A different 19th century Netherlands

Nice idea.
I think Louis Bonaparte stand up against his big brother the Emperor. Struck some deal with the British and later Austrians. Napoleon losses his empire but his younger brother Louis is rewarded with a kingdom by the Great Powers.

So Napoleon III become King of Holland, instead of Emperor of France?
 
Any ideas of butterflies during the 19th century?
With Flanders and Limburg and German lands it is still a large country with industry and coal deposits, and a relative large colonial empire.
 
if the british are more willing towards the dutch, maybe the netherlands keeps south-africa/ceylon/ all of guyana?

they at least have more manpower available for the colonies
and considering the otl european mainland industrial revolution started around the coal in belgium, i could imagine a earlier industrial revolution for the whole of the netherlands?
 
Assuming it doesn't fall apart like the OTL United Netherlands, maybe King Louis I of the Netherlands is more prone to compromise and won't favor the Northern Netherlands as much as our OTL Monarchs.

Then the Netherlands could become respectable power, holding Indonesia, Suriname and the Dutch West Indies. As well as a larger slice of Africa. Assuming something like the Berlin Conference happens.

German nationalism may eventually pull the eastern parts of the Netherlands back into Germany. But it doesn't necessarily have to happen.

With a greater industrial potential the Netherlands its economy will skyrocket and if it remains united it WILL be an economic powerhouse. Not as much as Germany, France or the UK. But at least not the third rate power it was in OTL.

This Netherlands may have to pick a side in a WWI equivalent, which is a whole other story to tackle.
 
wiki has a clear picture of how it shifted

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans-Vlaams (in dutch)
Personaly I think this is the best article I found about the linguistic situation in nw-France. It is written in Dutch though by someone from the university of Ghent. Quite interesting. Apparently Calais was multilingual until the 16th century. Artois though spoke French.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/ryck002nede01_01/ryck002nede01_01_0017.php

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/ryck002nede01_01/ryck002nede01_01_0014.php#14
 
if the british are more willing towards the dutch, maybe the netherlands keeps south-africa/ceylon/ all of guyana?

they at least have more manpower available for the colonies
and considering the otl european mainland industrial revolution started around the coal in belgium, i could imagine a earlier industrial revolution for the whole of the netherlands?

South Africa could be very well possible in exchange of very favorable trade and landing rights for the British, but I doubt Ceylon since the UK made, during the Napoleonic era, large efforts to pacify the island ( read bloody war of conquest of the interior)
Guyana is possible but English plantation companies, invited by the former WIC during the 18th century, feared the return of the corrupt and incapable rule of the WIC and there for stated a lobby to be come part of the British empire.

Colonization, as in profit centers, like trade post it does not matter how large to population base is. Profit colonies were run with a minimal European occupation. So there is no limitation for a Netherlands.
The industrial revolution on the European continent also started in the textile factories of Ghent and other Flemish textile cities. Coal was later found in Limburg (OTL Belgium and Dutch)
 
south-africa is the one colony that has a big chance not being run as a profit colony. if was the pressure of the local plantations owners in guyana, then i consider it small change in negotiations, it probably would have a huge imporatnce to the british then, but on the other hand, if they are more willing, they hand french guyana over as exchange?
 
Sorry, I have more time now!

Russia. If you have both Prussia and France at a loss here, then IMHO you are looking at a Russia ascendant scenario, perhaps pulling Britain's bacon out of the fire so they acquiesce

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Sorry, I have more time now!

Russia. If you have both Prussia and France at a loss here, then IMHO you are looking at a Russia ascendant scenario, perhaps pulling Britain's bacon out of the fire so they acquiesce

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Another possibility would be a more successful Austria. Or probably having both Russia and Austria preform better, or give them the chance to do better.
 
Sorry, I have more time now!

Russia. If you have both Prussia and France at a loss here, then IMHO you are looking at a Russia ascendant scenario, perhaps pulling Britain's bacon out of the fire so they acquiesce

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

maybe things between the later willem II and Anna Pavlovna start just a little earlier, resulting in some extra motivation for the russian to support the netherlands during congress of vienna?
 
