A different 1866 peace

Eurofed

Banned
Accusations of crypto-fascism in a pre-1900 TL are more humorous than annoying.

Don't you know ? Mein Kampf was written by Arminius, plans for the Partition of Poland were written by a committee of Theodoric, Romolus Augustus, and Attila, and the first drafts for the Final Solution (of Poles; Jews always were an insignificant footnote, in comparison to the attempt to destroy the *real* Chosen People) were penned by Barbarossa.
:eek::rolleyes:;):p

In the early 1870s the USA are more concerned with reconstruction and Indian wars than with anything as exotic as Philippines. They have not even started to sniff seriously around Hawai'i. IMHO the purchase of Philippines, Guam and Marianas would not make a ripple in Washington.

True, however they would still be mightly interested into joining the ASE war coalition in order to free Cuba and Puerto Rico from the Boulangist yoke, only ITTL they would net the French Caribbean as well.

Good point, and I would really like to start with Umberto of Savoy who ITTL might avoid the marriage with his cousin Margherita in 1868: let him have a good and fertile German princess with blonde hair, wide hips and a sunny personality. This might make Umberto less tight-assed and hopefully less of a stuck-up conservative; getting rid of OTL Vittorio Emanuele would be a side benefit but certainly non a minor one :D

This is easily doable. I think some suitable Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen girl should be available for Umberto. And half a generation later William II could get a similarly nice Savoia-Aosta girl to improve him as well. The generation after that, the dynastic game can be expanded to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (however, given the already close breeding between them and the Hohenzollern main branch, some caution may be exercised here, even if a SCG-Savoy match would not have problems).

As an aside, I would say that another golden opportunity would arise by marrying one of the Dutch Queen Regnants with the Crown Prince of Germany or Britain. An Anglo-Dutch or German-Dutch personal union would be nifty to reinforce the alliance's standing in Western Europe, and I think Boulangism may make the Dutch people rather nervous, so they might welcome closer ties with the ASE.

Another thought: given that we said about the nature of the OC Church, and its likely quick ecumenic reconciliation with the Anglicans, that OC Catholics in the British Isles meet a far more positive opinion than Popish Catholics. This could hugely improve the situation in Ireland if the OC Church entrenches there and it spearheads a British-Irish reconciliation. Think, a successful Home Rule, which in due time blossoms into an Irish Dominion, no Irish War of Independence and Civil War, no IRA, no Troubles, and no hidebound Irish Catholic Church.

OTOH, French in general and Parisians in particular have a remarkable record of three kings and an emperor sent packing (or worse) in 80 years; and I even keep Nappy I out of the count :D

True, but remember, the only one to set up a good secret police, Nappy I, only fell because of military defeat, and so did his lukewarm nephew. In all likelihood Boulangism is going to go much, much farther than Nappy I ever did into setting up a police state. And that kind of regime is far more likely to go and export its impending economic and political trouble into aggressive wars for plunder and prestige, if MAD does not held them back. Say expansionism in Belgium, Portugal, Switzerland, colonial clashes with ASE into Africa or East Asia, etc.

Cannot fault you, and to tell the truth I'm not in love with the name either: I did not have any bright idea, sad to say.

Writer's block, here as well. :( Maybe a suitable alternative shall surface in due time, or a creative reader shall proffer.

As an aside, I think that ITTL some title change for countries and thrones may be in line. E.g. I totally expect Germany to change from "German Empire" to "Empire of Germany" once Austria and Bohemia are annexed to signify that all German lands and peoples have been united under it. Likewise, Italy, in order to highlight its irredentist-expansionist success after its gains from France, Austria, and in North Africa are netted, and to maintain parity with its German buddy, it might easily rename itself to "Empire of Italy". Of course, Britain is going to get its own Imperial title from the Indies in the 1870s, so the ASE would well be the "Dreikaiserbund", albeit of a wholly different, liberal bent, and with different actors. Russia, of course, had its hoary imperial title, but I wonder if this might push the Boulangists to claim one as well. France-Spain does look as a believable empire, of course, and they have their pet Pope to bestow titles on command, they might well resurrect the "Holy Roman Empire" title (of course, Germany and Italy shall scream murder for the usurpation).
 

