A different 19th century Netherlands

Why not at the congress of Vienna, take the kingdom of Holland ( as it was under Louis Bonaparte) with some addtions as Cleve, Bentheim, Overmaas, Gelre and a bit of Julich, completed with some lands between to make it more smooth, as Pompeus presented topled with the Provinces of the Austrian Netherlands, Brabant,
/Antwerpen, Flandres, Limbourg after Waterloo France have to ceded France Flanders including Lile but can keep Hainaut and Namen. Luxembourg foes to Prussia and the province of Liege will be split between Prussia, France and the Netherlands.

Sizable Kingdom, having its internal difficulties, which countries doesn't, emerging industry, and some nice start points for a future colonial empire. In short, not a Great power but certainly not a minor one. Definitely a broker nation which can tip the balance of power if it chose a side.
 
south-africa was arather important issue, and pacifying only applied for ceylon/sri lanka. it doesn't apply to south-africa, which saw a strange succession of being taken by the british, given back, and finally taken again.
the issue S.A. is not lightly forgotten.

Which means it can be a big point of compromise if the Dutch push its importance
 
Which means it can be a big point of compromise if the Dutch push its importance

A real Dutch settler colony during the 19th century,would be a nice butterfly.
Since population grew and with more people sliding in poverty than the developing industry can absorb, it could be an alternative for the USA for the poor stricken pessants from Flanders, Brabant Zeeland and Gelre
 
Sorry to object but Luxembourg was a compensation to the House of Orange-Nassau for the loss of the German lands of Nassau. Hence Luxembourg was only in personal union with the rest of the kingdom of the Netherlands.
It may be true that Luxemburg was compensation for the loss of Nassau, the reason that Luxemburg was in personal union with the Netherlands, instead of being directly part of the kingdom was because both Prussia and the Netherlands wanted control of Luxemburg. So if Prussia gains Luxemburg and the Netherlands gains East-Frisia, Cleves and the other parts I mentioned, it will become a part of the Netherlands and not some made up country in personal union with the Netherlands.

Also, although I consider it possible that the Netherlands regains the Cape colony with a POD in 1800, you realy need some big changes. Get rid of king Louis for example. His apointment was the major reason the Dutch lost the Cape colony (before the Cape Colony was part of the Batavian Republic). Maybe if Napoleon decides to directly annex the Netherlands instead of giving it to his brother, but that would mean that the Netherlands wouldn't have some sort of claim to East-Frisia.

Oh and as I said, I don't think Louis is the key for a larger post-Napoleonic Netherlands. I doubt the Britsh would trust a Napoleon on any European throne and I certainly doubt that they would give any more lands to him. Most likely they would either simply replace him with an Orange-Nassau, or at best he would remain king of just Holland (as in the kingdom of Holland, not the province), probably even without East-Frisia. Belgium (and Limburg) would most likely go to Prussia in such a situation. And yeah, he would still lose South Africa and there is a good chance that he would lose even more colonies than that.
 
just a thought, the cleves area borders nassau, would it be possible for them to retain nassau too?
 
just a thought, the cleves area borders nassau, would it be possible for them to retain nassau too?
Actualy, according to this map, it doesn't. Mind you, if Willem I manages to keep Nassau, the chances of him getting more lands is less likely. Unless you can make him an important ally during the late napoleonic wars.
 
Actualy, according to this map, it doesn't. Mind you, if Willem I manages to keep Nassau, the chances of him getting more lands is less likely. Unless you can make him an important ally during the late napoleonic wars.

my wrong, i was thinking of grand duchy of berg during the rhinebund (which included cleve)
 
Looking again at the first maps, A Netherlands like this include a part of the Rhur river which is one of the first industrial area's of Europe. Further it include coal fields in this German lands and in the Limburg province ( both OTL Belgium and Dutch). Coupled with Textile industry cities as Ghent and a large port as Antwerp how will this Kingdom evolve?
 
