A different 1914

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by T-Mag 3004, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:52 AM.

  1. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    Hey again everyone!

    Time to kick off something I've wanted to try out, which is to have multiple PODs mashed together and see how it goes. Though I still want to be within the realms of probability in choosing my PODs.

    So firstly, there's a new country in Europe. Norway, who becomes an independent kingdom established in 1815 under Charles of Prussia as king [1][2]

    And Speaking of which, there are a few more countries who are/Remain monarchies in this world, notably:

    1: Portugal under King Manuel II. [3]
    2: France under King Philippe VIII.[4]
    3: Brazil under Queen Isabel. [5]
    4: The United States under King Charles Francis II [6][7]

    And as for (overseas) territories here are a few:

    1: Sweden keeps St. Barthelemy AND Guadeloupe [8]
    2: The Netherlands still has control over Luxembourg [9]
    3: The Spanish-American war doesn't happen, instead, Spain sells its Pacific possessions
    (including the Philippines) to Germany [10][11]
    4: The Gadsden purchase doesn't happen [12]
    5: Hispaniola is still divided between French Haiti and Spanish Dominica [13]
    6: Ethiopia loses the First Ethiopian-Italian war, making them a part of Italy's colonial empire [14]
    7: And the biggest, (although optional) POD is: No Great War [16]

    Some of these cause huge butterflies, others maybe not, but the goal is to have a world you can recognise, but still notice that there are a lot of minor differences ITTL.




    [1] mostly based on the beginnings of this thread here:
    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...rlier-independent-hohenzollern-norway.358658/
    But instead of Wilhelm taking the throne, Prince Charles of Prussia, 3rd son of Frederick William III of Prussia takes it.

    [2] I've also planned a miniature empire for Norway, but nothing that'll be of any significance (though if possible, I'd like for Norway to be so "influential" that they're invited to the Berlin Conference)

    [3] Everything that led to the deposal of Manuel II is butterflied away. This thread might be helpful in that case: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/can-portugal-keep-their-monarchy.417633/

    [4] this thread features how the monarchy in France ITTL comes to be: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/paris-is-worth-a-flag-bourbon-france-1871.23389/

    [5] Alfonso survives and ITTL lives until 1913 (still no issue), so the one(s) to hold the Brazilian throne onwards is (as mentioned above) Isabel, younger sister of Alfonso & daughter of Pedro II of Brazil and her descendants.

    [6] Probably the nay, THE biggest net of butterflies in this whole alternate world. But I'd like to try out the concept, so I'll roll with it. America is ruled by the House of Adams, founded by John Adams upon the death of George Washington (George I). And by 1914, this man: Charles Francis Adams Jr. Brother of John Quincy Adams II. (who himself was king as John III until 1894) reigns ITTL as Charles Francis II

    [7] Yes, I know a monarchy in America, especially a hereditary one at that. Is next to impossible, but I still would see how a world where America is a successful constitutional monarchy would affect the world as a whole. plus, while I know someone like Hamilton, would be more likely to hold the title of King, I chose the Adams as the Royal house though, because the political stuff they did IOTL may or may not be the same. Especially since John Adams was the Second President of the US ITOL, so hey, that's something right???

    [8] Basically Sweden never sells or gives away St. Barthelemy and Guadeloupe remains with the Swedish to the present due to them not acquiring Norway as a compensation for Finland, they don't give it back to France and they're recognised as Swedish territory by the new treaty resulting in Norwegian Independence.

    [9] Basically Luxembourg either remains in the union with the Netherlands or the Netherlands takes a bold move and outright annexes Luxembourg.

    [10] Would this war even happen if the US is a monarchy??? Now I'm not so sure.

    [11] Ah yes, "Germany" Would there be a United Germany???
    (I'm not gonna lie. That's one of the main reasons I kept Wilhelm in Prussia, as I'd still like to see a united Germany, though I'm not sure if it can realistically happen ITTL)

    [12] Simply speaking, neither country agrees to make more purchases at the expense of the other.