Eurofed

Banned
It should be a classic case of France first and Russian second (and given the early war, Russia will be evn slower to mobilise). I do believe that Persia and North-west frontier will be side shows, managed with Indian troops (even if I would like a thrust into the soft belly of Asian Russia); Japan can and will take care of the North. IMHO the British will have to prop up the Ottomans (I can see a BEF in Salonika, which is still Ottoman) and save the Portuguese bacon: it's not too much of a commitment, therefore I look forward to see a major landing in France (Bordeaux? Normandy? Pas-de-Calais? there are good reason for any of them) to clinch the deal and dispose of the French half of the Holy Alliance.

Well, this is an interesting point. Assuming, as a rough estimate, that this war happens in the 1890s (and for semplicity, that it gets interwined with the Spanish-American War: certainly Americans are going to step in and kick the Boulangists out of the Caribbean at some point), this is a wholly different beast. The ACW and RJW show that to some amount trench warfare is possible before 1914, although it is not likely to be nowhere as dominant. It is way dubious whether the ASE would create a Plan Schliffen ITTL (they may or may not; on one hand, Britain amy dislike expandign the war to neutral Belgium; OTOH, if the Boulangists invaded it, or if London truly deems it necessary to win the war they may ask Belgium right of passage. France has its border on the Meuse, and on Nice and Savoy, so its border is less favorable to stage a successful defense, although I expect the Boulangists spent some efforts fortifying it (maybe not to a full extent, given they likely expect to go on the offensive and win by "elan").

This is to say that I cannot tell for certain whether a quick dispatch of France-Spain as in 1868 is likely. Some factors may it definitely possible, but given Spanish support, I would regard as wholly plausible too that initial offensives by both sides are stalemated in trench warfare, and the Boulangist are gradually bled down by overwhelming ASE numbers over six months to a year. BEF initial committment is going to shore up the Ottomans, the Portoguese, and the Belgians, I expect. Given slow British mobilization, I expect that troops for big landings in France and Spain are only available when Germans and Italians are well underway in grinding down the F-S with combined offensives, the landings would be the knockout punch. Afterwards, of course, it begins the relatively slow job of cutting down the Bear slice by slice another six months to a year. Serbia and Romania would go down as fast as IOTL or faster, esp. Serbia is going to be wholly encircled.

It is a reasonable scenario. I may disagree on the follow up, since I believe that France (and Spain too) might be broken down into a number of regional states: it would make sense, given the history of last century. Russia will have to be peeled like an onion, and pushed back to the borders of old Muscovy. After which the "coalition of the winnings" will have to stay awake to snuff out any totalitarian and/or revanchist regime which might surface from time to time, but it would not be too big an effort and might be done under the umbrella of ETO (European Treaty Organization :D)

All true and good, except that I don't believe in the usefulness of partitioning nations that have a strong self-consciousness, see my point above. You may detach stuff like Catalonia and Brittany, but dividing the rest of France and Spain is going to be a nasty exercise in futility as the division of Germany was. Better a thorough "re-education" of those countries at gunpoint.

You know what, I believe the biggest culprit for what happened IOTL in the 20th century is old Bismarck

Well, he made some serious mistakes (but as our TL shows, he could have only acted differently in 1866 , which would have removed a lot of future problems, only if Italy had done its part), he picked the worst possible default allies in the Hasburg zombies, he did not left a legacy of a solid alliance with Italy and either Britain or Russia, he foolishly encouraged the worst traits in young William, he did not made what he could to snuff out the stirring of the naval craze.

Article 23 of ETO Pact: The term "Greater" is reserved for the use of Great Britain, Grossdeutschland and Grande Italia :p

As well as the term "Empire". ;)

However I trust that TTL is a reasonable attempt to engineer a workable solution.

I agree, although the CoE may have to pull TTL's equivalent of the Kosovo War "police action" once or twice during 20th century, I reckon.

It looks like you covered all the bases, well done.

Thanks, I wish I was more skilled at map-making to make a suitable picture of post-Congress Europe. However, I think we are fast approaching the point where we have pretty much laid down the TL, at least until the post-Congress geopolitical lull of the late 1870s. A question for you, given that the Second Western Schism and the Boulangist takeover of France and Spain with all its nasty ideological antagonism shall be at full rage, not to mention that France is still recoving from the defeat and the Commune, does France take part in the Congress, and does the boulangist King and strongmen stomach to deal with the Germans and Italians ? As far as I can tell, 19th century diplomatic custom frowned on making a great power a pariah.

