A different 1866 peace

After Sedan and during the siege of Paris, the regular army remnants as well as the very poor quality new levies and militias were terribly undersupplied and with very low morale. They did not fight well at well, got their butts kicked and were steadily pushed back by the Prussians after Sedan on every front, be it the Loire, the North, or the East.

Someone hasn't really read up on the Franco-Prussian War. The regular army troops fought very well on their own in the Belfort region. The regular contingents in the other armies, small as they were, fought well against forces outnumbering them by ridiculous margins, despite being poorly led and being thrown together with reservists and peasants.

To assume that they would perform any better in a two-front war against another regular army of good quality is preposterous.

You are mistaking the Italian army and the Alpine front for the Prussian Army and the Rhine front and this is so preposterous that your timeline, which is otherwise interesting, includes massive implausibilities and is harder to take seriously.
 
Which "French armies in Italy"???

Attacks from France to Italy (or viceversa) have to go through the Frejus pass and Val di Susa, or otherwise along the Mediterranean coast. I doubt very much that the Frejus can be forced against a determined opposition (IIRC the policy of French kings in the Italian wars of 16th and 17th centuries was to keep strategic fortresses in lower Piedmont (Pinerolo and Casale in particular) to ensure a possibility of moving troops to Italy. The Mediterranean route (which goes along what is today known as La Corniche is almost as bad: nowadays there is a highway, a railway and tunnels under the pre-Alps. In 1868 one had to plod along a narrow road.

The French have to attack, otherwise why give an ultimatum? The ground favors the defenders, and I do not expect any breakthrough (come on, it's not Napoleon's Italian campaign :D)

This is problematic to begin with: if France knows it's likely fighting two countries, why would it throw out an asinine ultimatum to Italy? How unlikely is that?

That aside, it's entirely likely that the French will concern themselves with the Germans first, leaving the required three divisions to guard the Alps, and fighting a delaying action in the Papal States before leaving after the initial round of defeats against the Prussians. An invasion would be stupid while the Prussians are about.

Nappy will need to put together two armies, one in the north and one on the Alps, therefore it's quite likely that there are not too many proven troops remaining anywhere in France.

No: he will put together one army, against the Prussians, and three divisions to keep the Alps perfectly defensible.

However the issue is a different one: IOTL France did not really dissolve, but went very close to a reasonable imitation of it, what with the military defeats on the Rhine and Paris erupting into a revolution. ITTL there will also be heavy losses on the Alpine front (because they have to attack: Italians can stay put) and panic might easily spread.
Mind, neither I nor Eurofed are planning to give Italy Toulon and Marseilles :eek:

They don't, and they won't.

The more I see what is going on in this timeline, the more ASB it seems.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Someone hasn't really read up on the Franco-Prussian War. The regular army troops fought very well on their own in the Belfort region. The regular contingents in the other armies, small as they were, fought well against forces outnumbering them by ridiculous margins, despite being poorly led and being thrown together with reservists and peasants.

And the Loire front ? The Northern front ? Bourbaki getting his arse on a plate on the same front ? You are reading far, far too much in the siege of Belfort. Besides, a successful long siege resistance is a wholly different thing from successful performance in the open field, even in the Alpine theater. Besides, I stand with what LK said. The French are going to attack, Napoleon III is the one that declared war and in dire need of crushing the Italians and the Prussians for political reasons. The French are going to suffer heavy losses and a bloody nose on the Alps, and with that and the news of the massive defeats in the North, the revolution and siege in Paris, morale can easily collapse. France has been fighting a two-front war, the remnants of the regular army after the defeats in the north and the losses on the Alps are going to be specks in a sea of half-baked reservists and ragtag militias, and the latter are not going to give the Italians any serious trouble while they march to the Rhone. By the way, the Italo-German alliance means that the I-G have the troops to reach rather deeper within France than OTL without risking overextension.
 
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This was relatively easily done when they were still playing brinkmanship about the Polish-Saxon issue. However, if they have already fully committed to war once Napoleon escapes, making an hasty peace and a new anti-Napoleonic united front becomes rather less easy. A three-way war becomes a quite plausible outcome.
It was double what-if in any case. Let's stick to the the 1866 TL


Well, I have never made the Congress of Vienna PoD explicit in detail. It might well be killing Talleyrand off with a stroke or accident, I loathe the guy, he was amongst the main causes of getting the Bourbons back in charge twice.
Don't!!!!! :eek::eek::eek: How can you even think of eliminating Talleyrand? He's one of those persons that prove reality being clearly superior to fiction.

Any AH-writer who invented a character like Talleyrand would be laughed off the board as simply ASBish and you want to eliminate him? I would be willing to exchange 1,000 Bismarcks for a single Talleyrand :p






We have to build with what history offers. I'm not sure which butterflies in the Napoleonic Wars it might cause to give Murat bigger brains. I guess I shall have to do with him getting an epiphany when the powers come to blows (he had one about letting Nappy sink in 1814, so it's not outlandish), and attracting some good counselors once he sets himself as a believable leadership for the Italian liberal-national movement (just like the way OTL Piedmont started attracting all the Italian best and brightest after 1848).
Let's hope in the epiphany, and may God protect Italy :D


I heartily disagree about the suggested lack of value for western Canada in American eyes. They were nowhere so disinterested about getting Columbia in the Oregon crisis, and both it and the Red River region attracted a sizable numer of American settlers.

I see your point about the USA being wary about a fight with Britain soon after the ACW (however, the British shall be equally wary of picking a fight with the USA after the Union Army made such a good performance).

However, I'm fairly determined to make the US purchase of western canada in 1866-67 an integral part of the TL at this point. I propose you two other PoDs for that: either the US offer to buy western Canada in exchange for dropping the Alabama claims, or the Fenian Raids are somehow more successful on their own, and the US government offers to suppress support fro them on their side of the border in exchange for UK acceptance of US purchase of western Canada.
Has GB ever sold lands that they were holding? Not even something utterly devoid of any value, like the Falklands. I am quite sure that there will be Fenian raids, and they will get even worse in the next decade when there will be a strong religious undertone fuelling the nationalists, but they will be a kind of pinprick. No way I can see GB selling western Canada to appease the USA and have them stop the raids. Best I might imagine is a more generous compromise on Oregon when the issue will surface.

