A different 19th century Netherlands

So with a POD of around 1800, is it possible to have a Netherlands in (lets say) 1900 that consists out of the following territories?

-All of the current Netherlands
Obviously

-All of Flanders

-Brussels
I mention this, as it is technically not part of Flanders

-The northern parts of Wallonia in which a Dutch dialect was still spoken in the early 19th century

- The French Westhoek

Basicly the Dunkirk area of French Flanders

- East Frisia and Jevers
Both were part of the Kingdom of Holland after all

- The County of Lingen
Which had been Dutch until stadholder William III died and Prussia inherited it. According to the Dutch wikipedia they still spoke Dutch until the early 20th century

- The Country of Bentheim and the Emsland up to East Frisia
To create a land bridge towards Lingen and to make the Dutch borders up to of East-Frisia less ridiculous

- The country of Moers
Just like Lingen it used to be Dutch until William III died

- The county of Cleves
They spoke (or even speak?) a Dutch dialect there

- all of Gelders Overkwartier
Most of it became Dutch in 1815, but some remained Prussian

- all of de lands of Overmaas
The green, red and purple parts of the map (but not the yellowish parts) Most became Dutch in 1815 (or earlier), but some didn't and some ended up Belgian a couple of decades later

-Some border areas that are need to connect these lands, so we don't have any exclaves or enclaves and so the borders don't look too ridiculous.

- This Netherlands is not allowed to have (more of) Wallonia or Luxemburg

A couple of other things. This Netherlands must be independent (so it can not be part of some German confederation or be a minor country in a personal union or whatever). This Netherlands can't have any (major) seperative movements. Other, neighbouring countries aren't allowed to have major (Alsace-Lorraine-like) claims on the Netherlands. It must be generaly accepted that these are the borders of the Netherlands.

So is it possible to create such a Netherlands and if so, how?
 
so to be clear, the can not have moresnet, i ask because it was contested at the time due to its zinc mine
 
this is a map of the spread of dutch

the mid green being areas that were dutch language in the past, light green where dutch was widely spoken
640px-Verbreitungsgebiet_des_Niederländischen.PNG
 
so to be clear, the can not have moresnet, i ask because it was contested at the time due to its zinc mine
It is kind of a cornercase. You could in theory claim they spoke a Dutch accent. So, maybe. You could make it easier for the Dutch to give it (and Luxemburg) to Prussia, so the Netherlands can gain some Prussian areas.


this is a map of the spread of dutch

the mid green being areas that were dutch language in the past, light green where dutch was widely spoken
I believe my borders include most of the Dutch speaking areas around the early 19th century, which (I will admit) was what inspired the idea.
 
most of these territories in germany are prussian, so you need to find reason why prussia let go of them.

either a change during the Napoleonic wars, or the prusso-AH war goes wrong for prussia.
 
Nice idea.
I think Louis Bonaparte stand up against his big brother the Emperor. Struck some deal with the British and later Austrians. Napoleon losses his empire but his younger brother Louis is rewarded with a kingdom by the Great Powers.
I like the idea to restoer all of Flanders but I do not see an objection to give all of Brabant, not only Brussles, to the new kingdom,and why not all of former Austrian/Spanish Netherlands.
 
most of these territories in germany are prussian, so you need to find reason why prussia let go of them.

either a change during the Napoleonic wars, or the prusso-AH war goes wrong for prussia.
I think some change in the late Napoleonic wars is better. Maybe somehow making Prussia less crucial in defeating Napoleon, so it gains less territory? Or maybe the Netherlands "gives" Luxemburg and part of Namur and Liege province to Prussia in exchange for Cleves and East-Frisia?

Nice idea.
I think Louis Bonaparte stand up against his big brother the Emperor. Struck some deal with the British and later Austrians. Napoleon losses his empire but his younger brother Louis is rewarded with a kingdom by the Great Powers.
I do realise I tried to create a timeline about it once, but the more I think about it, the less realistic I think it is. Not only do I doubt that Britain would accept a Napoleon as king of the Netherlands, I believe that king Louis was not the man to betray his brother. He might try to rule his country the best he could do, while ignoring his brother, but actualt betray him? No, I doubt that.

I like the idea to restoer all of Flanders but I do not see an objection to give all of Brabant, not only Brussles, to the new kingdom,and why not all of former Austrian/Spanish Netherlands.