    [13] This, of course, means France have to somehow crush the rebellion or prevent it, and somehow gain it back after the Napoleonic Wars.

    [14] This is meant to make Liberia the only independent nation in Africa (due to US protection) Though I don't know if even that would happen in a Monarchy USA.

    [15] There not being a War on the scale of the Great War is, among the likes an American monarchy, is one of my favourite alternate history scenarios. However, this one is optional because a Great War under these circumstances would either be really interesting or just a bit interesting.

    Anywho, now try and see what'll happen!
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 6:06 AM
    Historyman 14 likes this.
  2. Salvador79 Well-Known Member

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    Several PoDs? *frown*
    You seem to know precisely where you want to go long after your first PoD, so why ask what will happen..?
     
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  3. cmakk1012 Well-Known Member

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    OK, a few points/questions; gotta say overall multiple PoDs is a cool idea that is underused.

    1) America as a monarchy has huge butterfly effects on the Americas and Europe. Would the Louisiana Purchase still happen? How would the Civil War go down, if it even does happen?

    2) France keeping Haiti would require significant changes to the Napoleonic Wars that would have a good chance of getting rid of the Louisiana Purchase as well. If France is strong and stable enough to keep one, it’ll likely keep the other.

    3) Sweden isn’t recompensed for Finland? Did they not lose it? What happens to Russia ITTL?
     
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  4. Derek Pullem Butterfly Killer Donor

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    Multiple PoDs is underused because it rapidly turns into a fictional novel rather than an exercise in alternate history
     
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  5. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    I've not thought so far into it, But Napoléonic France may or may not keep Louisiana, and if Napoléon is in need of money like in OTL, maybe Louisiana is sold to the US

    Yeah, I knew the butterflies would be strong due to the multiple PoDs. But as above, if Napoléon desperately needs the money, I imagine he'd keep Haiti and sell Louisiana. As Haiti might be easier to keep due to it's smaller size and majority French-speaking population. Besides, I don't think an American monarchy butterflies away Manifest Destiny, so if they really want to, America could probably conquer it.

    Sweden still loses Finland, however, the conflict regarding the treaty of Kiel, and the Norwegians' attempt at independence lasts longer, mostly because ITTL Bernadotte sends the majority of his troops to fight the French, and IIRC he was scolded IOTL for not doing so. Anywho the Swedish-Norwegian war lasts significantly longer than OTL. resulting in a new treaty where the nation becomes independent under Prussian Prince Charles. and because the war lasts longer, Sweden doesn't return Guadeloupe to France.

    In short, Sweden doesn't gain anything Other than Guadeloupe, and a tribute payment over the next 50 years. Although maybe they could get Åland back. This will, however, change Swedish foreign politics and relations with the rest of Europe. They'll not be as neutral of a state as in OTL.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 7:50 AM
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  6. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    That makes sense. I do hope these Pods can somehow NOT result in fictitious ASB.
     
  7. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    As for Norway's "Empire," these areas have I planned to be Norwegian ITTL

    By 1914 Norway has:

    Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland Tristan da Cuhna + surrounding Islands, Kerguelen Islands + Surrounding Islands, Andaman & Nicobar Islands, Elizabeth Islands, New Hebrides Islands (Vanuatu)

    and as for continental colonies, then they have
    Norwegian West Africa (roughly Benin and modern Togo), and some trading forts in India
     
  8. cmakk1012 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of TLs use one PoD and then make a bunch of changes that would realistically require multiple PoDs anyway. “My PoD is in 10th century Italy but also Norse paganism survives!”

    That’s a huge colonial empire for a newly created nation; OTL new kid on the block Belgium just got the Congo.
     
  9. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    To be fair tho, the Kingdom included Iceland, Greenland and the Faroes from the start, as for the others, well... The thought was that Norway under the Hohenzollerns would acquire a large amount for their "empire" from Denmark, as in purchasing Danish forts, and colonies...