Equal to OTL is well enough to populate American western canada as well as Alaska and later northern Mexico, and the Dominican Republic, Cuba, and Puerto Rico were fairly populated on their own.
I'm not completely convinced.

Turtledove hugely exaggerates the ability of a tiny religious minority entirely surrounded by US-loyal immigration to remain defiant for decades IMO. Likewise, Quebecois emigration (part going to western Canada, part to the rest of the USA) is soon going to realize that America is no more friendly to Boulangist Popism and French-Canadian nationalism than Anglo Canada. As I do not see them going to take the total-isolation road of the Amish, nor they have the numbers to become a major player in the American political system on their own like Southern foundamentalism (which is going to be radically hostile to "Popism"), I see them eventually reluctantly accepting assimilation rather than permanent second-class citizen status.
Do you prefer that I compare the "popist catholics" with the Jews? I believe you are underestimating the strength of religious belief and the vocation to martyrdom. I might even postulate that the fall of Rome and the exile of the Pope might be seen as a sign of the End of the Times, with the anti-Christ ready to take over Earth. A millenarian version of a very conservative (if not utmost reactionary) catholic doctrine?


Wholly agreed on this. Which chunks do you see US/AES-friendly Argentine getting at the peace table after the Great War ? IMO Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Caterina, are a given, but can we expect Buenos Aires to grab Paraguay, Paranà, and Igacu/Mato Grosso do Sul, too ?
Uruguay for sure. Paraguay? I wonder if Paraguay will be on the Brazilian side (in which case I see Bolivia as an Argentinean ally) or viceversa; I prefer the former, in which case Argentina would split Paraguay with Bolivia. Brazil is likely to loose Rio Grande do Sul, and probably some swath of land in the interior, close to the Bolivian and Paraguayan borders.


I wholly agree with this. Given the Boulangist-Popist loyalties of the Irish, Germany and Italy are going to be wholly hostile to their cause (much like the attitude of Western Europe to Serbian nationalism in OTL 1990s, I'd say).
More similar to Hamas, given the religious undertone. Or possibly something like the Kenyan uprising of the 1950s, if you want to stay with a British simile.


I share your concern, and Amadeus has a more promoshing throne waiting for him in Bosnia in a few years anyway.


Hmm, the second option might get in the way of getting a Carlist takeover after the Bourbon regime change in France, even stubborn Carlists might lack the energy to stage yet another coup or insurrection if they got a bloody nose a few years before. So I think the best option might be to delay the dethronement of Isabela a few years. It might be a butterfly arising from the I-F-G war. Let's say that some of the liberal generals that would later overthrow Isabela II delay their support to the revolution out of concern to the war raging on their northern borders. Soon after the war ends, they implement the revolution, but by that time, Pius IX has already escaped to France and is rousing reactionary Catholic opinion against liberalism across Europe. Tensions from the second Western Schism give the Carlists more following in Spain, so the Cortes get locked about choosing a new king. Soon after Chambord takes over, he pours French support to the Carlists, and they get the upper hand in a quick coup/insurrection.
It might also be possible to include an additional twixt: when Isabela is sent packing, she is also forced to abdicate in favor of her son Alfonso (who's 11 years old, and so would allow a long regency. Serrano - who might or might not be the true biological father of Alfonso - could be a good choice as regent). Then everything goes like OTL, with the progressive party infighting, substantial instability and a Carlist pronunciamiento when we want it.

BTW, I commend your valid effort to cross-pollinate the nice "Italy fulfilled" TL with ideas borne out of our own TL. Good work. :D

Thanks for the commendation, even if it resulted in a kind of storm-in-a-tea-cup :D
 

Eurofed

Banned
This is problematic to begin with: if France knows it's likely fighting two countries, why would it throw out an asinine ultimatum to Italy? How unlikely is that?

That aside, it's entirely likely that the French will concern themselves with the Germans first, leaving the required three divisions to guard the Alps, and fighting a delaying action in the Papal States before leaving after the initial round of defeats against the Prussians. An invasion would be stupid while the Prussians are about.



No: he will put together one army, against the Prussians, and three divisions to keep the Alps perfectly defensible.



They don't, and they won't.

The more I see what is going on in this timeline, the more ASB it seems.

You are totally ignoring the political constraints that being Napoleon III to war, as well as the fact that he and his generals are going to underestimate the Prussians and the Italians. Napoleon is starting the war a) to rescue Papal sovreignty on Latium b) to avenge Prussian snubs about Luxemburg. He's the one that is declaring war, and needs to go on the offensive on both fronts, or become the laughingstock of Europe.

Besides, the French political and military leadership of the time still really has the pre-industrial strategic perspective of the 18th and early 19th century, when France was the demographic, economic, and military giant of Europe and could easily afford a victorious two-front offensive war: Louis XIV, Revolutionary France, and Napoleon I could reap victories in Germany or the Low Countries and Italy at the same time, so why not Napoleon III ?
 
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This is problematic to begin with: if France knows it's likely fighting two countries, why would it throw out an asinine ultimatum to Italy? How unlikely is that?

The problem is that you're obsessed with OTL 1870 war, and in particular with the military side of it, completely disregarding the political issues.
Napoleon cannot accept meekly an Italian takeover of Rome (not to mention a defeat of his expeditionary corp in Latium): the French catholics would be up in arms and his regime would be tottering.
On the Luxembourg side - however - his perception of the situation is different: the crisis has not escalated yet, and he would be convinced that an agreement can be reached with Bismarck.
There is also nothing which makes it obvious that there is a German reinsurance for Italy: after all Italy and Germany has just fought a war as allies, but it is not yet an axis. One might also hint that this is the typical messy situation where Bismarck is at his tactical best: the more he's willing to face France on the battlefield the more he will show uncertainty and hint to possibilities to reach an appeasement.


