long would it take to cross? The problem would have been the dutch ships.

As for the situation in Flanders, the United Provinces were considering giving up. They were at their lowest and the english help was anything but helpful (in fact english commanders were very fond of changing sides for a price in gold), and the invassion of England would have seen by then as a tremendous blow on the only power that was supporting them. They would have sued for peace for sure.
 
But, if the Armada is succesful, and being Mary Queen of Scots dead, who would be the English monarch? Or Philip II would claim the throne for himself?
 

MrP

Banned
But, if the Armada is succesful, and being Mary Queen of Scots dead, who would be the English monarch? Or Philip II would claim the throne for himself?

I think there's mention in Justin Pickard's GURPS thread of a Catholic aristocrat, Henry Percy, being made king after a successful Spanish Armada. He might be a good starting point.
 
Parma opposed the Armada entirely.

He knew that there was no chance his army would be able to get past the English and Dutch fleets, as the leaders of the Armada finally learned on the spot in 1588, and was horrified that his army was not only forced to simply wait 18 months for the Armada to arrive, just as they had won some useful victories in the Netherlands, but starved of supplies and pay for that entire period.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
It would not have been easy to cross, but with an invassion in Ireland going on not so many ships would have been around the Channel and Parma would have had an opportunity of crossing without many loses. How long would it take to cross? The problem would have been the dutch ships.

As for the situation in Flanders, the United Provinces were considering giving up. They were at their lowest and the english help was anything but helpful (in fact english commanders were very fond of changing sides for a price in gold), and the invassion of England would have seen by then as a tremendous blow on the only power that was supporting them. They would have sued for peace for sure.

Considered giving up? Not on the terms the Spanish were wiling to give. A invasion of England would have helped the Estates-Generals. Not only the Army of Flandres would have gone away, their commander Parma as well. This would be fantastic for the rebellion.

Besides, what happens with the Dutch fleet? It suddenly disappears?
 
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