    Besides that, the other things are based on real-life areas they claimed OTL, example: the Sverdrup islands, (a part of the Elizabeth islands) was claimed by Norway from 1902 until 1929 when the treaty of Spitsbergen was signed. also at this point in time (1815) Kerguelen island nor the surrounding ones weren't claimed by any nation and I imagine the economy of Norway would benefit on their Whaling & fishing industry, as well as trade for goods with nations like Prussia, USA etc. Which would lead Norway to acquire control over land towards the Arctic as well as a lot of islands down south (they even claimed the South Sandwich islands IOTL)

    Or in other words, the sudden expansionism period Norway experienced from 1905 'till 1935 is stretched back to their independence ITTL.
    (it's amazing Norway even managed to acquire the overseas territories they have IOTL given they became independent in 1905, a century earlier with the expansionism of that period could give them a miniature "empire".

    Belgium wasn't that into colonies as the others right??
    plus, Belgium was a neutral nation and IIRC Congo was like a way to prevent fights over who should have the heart of Africa.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 4:12 PM
  10. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    (Talked to Joshua Ben Ari about some of this.)

    A Kingdom of America? Under the House of Adams? Not a chance in Tartarus. George Washington, nor anyone else would let it come to be.

    Out of all the PODs, France under the Orléanist, Brazil still a Kingdom, and so is Portugal are the mostly likely that can all work into that the other.

    The US will force the Gadsden purchase, Spain can sell it colonies, but everyone likes to see Spain it ass kick in.

    Ethiopia will kick the Italians back to Rome.

    A Great War is always in the cards. The tension and rivalry between he Great Powers will boil, and reach a point. And something will kick it off. (AKA: The Balkans.)
     
  11. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    REGARDING THE MONARCHY IN THE US

    So since the lineage of
    Adams apparently has nooooo chance at all to get the throne, I had to dig some. Aaaand after a looong amount of digging. Here are the two choices I've found.

    1: House of Lafayette
    2: House of Washington

    These are (hopefully) more likely to happen. But now let me explain the pros & cons of each one





    1: The House of Lafayette
    This house is founded upon Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette taking the American throne instead of Washington, he played a significant role in the American Revolution, but then returned to France to play significant roles in the French Revolution and the later July Revolution.

    Pros: One of the best things about having him as King is his origins, he comes from a noble family of the similar name House of La Fayette. which is a French noble house from the province of Auvergne, itself founded in the Middle Ages. Due to this, it's much easier for the Europeans to (unlike with the Iturbides) see them as having real royal blood, making his descendant's acceptable candidates for marriage with European monarchs.

    Cons: His lineage is tricky, as the current king of Belgium is a descendant of Luisa Gazelli (distant descendant of Gilbert's son Juste-Charles de la Tour-Maubourg) who married Fulco Ruffo di Calabria, Duke of Guardia Lombarda and gave birth to 7 children, One of which were Paola, the wife of Albert II of Belgium, making Philippe of belgium their technical descendant.

    As of right now, this is the Lineage I came to with Georges Washington Louis Gilbert du Motier gains the throne after Gilbert.

    1: Gilbert I (1783 - 1834)
    2: George I (1834 - 1849) *son of the former

    3: [Oscar] Gilbert II (1849 - 1882) *3rd son of the former

    4: Paul (I) Pourcet de Sahune du Mortier de La Fayette (1882 - 1926)
    *son of Octavie Perrier (d. 1870). * Who's Son of Nathalie Mortier de La Fayette (d. 1878). *3rd child of "George I"
    5: [Gaston] Gilbert III (1926 - 1942) *Brother of the former

    6: Gilbert (IV) Bureaux de Pusy du Mortier de La Fayette (1942 - 1950)
    *Cousin of the former. Son of Octave Bureaux de Pusy (d. 1889). *Son of Charlotte Mathilde Motier de La Fayette (d. 1886). *4th child of "George I"

    And that's that lineage so far... I have yet to figure out who should gain the throne afterwards.