Looking again at the first maps, A Netherlands like this include a part of the Rhur river which is one of the first industrial area's of Europe. Further it include coal fields in this German lands and in the Limburg province ( both OTL Belgium and Dutch). Coupled with Textile industry cities as Ghent and a large port as Antwerp how will this Kingdom evolve?
It does not include a large part. If we just use this map as an example of the areas the Netherlands would get, it just the light blue areas (Prussian Cleves, Guelders and Moers) and some areas connecting them to avoid exclaves and encleves (for example that northern part of the bishopric of Cologne and the lordship of Hörstgen). It would include only a small part of the Ruhr area. Still, after checking the internet, it seems to include some coaldeposits. It would certainly help the Dutch industrialisation (which was very needed OTL, the Netherlands was one of the last European countries to industrialise). It would still not be on the level of OTL Germany or Belgium though. This Netherlands probably would be better of economicaly than OTL was (which to be fair is not that hard, the 19th and early 20th century was not a good time for the Netherlands).

Also it would be interesting how Antwerp and Rotterdam develop. Both are excelent places for ports. I think both could find their own place. Rotterdam supplying Germany and the east, partly through the Rhine, while Antwerp supplying France and the south, using the Schelde.
 
It does not include a large part. If we just use this map as an example of the areas the Netherlands would get, it just the light blue areas (Prussian Cleves, Guelders and Moers) and some areas connecting them to avoid exclaves and encleves (for example that northern part of the bishopric of Cologne and the lordship of Hörstgen). It would include only a small part of the Ruhr area. Still, after checking the internet, it seems to include some coaldeposits. It would certainly help the Dutch industrialisation (which was very needed OTL, the Netherlands was one of the last European countries to industrialise). It would still not be on the level of OTL Germany or Belgium though. This Netherlands probably would be better of economicaly than OTL was (which to be fair is not that hard, the 19th and early 20th century was not a good time for the Netherlands).

Also it would be interesting how Antwerp and Rotterdam develop. Both are excelent places for ports. I think both could find their own place. Rotterdam supplying Germany and the east, partly through the Rhine, while Antwerp supplying France and the south, using the Schelde.

Thanks for the map, I understand only Cleve West of the Rhine and Gelre and Moers?
Ghent and other Flemish cities had a large emerging textile industry, revitalizing this old textile cities which exported via Antwerp. Coal or any other source of energy is a bonus for industrialization but, the industrial revolution is more than steam engines. Most of the industrial revolution was based on a concentration of labor and production which could be textile, glassware and pottery. All this are available whitin the boundaries of the nation you describe.
Antwerp was booming during the era of the united kingdom of the Netherlands but declined dramatically after the Belgium independence the same count for Ghent. Antwerp will grow uninterrupted, beside economic crises. Rotterdam will follow later during the 19th century especial when industry in Germany along the Ruhr expanded and the connection towards the sea improves.
The colonies or overseas possessions what ever they might be, after the congress of Vienna prove excelent markets for products form Ghent and other cities.
 
Thanks for the map, I understand only Cleve West of the Rhine and Gelre and Moers?
Around the Ruhr? Yes. Although I would love to want the Dutch more, I don't want it to be unrealistic and it quickly becomes unrealistic. The German areas (who also include East-Frisia and such) are, at least in my head, compensation for the Netherlands "losing" Luxemburg (and eastern Liege and Namur). So it must be roughly equal to those.

Ghent and other Flemish cities had a large emerging textile industry, revitalizing this old textile cities which exported via Antwerp. Coal or any other source of energy is a bonus for industrialization but, the industrial revolution is more than steam engines. Most of the industrial revolution was based on a concentration of labor and production which could be textile, glassware and pottery. All this are available whitin the boundaries of the nation you describe.
Antwerp was booming during the era of the united kingdom of the Netherlands but declined dramatically after the Belgium independence the same count for Ghent. Antwerp will grow uninterrupted, beside economic crises. Rotterdam will follow later during the 19th century especial when industry in Germany along the Ruhr expanded and the connection towards the sea improves.
The colonies or overseas possessions what ever they might be, after the congress of Vienna prove excelent markets for products form Ghent and other cities.