That aside, it's entirely likely that the French will concern themselves with the Germans first, leaving the required three divisions to guard the Alps, and fighting a delaying action in the Papal States before leaving after the initial round of defeats against the Prussians. An invasion would be stupid while the Prussians are about.
OTL history is full of stupid decisions, ancient and recent. It's like the old saying: who bets on greed and stupidity never looses :D
If you had taken the effort of reading the previous posts, you'd have realised that there are no more French troops in Latium: the Italian army has entered the region after the (somehow inconclusive) Garibaldi's victory at Mentana and the (very conclusive) insurrection in Rome. They retreated in good order from Mentana, bypassed Rome and concentrated in Ostia where the embarked for France, taking the pope with them.
In this scenario, Nappy's options are truly reduced to a bare minimum: attack Italy or eat crow.


No: he will put together one army, against the Prussians, and three divisions to keep the Alps perfectly defensible.

It starts to sound like a broken record.


The more I see what is going on in this timeline, the more ASB it seems.
While I thank you for your unsolicited opinion, I would really recommend to try and see the wider picture and - once again - avoid refighting the Franco-German war of OTL. Re-enacting has never been one of my favourites.
 
I heartily disagree about the suggested lack of value for western Canada in American eyes. They were nowhere so disinterested about getting Columbia in the Oregon crisis, and both it and the Red River region attracted a sizable numer of American settlers.

I see your point about the USA being wary about a fight with Britain soon after the ACW (however, the British shall be equally wary of picking a fight with the USA after the Union Army made such a good performance).

However, I'm fairly determined to make the US purchase of western canada in 1866-67 an integral part of the TL at this point. I propose you two other PoDs for that: either the US offer to buy western Canada in exchange for dropping the Alabama claims, or the Fenian Raids are somehow more successful on their own, and the US government offers to suppress support fro them on their side of the border in exchange for UK acceptance of US purchase of western Canada.

Some points here:
-America already gave up any spurious claim to Western Canada in the 1818 treaty

-the claim on the whole of Oregon and British Columbia was a bluff. The Americans wanted the 49th parrallel (but they also wanted the tip of Vancouver Island below the 49th) as did the British (but they also wanted the Columbia river as a border.

-As far as I know, the British don't have a history of selling their empire away. Parts of the empire sometimes did buy the right to govern certain areas, such as OTL Canada, but that was always within the Imperial sphere.

-Britain has nothing to fear from Fenian raids. They were a severe nuissance and could only remain as such. Continued raids would only result in a troop buildup and harsh reprisals on any Fenians caught.



I really don't see why your so set on annexing western Canada. The area simply wouldn't make any significant increase on actual American power. Also your somewhat off on America showing great interest in the area. Both areas in question, Red River and the Oregon were settled 50 and 20 years before the period in question. To everyone involved, the entire question was a done deal. The border was clear cut.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Do you prefer that I compare the "popist catholics" with the Jews? I believe you are underestimating the strength of religious belief and the vocation to martyrdom. I might even postulate that the fall of Rome and the exile of the Pope might be seen as a sign of the End of the Times, with the anti-Christ ready to take over Earth. A millenarian version of a very conservative (if not utmost reactionary) catholic doctrine?

Of course, I can totally see the psychological reasons by which a sizable amount of Popist followers may Jew-like passively entrench in their allegiance, even after the French-Spanish champion of the faith goes down in flames during the Great War. And a minority may indeed turn Hamas-like (or worse, Taliban-like) to active hostile militancy. However, I also expect that another sizable amount are shaken off it in disillusionement and change of allegiance when their "crusade" is totally crushed. Adapting your religious allegiance in the face of total defeat is a tricky thing, some may interpret it as a test of faith and entrench, others as a sign that the previous path was wrong. Add to this the feelings of shame endengered by the public revelation (which the AES/USA propaganda is sure to trump out a lot) of the nasty features of the "Boulangist" regime, and I expect Popism to take a mightly blow after the Great War.

Uruguay for sure. Paraguay? I wonder if Paraguay will be on the Brazilian side (in which case I see Bolivia as an Argentinean ally) or viceversa; I prefer the former, in which case Argentina would split Paraguay with Bolivia. Brazil is likely to loose Rio Grande do Sul, and probably some swath of land in the interior, close to the Bolivian and Paraguayan borders.

A fine scenario as far as I'm concerned.

More similar to Hamas, given the religious undertone. Or possibly something like the Kenyan uprising of the 1950s, if you want to stay with a British simile.

Both comparisons seem apt, and I expect the Western public opinion to react wholly hostile to violent neo-Popist activism, in Europe and America alike.

It might also be possible to include an additional twixt: when Isabela is sent packing, she is also forced to abdicate in favor of her son Alfonso (who's 11 years old, and so would allow a long regency. Serrano - who might or might not be the true biological father of Alfonso - could be a good choice as regent). Then everything goes like OTL, with the progressive party infighting, substantial instability and a Carlist pronunciamiento when we want it.

Quite fine with me. Well thought.
 
Of course, I can totally see the psychological reasons by which a sizable amount of Popist followers may Jew-like passively entrench in their allegiance, even after the French-Spanish champion of the faith goes down in flames during the Great War. And a minority may indeed turn Hamas-like (or worse, Taliban-like) to active hostile militancy. However, I also expect that another sizable amount are shaken off it in disillusionement and change of allegiance when their "crusade" is totally crushed. Adapting your religious allegiance in the face of total defeat is a tricky thing, some may interpret it as a test of faith and entrench, others as a sign that the previous path was wrong. Add to this the feelings of shame endengered by the public revelation (which the AES/USA propaganda is sure to trump out a lot) of the nasty features of the "Boulangist" regime, and I expect Popism to take a mightly blow after the Great War.
All true: however if you add together the passive-resistants and the active-resistants (neither of which - I do agree - will ever amount to a plurality, much less a majority of the Irish) and you season the mix with a good dose of British brutality in repressing Irish insurgents it becomes quite easy to get caught in an insane spiral of ethnic isolation, religious backwardness, ignorance and poverty. Ok, possibly I'm too pessimistic; OTOH, IOTL the only Palestinians who prospered were the ones who left Palestine and effectively cut their ties with the past.