Possible monarchs for the new states and principalities would mostly come from Germany, where there is an abundancy of presentable, possibly not-too-bright and certainly ambitious princelings; I would give a chance to the cadet line of the Savoys (Savoia Aosta) and would keep in mind the guy I mentioned to you a couple of days ago: Ferdinand of Habsburg Lothringen, the last grand duke of Tuscany. I would really appreciate finding a local candidate for the throne of Bohemia.

Ohoh, the Dynastic Music Chair Game, the most preferred pastime of 18th-19th century diplomacy. How fascinating. This realignment creates a lof thrones to fill. Let's see:

Slovenia: your Ferdinanrd suggestion is fine.
Bosnia: a Savoy-Aosta, this is Italian turf.
Bohemia subkingdom: a high-ranking Czech noble, a "Radetzky".
Austria subkingdom: a cooperative Habsburg.
Hungary-Croatia: a German prince linked to the Hohenzollern, say an Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, this is German turf.
Montenegro: as OTL, or maybe a minor Italian noble.
Bulgaria: as OTL.
Serbia: as OTL.

Did I forget anyone ?
 
:eek:
Don't you know ? Mein Kampf was written by Arminius, plans for the Partition of Poland were written by a committee of Theodoric, Romolus Augustus, and Attila, and the first drafts for the Final Solution (of Poles; Jews always were an insignificant footnote, in comparison to the attempt to destroy the *real* Chosen People) were penned by Barbarossa.
:eek::rolleyes:;):p
LMAO. You just forgot Luther :D and also that Barbarossa is sleeping under a mountain but will wake up if Germany is in danger :eek:



True, however they would still be mightly interested into joining the ASE war coalition in order to free Cuba and Puerto Rico from the Boulangist yoke, only ITTL they would net the French Caribbean as well.
That might be a good point for the future: frankly I would prefer keeping the USA busy in the Western emisphere only


This is easily doable. I think some suitable Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen girl should be available for Umberto. And half a generation later William II could get a similarly nice Savoia-Aosta girl to improve him as well. The generation after that, the dynastic game can be expanded to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (however, given the already close breeding between them and the Hohenzollern main branch, some caution may be exercised here, even if a SCG-Savoy match would not have problems).

As an aside, I would say that another golden opportunity would arise by marrying one of the Dutch Queen Regnants with the Crown Prince of Germany or Britain. An Anglo-Dutch or German-Dutch personal union would be nifty to reinforce the alliance's standing in Western Europe, and I think Boulangism may make the Dutch people rather nervous, so they might welcome closer ties with the ASE.

Another thought: given that we said about the nature of the OC Church, and its likely quick ecumenic reconciliation with the Anglicans, that OC Catholics in the British Isles meet a far more positive opinion than Popish Catholics. This could hugely improve the situation in Ireland if the OC Church entrenches there and it spearheads a British-Irish reconciliation. Think, a successful Home Rule, which in due time blossoms into an Irish Dominion, no Irish War of Independence and Civil War, no IRA, no Troubles, and no hidebound Irish Catholic Church.
The prince of Wales married a Danish princess, IIRC.
It looks reasonable, even if I would prefer to avoid too much inbreeding.

Re Ireland you take obviously the rational approach: knowing the Irish, I would not be surprised if they kept the allegiance to the pope just out of spite :eek: If this happens, I can see the Irish having even a worse future ITTL (and the same thing would apply to the Polish too, which might very likely remain papists out of spite and anti-German feelings)

True, but remember, the only one to set up a good secret police, Nappy I, only fell because of military defeat, and so did his lukewarm nephew. In all likelihood Boulangism is going to go much, much farther than Nappy I ever did into setting up a police state. And that kind of regime is far more likely to go and export its impending economic and political trouble into aggressive wars for plunder and prestige, if MAD does not held them back. Say expansionism in Belgium, Portugal, Switzerland, colonial clashes with ASE into Africa or East Asia, etc.
I would submit that it is much easier to keep an amorphous mostly uneducated populace under a police state than it might be possible/productive in a developed country like France. Then I think a bit at what happened in OTL 20th, and .....:eek::eek:


Writer's block, here as well. :( Maybe a suitable alternative shall surface in due time, or a creative reader shall proffer.