Why?, first of all, because this idea started as a thought experiment to get an as big as possible Dutch speaking country in the 19th century. Secondly, because I think that the Netherlands would be better of and more stable without the French/Walloon speaking regions. Without the Walloon regions the Belgian revolt could have been more easily controled or possibly even be avoided. With only Dutch speaking regions any linguistic struggle would be avoided. It would heve been easier to create a national identity. I don't think that the coal would have been worth the trouble.

i made a quick map, i guess the dark blue line is estimated wanted border?

I created this (very rough map) that is closer to my suggestion. It includes a lot less of Germany than you suggestion.

Verbreitungsgebiet_des_Niederländischen.PNG
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that these are the core problems:

How can the Netherlands gain so much German territory?

How can the Netherlands gain Flanders, but not gain (or lose) Wallonia?

How can the Netherlands gain the French Westhoek/Dunkirk?

I believe that for all these points there is some solution, but combining them makes it hard. For example, gaining the German territories would be doable, if the Netherlands gives up (an extended) Luxemburg to Prussia. But that leaves the rest of Wallonia. Without Luxemburg and possibly a large part of Liege and Namur province, what would happen to the rest of Wallonia? In OTL Vienna congress, I doubt France would be allowed to keep it and if France would be allowed to keep it, there is no reason for France to lose Dunkirk. Also, I think that without Liege, and Luxemburg the Belgian revolution would be very different and probably more easy to beat, which would mean the Dutch keep the Walloon parts, or if it is less succesful than OTL, there would be a good chance that the Netherlands would still lose Brussels.
 
the big problem is east-frisia/jever/emsland, they are part of hannover.

the prussian parts in the south might be possible in exchange for luxemburg


gain french westhoek - has to be part of a french defeat, i don't see france swapping the westhoek for wallonia.
 
the big problem is east-frisia/jever/emsland, they are part of hannover.
No they are not. At least not if you look pre-Vienna. East-Frisia used to be Prussian, but was gained by Hannover during the Vienna negotiations. You just need a a pre-Vienna POD.


gain french westhoek - has to be part of a french defeat, i don't see france swapping the westhoek for wallonia.
Dunkirk has often been suggested for the Netherlands in a more succesful French Waterloo campaign, in which France managed to beat the Ango-Prussian forces, but was beaten by the Austro-Russian forces later.
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that these are the core problems:

How can the Netherlands gain so much German territory?

How can the Netherlands gain Flanders, but not gain (or lose) Wallonia?

How can the Netherlands gain the French Westhoek/Dunkirk?

I believe that for all these points there is some solution, but combining them makes it hard. For example, gaining the German territories would be doable, if the Netherlands gives up (an extended) Luxemburg to Prussia. But that leaves the rest of Wallonia. Without Luxemburg and possibly a large part of Liege and Namur province, what would happen to the rest of Wallonia? In OTL Vienna congress, I doubt France would be allowed to keep it and if France would be allowed to keep it, there is no reason for France to lose Dunkirk. Also, I think that without Liege, and Luxemburg the Belgian revolution would be very different and probably more easy to beat, which would mean the Dutch keep the Walloon parts, or if it is less succesful than OTL, there would be a good chance that the Netherlands would still lose Brussels.

I assume history had its course as we know it, including french revolution and Napoleontic era?

How can the Netherlands gain so much German territory?
I think all German lands at the congress of Vienna.
East Frissia was annexed by Prussia in 174 and Bentheim was part of Hanover as a result of a debt agreement in 1740?. Cleve will be different, but can be part of an agreement between Prussia and the other Great Powers, Austria and Russia. Prussia desired Saxony and could made a deal with Russia, which would anger Metternich form Austria who could reduce the Rhine possessions of Prussia.

How can the Netherlands gain Flanders, but not gain (or lose) Wallonia?
Difficult, in the early 19th century borders were still made regardless of language or cultural identity of the population but still along medieval borders of counties, fiefdoms and church lands. So it will be all or nothing of the Austrian Netherlands. An other solution will be an other border change in 1815 after the final defeat of Napoleon. IN 1815 a part of France around Philippe-ville was added to the Netherlands, instead of this it could be French Flanders. See orange part in map.