A fine scenario as far as I'm concerned.
It would require some research in South American history of the last quarter of 19th century, a subject on which I'm pretty ignorant.


Both comparisons seem apt, and I expect the Western public opinion to react wholly hostile to violent neo-Popist activism, in Europe and America alike.
Which ties up with the comment above: ITTL they will say "officer, there is a suspicious Irish-like stranger loitering in the train station".


Quite fine with me. Well thought.

Thanks, I think it might work.

Got also some kind of idea for the final collapse of A-H and the spark for the Balkan crisis out of a comment that AHP made in Franciscus' TL: ITTL A-H (or better the "A" part of A-H :D, the Hungarians were always against expansion into Slav lands) decides that the medicine to repair the damage of the last two wars is to start another one, and foments an insurrection in Bosnia-Ercegovina as a casus belli. Serbia and Montenegro align, bt their performance is abysmal as in IOTL (maybe worse since this happens earlier, say in 1873). The Austrians encounter their own difficulties in occupying Bosnia, the Hungarians grow more troublesome. High taxes to pay for the war and maybe a bad harvest produce unrest in Austria and Bohemia, which becomes a full-fledged rebellion in Vienna. The emperor leaves the city, Croat regiments are called to quell the tumults since Austrian regiments are busy in Bosnia and Hungarians are considered disloyal. A massacre results and Germany intervenes...
Must be fleshed up a bit, obviously. Like it?
 

Eurofed

Banned
All true: however if you add together the passive-resistants and the active-resistants (neither of which - I do agree - will ever amount to a plurality, much less a majority of the Irish) and you season the mix with a good dose of British brutality in repressing Irish insurgents it becomes quite easy to get caught in an insane spiral of ethnic isolation, religious backwardness, ignorance and poverty. Ok, possibly I'm too pessimistic; OTOH, IOTL the only Palestinians who prospered were the ones who left Palestine and effectively cut their ties with the past.

Good point. So, If I get your point, more or less whole Ireland would become a slightly better equivalent of modern West Bank or OTL Northern Ireland itself in your expectation ? Partial internal confederal autonomy from Britain under the management of local Irish (reluctant) collaborationists, Ulster defacto separate under direct British rule and/or federal autonomy under the control of Protestant loyalists, simmering nationalist-Popist guerrilla kept in check by British forces and reluctant cooperation of Irish collaborationists ?

It would require some research in South American history of the last quarter of 19th century, a subject on which I'm pretty ignorant.

Ditto. But hopefully we can concoct something.

Which ties up with the comment above: ITTL they will say "officer, there is a suspicious Irish-like stranger loitering in the train station".

Ethnic profiling of redheads :p I wonder if we could also expect the emergence of a more transnational Popist terrorism, the Quaeda equivalent to match the Hamas equivalent, with recruiting havens in places like Poland, France, and South America, besides Ireland.

Got also some kind of idea for the final collapse of A-H and the spark for the Balkan crisis out of a comment that AHP made in Franciscus' TL: ITTL A-H (or better the "A" part of A-H :D, the Hungarians were always against expansion into Slav lands) decides that the medicine to repair the damage of the last two wars is to start another one, and foments an insurrection in Bosnia-Ercegovina as a casus belli. Serbia and Montenegro align, bt their performance is abysmal as in IOTL (maybe worse since this happens earlier, say in 1873). The Austrians encounter their own difficulties in occupying Bosnia, the Hungarians grow more troublesome. High taxes to pay for the war and maybe a bad harvest produce unrest in Austria and Bohemia, which becomes a full-fledged rebellion in Vienna. The emperor leaves the city, Croat regiments are called to quell the tumults since Austrian regiments are busy in Bosnia and Hungarians are considered disloyal. A massacre results and Germany intervenes...
Must be fleshed up a bit, obviously. Like it?

I like it, I think it might be a plausible trigger for the Habsburg collapse. Speaking in a general sense, ITTL post-66 Habsburg empire is on the political brink of collapse anyway, the trigger may come from the Balkan adventure you suggest (decaying authoritarian regimes often try to capture a new lease or life with foolish expansionist adventures, so it's plausible), or it might come from the Habsburg getting scared that making any concessions could mean the revolution, and/or the Magyrars raising their demands too much, so no Ausgleich, or the German Austrians turning strongly Pan-Germanist after the F-G-I war (esp. if the Habsburg make abortive attempts to join France, which alienates German antionalist feeling), or Austria feels the backlash of the 2nd Western Schism (esp. liberals and German nationalists get to see it as a liberalism vs. obscurantism, German nationalism vs. subservience to France, struggle). Or a mix of the above. All of those factors may be a plausible trigger fro the collapse, which motivates the first riots and refusals of allegiance in Vienna, Prague, and Budapest, and starts the avalanche.

We may even easily expect that slightly different triggers start the collapse in different versions of the main TL (e.g. this one and the FC one).
 
Good point. So, If I get your point, more or less whole Ireland would become a slightly better equivalent of modern West Bank or OTL Northern Ireland itself in your expectation ? Partial internal confederal autonomy from Britain under the management of local Irish (reluctant) collaborationists, Ulster defacto separate under direct British rule and/or federal autonomy under the control of Protestant loyalists, simmering nationalist-Popist guerrilla kept in check by British forces and reluctant cooperation of Irish collaborationists ?
There is no Home Rule yet ITTL (and who knows when there will be one), and the Act of Catholic Emancipation is just a generation old. The Protestant Loyalists would certainly be there, and ITTL they would be supported by the Old Catholics (which the Crown and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will try to set up and support). The simmering guerrilla will be mostly religion-based, I guess (which does not mean it will be a chivalrous one: something bad is going to happen). There will be Irish collaborationists, and there will be Irish who hosnestly believe that the best for the country is to cooperate with the British. Well, it happened IOTL (where the religious angle was much less sharp, imagine what might happen ITTL).