As an aside, I think that ITTL some title change for countries and thrones may be in line. E.g. I totally expect Germany to change from "German Empire" to "Empire of Germany" once Austria and Bohemia are annexed to signify that all German lands and peoples have been united under it. Likewise, Italy, in order to highlight its irredentist-expansionist success after its gains from France, Austria, and in North Africa are netted, and to maintain parity with its German buddy, it might easily rename itself to "Empire of Italy". Of course, Britain is going to get its own Imperial title from the Indies in the 1870s, so the ASE would well be the "Dreikaiserbund", albeit of a wholly different, liberal bent, and with different actors. Russia, of course, had its hoary imperial title, but I wonder if this might push the Boulangists to claim one as well. France-Spain does look as a believable empire, of course, and they have their pet Pope to bestow titles on command, they might well resurrect the "Holy Roman Empire" title (of course, Germany and Italy shall scream murder for the usurpation).
I'm not really enthused by the idea: the British never went for a "real" imperial title (the important portion of the title was king of England, Wales etc.) and the same did the Italians (an unkind soul might say that OTL there was not much of an empire too, but that's not the point; the Germans did go for an imperial title, but it made sense since a number of kingdom and principalities were brought into it by treaty. Let it go, man.
I find it more believable to have the pope crowning the Carlist pretender as most catholic emperor and king of Spain and France.
 
Well, this is an interesting point. Assuming, as a rough estimate, that this war happens in the 1890s (and for semplicity, that it gets interwined with the Spanish-American War: certainly Americans are going to step in and kick the Boulangists out of the Caribbean at some point), this is a wholly different beast. The ACW and RJW show that to some amount trench warfare is possible before 1914, although it is not likely to be nowhere as dominant. It is way dubious whether the ASE would create a Plan Schliffen ITTL (they may or may not; on one hand, Britain amy dislike expandign the war to neutral Belgium; OTOH, if the Boulangists invaded it, or if London truly deems it necessary to win the war they may ask Belgium right of passage. France has its border on the Meuse, and on Nice and Savoy, so its border is less favorable to stage a successful defense, although I expect the Boulangists spent some efforts fortifying it (maybe not to a full extent, given they likely expect to go on the offensive and win by "elan").

This is to say that I cannot tell for certain whether a quick dispatch of France-Spain as in 1868 is likely. Some factors may it definitely possible, but given Spanish support, I would regard as wholly plausible too that initial offensives by both sides are stalemated in trench warfare, and the Boulangist are gradually bled down by overwhelming ASE numbers over six months to a year. BEF initial committment is going to shore up the Ottomans, the Portoguese, and the Belgians, I expect. Given slow British mobilization, I expect that troops for big landings in France and Spain are only available when Germans and Italians are well underway in grinding down the F-S with combined offensives, the landings would be the knockout punch. Afterwards, of course, it begins the relatively slow job of cutting down the Bear slice by slice another six months to a year. Serbia and Romania would go down as fast as IOTL or faster, esp. Serbia is going to be wholly encircled.
I can anticipate some kind of fortificated line being built, but - as you note - the French border is not very defensible.
There is also the overwhelming naval superiority of the ASE to be taken into account (granted that it's mostly British, but the other partners too will pull their weight) which would allow some freedom in planning amphibious operations and landings to bypass a possible stalemate on the borders. This is quite the case for a bridgehead west of Marseilles or in Gascony (in particular if the Basques show some stirring) as opposed to the more traditional landing points in Normandy or the Pas-de-Calais. I would assume that Russian mobilization would be quite slow, unless the war is planned well in advance. Even in this case though I would think that Russian mobilization can be discovered well in advance and proper countermeasures taken (and there is always the possibility of using Hungarians and Ottomans to take care of a couple of theaters such as the Danube and the Caucasus). The central position of German and Italy (which now share a border and should have good railway connections) and the above mentioned naval superiority should call for as well as allow a flexible strategy: if the Germans and Italians get stalemated, it's their fault. It might also start the other way around, with the Holy Alliance getting embroiled in Cuba with the USA, and the European theater starting later on. Lots of possibilities.


All true and good, except that I don't believe in the usefulness of partitioning nations that have a strong self-consciousness, see my point above. You may detach stuff like Catalonia and Brittany, but dividing the rest of France and Spain is going to be a nasty exercise in futility as the division of Germany was. Better a thorough "re-education" of those countries at gunpoint.
Catalonia and Brittany are almost a given; the Basques should also gain their own country - on both sides of the Pyrenees. I'd guess that Italy might go for the Balearic Islands (or at least some naval base there). Creating an Occitania in south-west France might be a bit too ambitious, but I would not discount it completely. Belgium would get French Flanders, but I would think twice before giving Flemish Flanders to the Netherlands. An allied occupation of what remains should take care of the situation in the immediate: how long troops will have to be stationed there will depend on the amount of guerrilla that the Boulangist/papists can manage to raise. My guess is not too much.