One remark, the Franco-Dutch language border as presented in many maps is a 20th century thing. The language border shifted North over the centuries. Arras=Atrecht was Dutch/neder-Diets until the 17th century.
Example the river Somme in Dutch is Zoom which means border.

quatre5.jpg
 
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By the way, an idea of the OTL future King William of the Netherlands and his proposal at the congress of Vienna.
Just as a side show.

quatre2.jpg
 
To get the borders you want, I'd say you need a PoD in the age of nationalism. Maybe Napoleonic France succeeds in keeping the Netherlands and the Rhine border at the start of the 19th Century, and later on the French collapse in the WW1 analogue of the TL. So the Netherlands emerge as a nationalist revolt, like OTL's Poland, filling the power vacuum left by the collapse.

fasquardon
 
I assume history had its course as we know it, including french revolution and Napoleontic era?
Yes, the POD should be around 1800 or later.

One remark, the Franco-Dutch language border as presented in many maps is a 20th century thing. The language border shifted North over the centuries. Arras=Atrecht was Dutch/neder-Diets until the 17th century.
Example the river Somme in Dutch is Zoom which means border.
Are you sure about that? Yes, the language border has been slowly moving north (and actualy still is moving north around Brussels), but not that much. Yes Calais and Artois were part of the Dutch speaking areas in the early middle ages, but I am fairly certain that they spoke a Romance language in the 17th century. At least all the sources I could find say so. The fact that they have Dutch names does not mean they actualy spoke Dutch. Antwerp and The Hague have French names and I am certain they do not or did speak French (besides the upper classes).
 
Yes, the POD should be around 1800 or later.


Are you sure about that? Yes, the language border has been slowly moving north (and actualy still is moving north around Brussels), but not that much. Yes Calais and Artois were part of the Dutch speaking areas in the early middle ages, but I am fairly certain that they spoke a Romance language in the 17th century. At least all the sources I could find say so. The fact that they have Dutch names does not mean they actualy spoke Dutch. Antwerp and The Hague have French names and I am certain they do not or did speak French (besides the upper classes).

Pretty sure about that.
But that does not matter any more in 1800.
In stead of contemplating how the borders as you proposed were created I think it is more interesting think how a Netherlands,, with your borders, will evolve during the 19th century.
Limburg ( the complete province) will have large coal deposits.
Ghent and Aalst are developing large textile industry. Antwerp and her port will soon eclipse Amsterdam.
Lots of other butterflies?
 
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The linguistic line did gradually move north, although I believe this was more the case in France than Belgium - the Walloon areas have always been Romance-speaking if I'm not mistaken. With the exception of Brussels (which went from being predominantly Dutch-speaking to French-speaking), I don't think Belgium has changed that much linguistically over the past several centuries.
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that these are the core problems:

How can the Netherlands gain so much German territory?

How can the Netherlands gain Flanders, but not gain (or lose) Wallonia?

How can the Netherlands gain the French Westhoek/Dunkirk?

I believe that for all these points there is some solution, but combining them makes it hard. For example, gaining the German territories would be doable, if the Netherlands gives up (an extended) Luxemburg to Prussia. But that leaves the rest of Wallonia. Without Luxemburg and possibly a large part of Liege and Namur province, what would happen to the rest of Wallonia? In OTL Vienna congress, I doubt France would be allowed to keep it and if France would be allowed to keep it, there is no reason for France to lose Dunkirk. Also, I think that without Liege, and Luxemburg the Belgian revolution would be very different and probably more easy to beat, which would mean the Dutch keep the Walloon parts, or if it is less succesful than OTL, there would be a good chance that the Netherlands would still lose Brussels.
If France loses - say - Corsica, I can perfectly well see most of Wallonia being awarded to it as compensation. And since this Corsica/Wallonia trade-off is in France's benefit, the British would love to see them lose Dunkirk since it's a port near England.

Some other points:

If some of these in-German gains are organized as a German grand-duchy in personal union with the Netherlands it would smooth the deal. That and what you say: a Prussian Luxembourg.

As it's been pointed out - even though it's your goal here - the rational for drawing the borders shouldn't be linguistic in origin. So the Dutch getting Dunkirk makes sense from a non-linguistic point of view since it's reuniting Flanders but using the Brabantian language border is harder to pull. I'd propose an integral Brabant, be it French or Dutch.
 
I agree with above.
The Southern border would be along the lines of the provinces. So the France would get the Provinces Hainaut, Liege, Namour. Don't know who will get the Duchy of Luxembourg,, my best guess is Prussia as part of their future Rhine province. The German lands will be exchanged with other territories. Hanover will get some counties close to Mecklenburg/Oldenburg or Denmark and Prussia would get the highly desired Saxony or a part of it.
 
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