Ditto. But hopefully we can concoct something.
Right. We might also try to involve some of the South-American posters.


Ethnic profiling of redheads :p I wonder if we could also expect the emergence of a more transnational Popist terrorism, the Quaeda equivalent to match the Hamas equivalent, with recruiting havens in places like Poland, France, and South America, besides Ireland.
Exactly so: all popist lands will contribute recruits and fundings but the Irish will be the visible part of this popist al-Qaeda: guess we can as wel name it "Opus Dei". The jesuits will be the cadres of the organization and provide the ideology.


I like it, I think it might be a plausible trigger for the Habsburg collapse. Speaking in a general sense, ITTL post-66 Habsburg empire is on the political brink of collapse anyway, the trigger may come from the Balkan adventure you suggest (decaying authoritarian regimes often try to capture a new lease or life with foolish expansionist adventures, so it's plausible), or it might come from the Habsburg getting scared that making any concessions could mean the revolution, and/or the Magyrars raising their demands too much, so no Ausgleich, or the German Austrians turning strongly Pan-Germanist after the F-G-I war (esp. if the Habsburg make abortive attempts to join France, which alienates German antionalist feeling), or Austria feels the backlash of the 2nd Western Schism (esp. liberals and German nationalists get to see it as a liberalism vs. obscurantism, German nationalism vs. subservience to France, struggle). Or a mix of the above. All of those factors may be a plausible trigger fro the collapse, which motivates the first riots and refusals of allegiance in Vienna, Prague, and Budapest, and starts the avalanche.

We may even easily expect that slightly different triggers start the collapse in different versions of the main TL (e.g. this one and the FC one).

You're obviously right: all the different components you list will contribute to the collapse. ITTL, the Habsburg empire is hit from different sides: internal centrifugal forces, German and Hungarian nationalism, liberalism, Old Catholics.
Add to this that Austria is coming out of two bad wars: the 1859 war was not such a disaster in military terms, but effectively Austria lost Lombardy and all of its clients in Italy; the 1866 war was a true disaster, both in military and political terms (besides the defeat and the loss of substantial territory, Austrian influence in Germany was effectively ended).
I think that there must be an Ausgleich, or at least a serious attempt to build one. There will also be a conservative shift in government and liberals will be regarded at best as unwitting traitors. I'm pretty sure that some bright mind in Vienna will try to use the Croats to offset the Hungarians. The only reasonable hope of expansion will be toward the south (which means getting closer to Serbia, cooling off relations with both Russia and the Ottomans and increasing Hungarian discontent). And Austria did some half-hearted attempt at mobilization during the F-I-G war, but (lucky for them) the events unravelled too quickly for them to really intervene. I can also envisage an economic downturn, since the Italian and German markets will be close, and if they manage to piss the Ottomans and the Russians at a single stroke A-H will become quite isolated: the example of a booming Germany just beyond the border will attract as many souls as pan-German nationalism does :D
In the end a "short, victorious war" is certain to become the possible solution to all the woes of the Habsburg emperor (and to get there higher taxes will have to be imposed on an already tottering economy, increasing discontent).

The idea of having different developments ITTL and in FC's TL is also a good one.
 
?I wonder how this Extreme Catholicism will play in Algeria & Morocco?
?I also wonder how this will affect the 1870's rebellion in Cuba?

Enuff Italians/South Europeans migrated to Cuba 1870-1915, to raise the White population from 50% in 1860 to 70% in 1960. I don't see that happening ITTL.

If the US accepts Santo Domingo in 1870's, I see problems with the Blacks.
In Santo Domingo there will be political problems with a Majority Black Population
In the US there may be attempts to push the Blacks into Hispaniola.
There is also the Blacks next door in Haiti.

If the US has most of the Antilles, I don't see them being scared out of the Nicaraguan Canal by a Volcano postcard. The Canal would have been built before the Eruption.
As Such probably there is no Independent Panama.

If Canada gets Alaska, then they control the Entire length of the NW Passage.

?Are whe going to have a Scramble for Africa ITTL?

?Is there any way that the Japanese/Chinese war of 1895 could start this world's Great War.?

I see Spain losing the Canaries, and Madrid Islands.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Several interesting points, which may feed further developments and give the author ideas, thank you. :D Let's see:

?I wonder how this Extreme Catholicism will play in Algeria & Morocco?

Well, a clericofascist regime that holds the Inquisition as a role model isn't especially geared to win the sympathies of its Muslim subjects, isn't it ? ;)

OTL France experienced some serious serious revolts in Algeria during the 1870s, I assume that with this authoritarian and intolerant France-Spain they could become even worse. And the regime is likely to retaliate by turning really nasty. Hmm, perhaps genocidal scorched earth repression, large-scale massacres and deportations ?

?I also wonder how this will affect the 1870's rebellion in Cuba?

This is a rather interesting topic, one that has wider implications for the future of the TL. On one hand, this America is going to be even more eager than OTL to expand in the Caribbean, and they shall be even less tolerant of having a clericofascist colonial outpost in front of them than of OTL Spanish colonial rule. So they are likely to start the SAW (only extended to France ITTL) sooner than IOTL, possibly in the 1870s-1880s when the rebellion in Cuba starts (and the clericofascists likely aren't going to reap more allegiance from the Cubans than OTL Spain). OTOH, after fighting two major wars in quick succession, America is rather war-weary at this point, and I'm not sure when they shall have recovered enough to fight another major war vs. France-Spain. Typically, I follow the notion that modern nations involved in the great power game tend to fight major wars every 20-30 years before MAD, although exceptions may exist.

Moreover, TTL late 1800s America is going to keep a rather stronger army and navy than IOTL, thanks to the lesson of the 3rd Anglo-American war. This means that when they fight France-Spain, they are very likely going to win (unless they get Russia in the mix, which is a possibility, but even so, Entente victory isn't sure, as America fights on its home turf and the Entente at the end of a very long logistic chain). If this happens too early, it may bring down the Bourbon-Carlist regime before the Great War, and this would "waste" them for the TL, so speak. The nasty clericofascists are just too perfect to play the bad guys in the Great War and find their fitting Gotterdammerung end there. So I'm torn whether to let the SAW happen early in the late 1870s or early-mid 1880s, or make it a part of WWI in the 1890s. I welcome suggestions.