Well, he made some serious mistakes (but as our TL shows, he could have only acted differently in 1866 , which would have removed a lot of future problems, only if Italy had done its part), he picked the worst possible default allies in the Hasburg zombies, he did not left a legacy of a solid alliance with Italy and either Britain or Russia, he foolishly encouraged the worst traits in young William, he did not made what he could to snuff out the stirring of the naval craze.
IMHO, he got his zenith in 1870: after the proclamation of the empire, the chancellor lost somehow his vision and made a significant number of myopic decisions (supporting the Habsburgs and relying too much on Russia chief among them). I can accept that the sub-par performance of Italy in the 1866 war may have heavily influenced his subsequent strategy.


Thanks, I wish I was more skilled at map-making to make a suitable picture of post-Congress Europe. However, I think we are fast approaching the point where we have pretty much laid down the TL, at least until the post-Congress geopolitical lull of the late 1870s. A question for you, given that the Second Western Schism and the Boulangist takeover of France and Spain with all its nasty ideological antagonism shall be at full rage, not to mention that France is still recoving from the defeat and the Commune, does France take part in the Congress, and does the boulangist King and strongmen stomach to deal with the Germans and Italians ? As far as I can tell, 19th century diplomatic custom frowned on making a great power a pariah.
Don't look at me for maps: I'm all thumbs :D
France will certainly be invited to the Hague conference, but this time I do not see a Talleyrand on their side. There might be an invitation extended to the pope too, but just an observer, and he might refuse it out of pique.

On the TL progress I wholly agree with you. I was thinking that there is a possibility to have the Roman issue as a spark to ignite the G-I-F war. IOTL the Luxembourg crisis of 1867 was almost at the same time of the last Garibaldine attempt to free Rome: IOTL Garibaldi entered Latium with some 8,000 Volunteers at the end of October 1867, but the French had reinforced their forces in Rome and Garibaldi got a smack on the nose on his way to Rome and bottled up in the village of Mentana, where he was ultimately defeated by the French-papal forces. ITTL the start might be the same; however once Garibaldi is stopped on the way to Rome, an Italian army might come to the rescue and trounce the french-papaline forces again at Mentana, with the pope fleeing Rome on a French ship on the eve of italian entry in the city. Nappy would get a bloody nose just after the debacle in Mexico, and this might make him very reluctant to step back in the Luxembourg crisis; or he might decide to find some glory in putting the upstart Italians in their place. Whatever happens, the guarantee between Italy and Prussia would be invoked, and the ultimate result would be the same. Note also that IOTL the London conference on Luxembourg was mostly engineered through the efforts of the Austrian Foreign minister: ITTL the weight of A-H in diplomatic circles would be much less.


Ohoh, the Dynastic Music Chair Game, the most preferred pastime of 18th-19th century diplomacy. How fascinating. This realignment creates a lof thrones to fill. Let's see:

Slovenia: your Ferdinanrd suggestion is fine.
Bosnia: a Savoy-Aosta, this is Italian turf.
Bohemia subkingdom: a high-ranking Czech noble, a "Radetzky".
Austria subkingdom: a cooperative Habsburg.
Hungary-Croatia: a German prince linked to the Hohenzollern, say an Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, this is German turf.
Montenegro: as OTL, or maybe a minor Italian noble.
Bulgaria: as OTL.
Serbia: as OTL.

Did I forget anyone ?

It looks fine, with a caveat: I don't see a Habsburg prince (cooperative or not) on the Vienna throne. The same Habsburg might get the throne of Bohemia: if he's a minor even better, since there might be a council of regency under local nobles. The question is who's getting Austria: by preference it should be a Catholic prince, and not from Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (who're getting Hungary). Someone from the Wittelsbach? Otherwise the guy who got Bulgaria might be put on the Austrian throne, and another candidate for Bulgaria would be easier to find.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I can anticipate some kind of fortificated line being built, but - as you note - the French border is not very defensible.
There is also the overwhelming naval superiority of the ASE to be taken into account (granted that it's mostly British, but the other partners too will pull their weight) which would allow some freedom in planning amphibious operations and landings to bypass a possible stalemate on the borders. This is quite the case for a bridgehead west of Marseilles or in Gascony (in particular if the Basques show some stirring) as opposed to the more traditional landing points in Normandy or the Pas-de-Calais. I would assume that Russian mobilization would be quite slow, unless the war is planned well in advance. Even in this case though I would think that Russian mobilization can be discovered well in advance and proper countermeasures taken (and there is always the possibility of using Hungarians and Ottomans to take care of a couple of theaters such as the Danube and the Caucasus). The central position of German and Italy (which now share a border and should have good railway connections) and the above mentioned naval superiority should call for as well as allow a flexible strategy: if the Germans and Italians get stalemated, it's their fault. It might also start the other way around, with the Holy Alliance getting embroiled in Cuba with the USA, and the European theater starting later on. Lots of possibilities.