Ok, how about this idea:

POD:somewhere during the Napoleonic wars. Talleyrand dies and France is harder punished than it was OTL during the Vienna congress. France loses departement Nord, Corsica and the northern part of Lorraine. Besides northern Lorraine, Prussia also gains all of Luxemburg, and a large part of the Bishopric of Liege (basicly Luxemburg, the Belgian province of Luxemburg and the eastern parts of the Namur and Liege provinces). Since the king of the Netherlands hoped to gain all ofthe southern Netherlands, he gets compensated by East Frisia, Cleves, etc (I think Prussia would prefer the southern Rhineland over it anyway).

Ok, so we have a Netherlands that contains all of what I asked, but also include the Walloon areas. Like OTL there exists dissatisfaction in the southern Netherlands, especialy the Walloon areas. Since they are a more clear minority the revolt is less succesful and the Northern Netherlands manages to keep control of those areas. Anyway, the disatisfaction continues and in the end the parts that have a Francophone majority seceeds, possibly because of French influences. They probably join France, who also has regained Corsica, the same way it got Nice and Savoy OTL.
 
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Ok, how about this idea:

POD:somewhere during the Napoleonic wars. Talleyrand dies and France is harder punished than it was OTL during the Vienna congress. France loses departement Nord, Corsica and the northern part of Lorraine. Besides northern Lorraine, Prussia also gains all of Luxemburg, and a large part of the Bishopric of Liege (basicly Luxemburg, the Belgian province of Luxemburg and the eastern parts of the Namur and Liege provinces). Since the king of the Netherlands hoped to gain all ofthe southern Netherlands, he gets compensated by East Frisia, Cleves, etc (I think Prussia would prefer the southern Rhineland over it anyway).

Ok, so we have a Netherlands that contains all of what I asked, but also include the Walloon areas. Like OTL there exists dissatisfaction in the southern Netherlands, especialy the Walloon areas. Since they are a more clear minority the revolt is less succesful and the Northern Netherlands manages to keep control of those areas. Anyway, the disatisfaction continues and in the end the parts that have a Francophobe majority seceeds, possibly because of French influences. They probably join France, who also has regained Corsica, the same way it got Nice and Savoy OTL.



sounds reasonable, otl the revolution got a lot of support from luxemburg.

but since luxemburg is in personal union with the netherlands (and being not just a contested area) i think east-frisia+cleves wouldn't compensate, i expect them also to ask for the area called Berg in the rhinebund(cleve + extra territory). the whole issue is the german bund, in otl lux stayed in personal union with NL but became a member of the german bund.
i think in order to gain lux, prussia has to do some major concessions.
although the gained territory might stay a member of the bund
however otl they decided not to punish france too hard, if that changes, the moment france will try to rise again there is also a chance that it will be cut down again swiftly


i do not see the dissatisfied areas to secede, if they try they get beaten down again. if france tries to push that issue it will only lead to another war.
Francophobe majority seceeds.
i suspect you mean francophone ;)


edit: map of the rheinbund 1808 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Rheinbund_1808%2C_political_map.png/800px-Rheinbund_1808%2C_political_map.png
the areas in expect to be claimed are Berg, Aremberg and ost-friesland in this map (aremberg for logical border) (but also with demand that they stay in the bund)
 
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but since luxemburg is in personal union with the netherlands (and being not just a contested area) i think east-frisia+cleves wouldn't compensate, i expect them also to ask for the area called Berg in the rhinebund(cleve + extra territory). the whole issue is the german bund, in otl lux stayed in personal union with NL but became a member of the german bund.
The only reason why Luxemburg was in personal union with the Netherlands was because both Prussia and the Netherlands wanted Luxemburg. The personal union was basicly a compromise between the Netherlands and Prussia so that both could have influence over Luxemburg, The Netherlands through the union and Prussia through the German Confederation. In my scenario I don't think Prussia would force a Personal union for some rather unimportant areas.



i do not see the dissatisfied areas to secede, if they try they get beaten down again. if france tries to push that issue it will only lead to another war.