Enuff Italians/South Europeans migrated to Cuba 1870-1915, to raise the White population from 50% in 1860 to 70% in 1960. I don't see that happening ITTL.

Well, few Italians are going there, both because it's the colony of an hostile power and because Italian economy is developing quite faster than IOTL, its industrialization is getting accelerated by three generations. Whichever Italians (and Germans) still emigrate, since domestic industrialization can absorb most but not all of the population boom, they are going to the African colonies and the USA first and foremost (which have even more land to settle ITTL), then Argentina and Canada. But we may have more immigration from Spain, France, and allied Russia ITTL to compensate, the regime may foster colonial immigration, fascist-like regimes typically do (assuming the the USA don't conquer Cuba soon). Anyway, it's not a big problem (see below).

If the US accepts Santo Domingo in 1870's, I see problems with the Blacks.
In Santo Domingo there will be political problems with a Majority Black Population
In the US there may be attempts to push the Blacks into Hispaniola.
There is also the Blacks next door in Haiti.

Well, about St. Domingo and the issue of the Black population thereof and in the South, there are some points. First, as much as I know about the island republic, it was ruled and controlled (much like the rest of the independent Latin American republics) by an elite that belonged to the white or mixed-blood (Black or Native) mostly-white-looking minority. Moreover, you may notice that ITTL, Reconstruction in the South is taking a somewhat different course, where the 3rd Anglo-American War causes an early move towards sectional reconciliation. The North offers Marshall Plan-like economic relief and quick reenfranchisement of secessionists, in exchange for acceptance of the Civil War's outcome.

I reason out that this ought to create a different socio-political course for the South, where OTL hard-core segregation does not occur and the whites accept some amount of power-sharing, albeit inequal, with the blacks. At the very least, I expect that "one-drop rule" segregation does not manifest, and a "Brazilian" form of racial discrimination develops, essentially informal and socio-economic in character, not enshrined in a Jim Crow body of laws, aimed towards against the poorest and most African-looking Blacks, while affluent and/or whiteish-looking elites get socially accepted by the white community. This ought to ease integration in the USA of communities, like St. Domingo and early Cuba, if the latter is ever conquered early, that were ruled by such an elite.

As it concerns Haiti, however, I would deem that even "Brazilian" racism would want to keep it and its teeming masses of dirt-poor, uneducated, African-looking would-be immigrants at arm's length. As far as I know, anti-Haitian racism has been a constant feature in the more affluent, more whiteish Dominican society, with constant attempts to limit and expel Haitian immigrants and I expect this to get only amped up in an American St. Domingo. Say, constant attempts to make the border with Haiti as airtight as possible.

If the US has most of the Antilles, I don't see them being scared out of the Nicaraguan Canal by a Volcano postcard. The Canal would have been built before the Eruption.

Yup, this makes sense. I seem to remember that the Nicaragua Canal was technologically simpler to build than the Panama one, and therefore possibly it was feasible even in the 1870s-1880s. Surely with the expanded West Coast, this USA is even more eager to have a Canal ASAP.

As Such probably there is no Independent Panama.

As it concerns Panama, I'll go and say that I'm a big fan of mega-engineering, so as it concerns central America, I'm usually in favor of TLs where both Nicaragua and Panama Canals get built. I'm not sure if this USA is wanked enough that is willing to build both routes from the start (as in my other TL where it spans the Americas). But in any case it ought to be feasible a situation where we have two rival projects, America builds the Nicaragua Canal, another European power (Britain and France-Spain both look good candidates) builds the Panama one, then America later seizes control of the latter, either by conquest (for France, a result of the SAW or American partecipation in the Great War if the former folds into it) or by peaceful purchase (for Britain, it might go either way, it depends whether US and UK become strategic rivals or partners). Independence of Panama probably occurs much like OTL in this regard, at the sponsorship of whichever power builds the Canal.

If Canada gets Alaska, then they control the Entire length of the NW Passage.

Yep, all the more reason for America being eager to have a Canal under its control as soon as possible (and eventually seize control of the second, foreign-built one). As it concerns Canada, and Britain, I'm honestly uncertain about their eventual fate. I see abundant justification both for Canada to become a success story almost as big as OTL (there shall be more plentiful settlement of Northern Ontario and of Alaska-Yukon, to make up for the territories that the USA annexed, thanks to an early gold craze, which is going to happen), or to collapse, owning to growing Anglo-French Canadian antagonism, with Quebec eventually going independent, and Alaska-Yukon and Ontario falling in the lap of the USA.

Of course, this is also tied to the course of US-UK relations. I see good reasons both for them putting the 3rd Anglo-American War behind their backs and achieving OTL reconciliation, or for a lasting strategic antagonism to develop, with America being a third side in the Anglo-German-Italian vs. Franco-Spanish-Russian clash (I cannot see democratic America ever allying with the clericofascist Latin bloc, too big political differences, and they are going to fight a war about the latter's Caribbean and Pacific colonies sooner or later).

Differently from the Anglo-American war, which I purposefully PoDed into being and butterflied its outcome in order to give America those choice bits of Canada and set up the US-Canadian border which I deem barely proper to have for various reasons, I'm not especially committed to have either course to happen for both Canada and US-UK relations. Of course, the very existence of Anglo Canada offends my sense of geopolitical propriety (much like the existence of Austria, I cannot stand incomplete national unifications), so I kill it in a TL if I have a choice (Quebec has sufficient cultural distinctiveness to exist). But honestly I cannot tell whether it is more clichè for Britain and America to be friends or enemies, and so I purposefully left the door open for both outcomes ITTL.

?Are whe going to have a Scramble for Africa ITTL?