I think Flanders remaining Dutch would be a big boon for both Flanders and the Netherlands.

About those colonial possessions, I think we must look toward OTL to see what they would be. So no Cape colony, unless you use an early POD and change quite a lot (like no kingdom of Holland). No Dutch Congo, since the Netherlands would focus on what they already got (a Dutch Goldcoast could be possible though). Colonisation mainly focusing on Indonesia (so the Netherlands will probably still trade away Malacca and Dutch India for British Indonesia). But Dutch Borneo is possible and a possible small expansion into Oceania, if the Dutch can pacify/control/claim Indonesia early enough.
 
how about a pod where louis napoleon changes sides?
First of all I don't think he would. He doesn't seem the person to do such a thing. In actuality he wasn't such a good king anyway. We just remember him fondly because the Batavian Republic and the last days of the united Provinces was terrible and of the first three kings of the Netherlands only one was reasonably competent and that was the guy who lost Belgium. Louis Napoleon wasn't a great leader amongst others, he was a mediocre leader surrounded by incompetent ones.

Second of all I don't think he would be able to enlarge the Netherlands. I doubt the allies would trust a Napoleon after the wars.
 
First of all I don't think he would. He doesn't seem the person to do such a thing. In actuality he wasn't such a good king anyway. We just remember him fondly because the Batavian Republic and the last days of the united Provinces was terrible and of the first three kings of the Netherlands only one was reasonably competent and that was the guy who lost Belgium. Louis Napoleon wasn't a great leader amongst others, he was a mediocre leader surrounded by incompetent ones.

Second of all I don't think he would be able to enlarge the Netherlands. I doubt the allies would trust a Napoleon after the wars.

Not suggesting that he stays king of the netherlands, but more a case of saving his own skin. he changes sides because he thinks he will get a better deal that way.
And L-N did oppose his brother, stalling/delaying his orders, to the point that Nap thought it necessary to remove him.
 
Not suggesting that he stays king of the netherlands, but more a case of saving his own skin. he changes sides because he thinks he will get a better deal that way.
And L-N did oppose his brother, stalling/delaying his orders, to the point that Nap thought it necessary to remove him.
There is a very big difference to stalling orders and actualy switching sides. Defecting to the enemie is a very big step, most would make, especialy if it concerns your brother. Also, if Louis Napoleon switches sides, he knows he would not be able to defend his country. It means he must flee to England, lose everything he has and is in very big trouble if his brother wins the war. Basicly, I don't think it will happen. Or I don't think it is necesary to happen.
 
Around the Ruhr? Yes. Although I would love to want the Dutch more, I don't want it to be unrealistic and it quickly becomes unrealistic. The German areas (who also include East-Frisia and such) are, at least in my head, compensation for the Netherlands "losing" Luxemburg (and eastern Liege and Namur). So it must be roughly equal to those.



I think Flanders remaining Dutch would be a big boon for both Flanders and the Netherlands.

About those colonial possessions, I think we must look toward OTL to see what they would be. So no Cape colony, unless you use an early POD and change quite a lot (like no kingdom of Holland). No Dutch Congo, since the Netherlands would focus on what they already got (a Dutch Goldcoast could be possible though). Colonisation mainly focusing on Indonesia (so the Netherlands will probably still trade away Malacca and Dutch India for British Indonesia). But Dutch Borneo is possible and a possible small expansion into Oceania, if the Dutch can pacify/control/claim Indonesia early enough.

I agree, Cape colony is a very large butterfly. Doesn't matter, if there are some adventurous entrepreneurs they might set up a trade post with the 'voortrekker' republics in Natal or even Delagoa bay (Mozambique) before 1850 as a start point into Africa.
Gold coast can become a stage point for a larger West African 'protectorate' if the former slave forts were more successful in setting up a plantation economy and the Dutch did not switch their forts with the British in 1855 resulting in the complete sell of in 1870.
Agree Dutch Congo is strange since it is was een OTL private project of one man, Congo is more for France, Portugal or UK.
 
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