Ok, in that case I need a better way to get rid of those areas. Although, to be fair, I think a referendum in or around the middle of the 20th century would probably work. But since I said I wanted them not part of the Netherlands in 1900, I need to think of a better way.


i suspect you mean francophone ;)

I was talking about Belgians, don't they hate the French as much as they hate the Dutch? Ok, maybe I misstyped.
 
The only reason why Luxemburg was in personal union with the Netherlands was because both Prussia and the Netherlands wanted Luxemburg. The personal union was basicly a compromise between the Netherlands and Prussia so that both could have influence over Luxemburg, The Netherlands through the union and Prussia through the German Confederation. In my scenario I don't think Prussia would force a Personal union for some rather unimportant areas.





Ok, in that case I need a better way to get rid of those areas. Although, to be fair, I think a referendum in or around the middle of the 20th century would probably work. But since I said I wanted them not part of the Netherlands in 1900, I need to think of a better way.




I was talking about Belgians, don't they hate the French as much as they hate the Dutch? Ok, maybe I misstyped.

Sorry to object but Luxembourg was a compensation to the House of Orange-Nassau for the loss of the German lands of Nassau. Hence Luxembourg was only in personal union with the rest of the kingdom of the Netherlands.
Prussia, Austria and Russia had much more inserted than only the former Austrian Netherlands. Prussia was far more interested in foremr kingdom of Saxony and there Rhine holdings while Russia wanted more of Galicia. If you want to have a large or different united Netherlands you need to see it in a more broader picture.
I like the idea of a dead Taylerant.
I can not recall that the Belgian revolt was popular in Luxembourg as it was in Brussels and Liege.

A major thinking error, if to put it this way, is the language question. The language dispute in OTL Belgium is solely the result of the language policy since the Belgian independence, where the Dutch became marginalized by the French speaking upper class making French the only official language of the government in all its levels.
The French language is not bound to a territory. In the 19th century and even up to the 20th century French was the preferred language of the upper class and of the Catholic clergy. French was also spoken by the upper class in the Protestant North.
If a united kingdom, with the French provinces survives a social unrest in the 1830ties the language difference will be minor compared to religious differences which will emerge.
If it stays united, the French will be recognized as official language of the Waloon provinces as in OTL. There will be a labor emigration of Dutch speaking people to the industry areas in Waloon. In OTL they influenced the French, but it remained Frenc,h since it was the official language of Belgium. In a united Netherlands French will only be the official language of the Waloon Provinces, which give a possibility that the Waloon provinces with a high migration from the North will gradually change in Dutch speaking provinces. A reversed move of the language border as in OTL happen with Brussels.
 
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Assuming it doesn't fall apart like the OTL United Netherlands, maybe King Louis I of the Netherlands is more prone to compromise and won't favor the Northern Netherlands as much as our OTL Monarchs.

Then the Netherlands could become respectable power, holding Indonesia, Suriname and the Dutch West Indies. As well as a larger slice of Africa. Assuming something like the Berlin Conference happens.

German nationalism may eventually pull the eastern parts of the Netherlands back into Germany. But it doesn't necessarily have to happen.

With a greater industrial potential the Netherlands its economy will skyrocket and if it remains united it WILL be an economic powerhouse. Not as much as Germany, France or the UK. But at least not the third rate power it was in OTL.

This Netherlands may have to pick a side in a WWI equivalent, which is a whole other story to tackle.

That are nice thoughts, any more?
 
Lets not wank the Netherlands too much here; I suggest dropping South Africa in favour of mainland gains. Imagine the Dutch being more adamant about retrieving their colonial empire. Britain doesnt want to give back what its spent a decade or two pacifying, so decides to bribe the King with some other concessions, while weakening france - Calais comes to mind. Maybe they even support the gains in Germany in turn for Luxembourg with Prussia?

Id say the Dutch could definitely use this strong backer should they go for this.



On the other hand, imagine the King giving into Republic sentiment before the Walloonian revolt? IIRC, that revolt was as much inspired by Willem's absolutism as by the nationalist tendencies... give them their constitution and only the French Walloonians remain pissed.
 
south-africa was arather important issue, and pacifying only applied for ceylon/sri lanka. it doesn't apply to south-africa, which saw a strange succession of being taken by the british, given back, and finally taken again.
the issue S.A. is not lightly forgotten.
 
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