I don't see why not. The European powers have even more reason to vent out their imperialistic rivalries for a while in the relatively harmless carving up of Africa ITTL. However, we are going to see different borders, since Germany and Italy are much stronger and good buddies with Britain (even if it is not the BFF, one soul in two bodies, relationship that Berlin and Rome now share). E.g. Belgian Congo and German Tanganyka were the product of OTL butterflies that have no reason to exist ITTL.

In this kind of Italo-German success story TLs, I'm generally fond of letting the various powers mostly realizing their choice expansion turfs (Germany western central-southern Africa, Italy eastern northern-central Africa, France western Africa aiming towards a West-East axis, Britain the Cape to Cairo axis) with possible clashes on border areas happening between rivals (Fashoda equivalent, if the Great War does not happen earlier for some other reason, say new Balkan strife, Persia, the Great Game, the Russo-Japanese war, certainly looks a good GW flashpoint). Of course, with all the four big boys fully in the Scramble game from the start, the chances of the minors getting a sizable colonial empire grow faint: no Belgian Congo, and Portugal OTL sitted on a lot of valuable land which is not very likely to keep ITTL (hint, hint).

?Is there any way that the Japanese/Chinese war of 1895 could start this world's Great War.?

It is a possible flashpoint, although I see an earlier Russo-Japanese war more likely. As I said, I see the Balkan wars (without the Italo-Ottoman war of course, Italy already has the other powers' blessing to get Tunisia and Libya, and Turkey is not going to be defiant on this, since Italy helped save its skin from Russia), Persia, Afghanistan, Fashoda, and the Russo-Japanese war broad equivalents as good flashpoint, of course with schedules anticipated and details changed. I'm less convinced on the Japanese-Chinese war itself because I don't see any great power ever getting the side of China, which they all wanted to carve up. Of course, we might still have a post-war clash between Japan and Russia, backed by France-Spain, over the size of the Japanese booty. If Britain, backed by the Italo-German bloc, takes the side of Japan (however, this would require to anticipate the Anglo-Japanese alliance), you may have the Great War.

I see Spain losing the Canaries, and Madrid Islands.

Interesting, but to whom ? Britain, Germany, or Italy ? I definitely see Spain losing the Balearic Islands to Italy after the Great War.
 
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I see Spain losing the Canaries, and Madrid Islands.
Interesting, but to whom ? Britain, Germany, or Italy ? I definitely see Spain losing the Balearic Islands to Italy after the Great War.
The Royal Navy of Course, Britain has a History of Using all the Little Islands around the world to Underpin It's world wide control.
?I wonder how this Extreme Catholicism will play in Algeria & Morocco?
Well, a clericofascist regime that holds the Inquisition as a role model isn't especially geared to win the sympathies of its Muslim subjects, isn't it ?

OTL France experienced some serious serious revolts in Algeria during the 1870s, I assume that with this authoritarian and intolerant France-Spain they could become even worse. And the regime is likely to retaliate by turning really nasty. Hmm, perhaps genocidal scorched earth repression, large-scale massacres and deportations ?
I was thinking about effects of Morocco getting control of Spanish Sahara 70~80 years earlier than OTL.
There is also the Blacks next door in Haiti.
I was Wondering more in terms of the Linchpin of US foreign policy -- When in Doubt - Send the Marines -

Re: Canal
Columbia sold the Rights to a French company [same one as build the Suez]. The company went Bankrupt,
The US ended up buying the Rights from the French, and then Columbia refused to transfer permission.
I can see the US building the Nicaraguan Canal while Franco/Spain tries to compete in Panama, Course this means that Columbia, came down on the Papist side, v OC.
So I'm torn whether to let the SAW happen early in the late 1870s or early-mid 1880s, or make it a part of WWI in the 1890s. I welcome suggestions.
OTL During Spain's time of Trouble in the early 1800's Many Native Spanish Cubans moved into positions of Power in the Colonial Government.
In the 1840's a new Governor in Havana, began disenfranchising the Cuban Born in favor of Spanish born. [He claimed Cuban born were not real Spanish]
This was the Basis of the 1870's revolt, that ended when Spain agreed to Reforms.
Spain didn't do the promised Reforms, which lead to the 1890 revolt.

ATL I see a Papist /OC component to this, with lots of Soldiers and settlers sent to Cuba [late 70's] to restore and maintain order.
An American Ship [leased by American OC supporters] is captured [1890's] smuggling Arms and supplies to Cuba's OC based resistance. The Crew is executed.
US declares war and the SAW begins. , Japanese cites the Japanese/American Friendship Treaty and invades the Philippines. The great War begins.
(however, this would require to anticipate the Anglo-Japanese alliance)
Weren't British [navy] and Germans [army] training the Japanese even before the Treaty
 
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Eurofed

Banned
The Royal Navy of Course, Britain has a History of Using all the Little Islands around the world to Underpin It's world wide control.

Fine with me. ;)

I was thinking about effects of Morocco getting control of Spanish Sahara 70~80 years earlier than OTL.

Well, the obvious effect of this is that Western Sahara shall be thoroughly assimilated in Morocco. Good, one less useless nationalist issue to bother the world in the far future. :cool: Thanks for pointing this to my attention, I'll implement the necessary butterflies.

I was Wondering more in terms of the Linchpin of US foreign policy -- When in Doubt - Send the Marines -

Oh, no doubt that they shall do that from time to time, when Haiti becomes too chaotic, just as they did IOTL, only more so now since they share a border. But I doubt that America shall even be tempted to go and assimilate Haiti, the place already was in late 1800s a socioeconomic hellhole and never really improved since. :(

They already got, or in the near future shall get, some of the best choice bits of the Caribbean, St. Domingo, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and ITTL they shall proceed to full annexation and statehood of everything (goodbye, Castro :D), as they shall most likely do with the countries that host the two Canals (goodbye, Noriega), and with Costa Rica lying in the middle. But I don't see them ever temped to make the dirt-poor Haitians American citizens.