    (since whether or not a WW happens, the lineage must continue onwards, but as for 1914, this lineage is set)





    2: The house of Washington
    Ah yes, This one I was surprised could even happen, a continued House of Washington.

    So as every American knows. George Washington himself had no children, however, he had younger brothers who did, giving him many niblings. The ones I've chosen from are the two sons of Samuel Washington, George's oldest younger brother (d. 1781) George Steptoe Washington & Lawrence Augustine Washington.

    Both of these were chosen (by me) since you can make it so that they both have descendants up 'till today, so it doesn't truly matter which one he appoints as heir apparent.
    Okay, so how would this happen well... This quote from Wikipedia (great source I know).

    After his father's death, he, along with his brother Lawrence Augustine and sister Harriet, went to live with their uncle George Washington for a time. The future president paid for him and his brother to be educated at Georgetown Academy, where according to historian Ron Chernow, "they were wild and uncontrollable and a constant trial to Washington".

    So while the boys were been "wild and uncontrollable" George still took care of them, so What if the future King George adopts and appoints them as his heir apparent(s).
    He would likely appoint the oldest one as that's how most cases of monarchies would've done it.

    So if George Steptoe succeeds George in 1800 this is the lineage:


    1: George II (1800 - 1809) * Adopted by "George I"
    2: Samuel I (1809 - 1831) * Son of the former
    3: George III (1831 - 1872) * Son of the former
    4: John I (1872 - 1881) * Son of the former
    5: Samuel II (1881 - 1923)
    *Son of Richard Scott Blackburn Washington, Sr. *Who's Son of John Augustine Washington, II.
    *Who's Son of Corbin Washington. *Who's Son of John Augustine Washington (youngest brother of "George I")
    6: Samuel III (1923 - 1978) * Son of the former (Samuel Walter Washington, I or "Samuel II")
    7: John II (1978 - Present?) * Son of the former

    Or if Lawrence Augustine succeeds him:

    1: Augustine I (1800 - 1824)
    2: Augustine II (1824 - 1882) * Son of the former
    3: [Walter] William I (1882 - 1904) * Son of the former
    4: James I (1903 - 1926) * Brother of the former
    5: James II (1926 - 1950) * Son of the former
    6: George II (1950 - 1965) * Brother of the former
    7: [Paul] William II (1965 - Present) * Son of the Former
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27075856/...-george-washingtons-closest-kin/#.WeEU4mi0OUk

    Pros: Having George choose a successor that's indirectly related to him would be better than having to found a new house especially since with the power of hindsight, I know both of them has lineage to the present. As many others have said, George is the only one that could've worn a Crown after 1776 so appointing someone's he related to rather than a stranger would assumably be helpful.

    Cons: But him not descending from a European nobility of some sort causes the same problem the Iturbides faced IOTL when it came to "legitimacy" and "not being true monarchs" however I think it could work, since the House of Iturbide are (debatably) considered a Royal house by today's standards so I think it'll be fine.





    So... Are these Royal Houses more likely then???
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 at 6:47 PM
  12. Cornelis Well-Known Member

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    Don't know about the all idea of American monarchy, but the Motier de Lafayette were clearly 2nd tier nobility. Ancient enough but no prestigious ancestry, no exalted title and especially no family link with a royal family. For European royalty, the Lafayette are clearly lacking. They may accept marriages if strongarmed Napoleon-style, but many years would pass before an alliance with a parvenu family.
     
  13. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

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    Note that colours of your 'royal houses' made them so washed out I couldn't read them.
     
  14. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    They were 1: House of Lafayette. And 2: House of Washington. In case people in the future have the same problem.
     
  15. T-Mag 3004 one_access_code

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    *2nd Bump*
     
  16. BlondieBC Kaiser of Ozarks

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    Agreed.

    And to be fair, if we handle butterflies honestly, any ATL becomes pure fiction 10-20 years in the future.