Re: Canal
Columbia sold the Rights to a French company [same one as build the Suez]. The company went Bankrupt,
The US ended up buying the Rights from the French, and then Columbia refused to transfer permission.
I can see the US building the Nicaraguan Canal while Franco/Spain tries to compete in Panama, Course this means that Columbia, came down on the Papist side, v OC.

It is an otherwise fine scenario, but I'm not sure whether I'm going to make Columbia and Venezuela a Papist stronghold, or a disputed area. For now, I've only decided to make Brazil Papist, and Chile/Argentina OC. Anyway, even if Columbia does not come down strongly on the Papist side, France-Spain can still sponsor a secessionist coup in Panama and turn the newborn republic into a puppet state to ease the constructin of the Canal. After all, America did so IOTL. Of course, such a strategic expansion of France-Spain in Central America is only going to heighten tensions with America. All the more fuel for the coming war. :D

OTL During Spain's time of Trouble in the early 1800's Many Native Spanish Cubans moved into positions of Power in the Colonial Government.
In the 1840's a new Governor in Havana, began disenfranchising the Cuban Born in favor of Spanish born. [He claimed Cuban born were not real Spanish]
This was the Basis of the 1870's revolt, that ended when Spain agreed to Reforms.
Spain didn't do the promised Reforms, which lead to the 1890 revolt.

ATL I see a Papist /OC component to this, with lots of Soldiers and settlers sent to Cuba [late 70's] to restore and maintain order.
An American Ship [leased by American OC supporters] is captured [1890's] smuggling Arms and supplies to Cuba's OC based resistance. The Crew is executed.
US declares war and the SAW begins. , Japanese cites the Japanese/American Friendship Treaty and invades the Philippines. The great War begins.

It's a fine scenario, except that I don't really see the Yankee letting the upstart Japanese get such a choice bit of south east Asia like the Philippines instead of claiming it themselves. Rather, Russia intervenes in the SAW, Germany and Italy cite the Friendship treaty with America and intervene, Britain is brought in because of the Triple Alliance, Japan's alliance with Britain is activated, Japan attacks Russia in Manchuria.

I don't see Japan getting much more from its partecipation in the Great War other than Korea, Inner & Outer Manchuria, Sakhalin, Kamchatka, and perhaps Inner & Outer Mongolia, and eastern Siberia. Which is still a quite fine empire, if you ask me. Expansion towards south east Asia is only going to step on the toes of America and the Anglo-German-Italian bloc, and would get Japan utterly curbstomped. Of course, they might still do it. ;)

Weren't British [navy] and Germans [army] training the Japanese even before the Treaty

Well, yes, except ITTL there would also be Italian military advisors, but the Anglo-Japanese alliance only came in 1902. Of course, ITTL it may happen earlier, if the Triple Alliance has been grooming Japan as a check to Russia.
 
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It's a fine scenario, except that I don't really see the Yankee letting the upstart Japanese get such a choice bit of south east Asia like the Philippines instead of claiming it themselves.
It's just I have alway had Questions about the Timing of Dewey and the Asiatic Squadron.
I think that if the SAW had started Quicker, and at a different time, Those large Japanese, German and British Fleets that arrived in the days after Dewey, could have been there before him.
I don't see Japan getting much more from its participation in the Great War other than Korea, Inner & Outer Manchuria, Sakhalin, Kamchatka, and perhaps Inner & Outer Mongolia, and eastern Siberia
?Why would any one want Kamchatka, or Mongolia? Even Russia has never done anything with them.
By Eastern Siberia - ?Do you mean Amur Province? I don't see Japan wanting, or getting the Okhotsk Coast.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I think that if the SAW had started Quicker, and at a different time, Those large Japanese, German and British Fleets that arrived in the days after Dewey, could have been there before him.?

I see why you are fascinated with that scenario, but honestly, TTL butterflies can and most likely would disrupt it. I mean, ITTL America is building a rather stronger fleet and has a larger presence in the Pacific, owning to its control of Canadian Columbia, since the late 1860s, whileas Germany and Italy have the joint protectorate of Indochina and most likely shall partition Siam with Britain.

Why would any one want Kamchatka, or Mongolia? Even Russia has never done anything with them.

OK, I see your point, but Yakutia and Chukotka have plenty of valuable mineral resources, if a terrible climate.

By Eastern Siberia - ?Do you mean Amur Province? I don't see Japan wanting, or getting the Okhotsk Coast.

No, Amur province is a part of Outer Manchuria. By "Eastern Siberia", I meant the sum of Transbaikal (Zabaykalsky Krai plus Buryatia), and, if Japan gets greedy and ambitious, all the Far Eastern Federal District as well. OTOH, if Japanese claims are relatively moderate, they shall be limited to, but surely include, the sum of Korea, Sakhalin, Inner Manchuria, Outer Manchuria, Transbaikal, and the Kuril Islands, if Japan does not already have them.
 
looked at those map links
I can see inner [China, ] outer [Russia ] Manchuria, and maybe Kamchatka [at the north end of the Kurils.
But Japan doesn't have the Population or Troops to take/hold the Okhotsk Coast.
Nor do I see 1890~1900 Italy/Germany/Japan being able to defeat Russia so bad that Russia gives up the Coast.
I know that this is pre Trans-Siberian, and Russia will have trouble sending reinforcements, but the Terrain and Wilderness will prevent any large Japanese movements deep into Siberia.

Given the US [and Britain's] pushing of the open door policy I don't see Japan getting title to Inner Manchuria, but instead a Protectorate of some kind.
However Russia can be forced [war is different] to give title in Fee Sovereign to Outer Manchuria.

If Russia does lose a lot of it's Asian holding, it will solve the split between Russia's Europe and Asia Half's.

?Does Italy control Monaco now?
?What will happen to Andorra? San Mariano? in this [?cold war?] world.

?How will this [?Cold War?] Effect the Building of the European Railroad Net? 1870~1900? This 30 Years OTL saw most of the rails and tunnels in Europe built.
I don't see the same level of international cooperation ITTL.

Whe will need a Map, both pre GW, and Post GW.
 
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