Yes, I can see your point why the ASE ought not to get stalemated in the Western front, and crush France relatively quickly. On second thoughts, however, there is also Spain to take care of, its presence gives rather more strategic depth and may stiffen the back of the Boulangists, so that they don't surrender when they lose the Paris-Lyon-Marseilles key triad, and most of France and Spain has to be swamped by ASE troops in order to get a surrender. Not to mention the fact that Boulangists are going to be even more stubborn about a surrender than 1868 French, probably getting close to Japanese levels. Of course, as we said, impending defeat is very likely to trigger revolutions in France and Spain alike, which would cripple the effectiveness of last-ditch defense. Nonetheless, when the ASE achieve a strategic breakthrough on French theater, they ought to start an operation to bring down Spain, too. I guess a combination of offensive from Portugal, a major landing in Catalonia and Valencia to exploit traditional Catalan restiveness. If these two offensives are done with sufficient numbers, while France is getting to its knees, they may be sufficient to bring down Spain, too, or maybe another landing in Andalusia may be warranted. As an aside, even if the bulk of the troops for these operations are British, I think the German-Italians can give some of theirs, too, since the ASE has most likely been in place for several years, when the big war war starts, I expect all kinds of military protocols for combined operations have been drawn by the High Staffs.

Nonetheless, even if the victory on the Western front would be reasonably quickly by lack of stalemate, and combined land-amphibious offensives (I think the ASE might even go for a double-punch landing in France, one in Normandy and one in Gascony or Languedoc, and another double-punch landing in Spain, Barcelon-Valancia and Andalucia, while I'm not convinced that landing in Calais would be all that beneficial for the ASE, the HA could easily rebuild a continous front by withdrawing from French Flanders; only if the HA and invaded Belgium and overrun most of it a landing in Calais would make real sense), I expect that Boulangist stubborness (even if ultimately limited by revolutions) and Franco-Spanish strategic depth would make at least six months, maybe nine, four in the best case necessary for complete victory in the Western front.

Factor at least another year at least to redeploy the bulk of ASE troops on the various Eastern fronts and wear down the Bear to submission. I expect Serbia and Romania to fare no better (rather worse, with Italy a major ASE player and attacking Serbia from Montenegro and Albania) than OTL, so the ASE would relatively quickly achieve a continous front from Poland to Bessarabia, where they can deploy their superior numbers when F-S goes down. Japan would pound in the Far East, and the Ottomans and ASE expeditionary coprs in the Caucasus, Persia, and Central Asia, even if those fronts could only play a secondary role, given the abominable logistics. The British can certainly lead the ASE in doing some landings in Ukraine and Estonia. General ASE advance would leventually cause Russian surrender, someplace between the Dnieper to the Don. And most likely a revolution in Russia, too. Even if the revolutions do not entirely make the job eaiser for the ASE, having Communist/Anarchist nests of subversion in great powers of theri borders would just spell a different kind of trouble for the ASE, so I think we have to factor another 3-4 months in France-Spain and 6-9 months in Russia for ASEoccupation troops shotting down revolutionaries and re-establishing order.

All in all, a General War much less exhausting and crippling than our WWI, but neither a war as limited as the middle 1800s ones that redrew the map of Europe. It would still have definite socio-economic, political, and cultural impact. Maybe the best comparison might be the European equivalent of the ACW, not crippling to society but game-changing. Especially if the war is followed by founding of some European integration, the comparison is apt, I would say.

Catalonia and Brittany are almost a given; the Basques should also gain their own country - on both sides of the Pyrenees. I'd guess that Italy might go for the Balearic Islands (or at least some naval base there).

Yes to all. Catalonia would also get Valencia, too. Italy may get the Balearic Islands. The Basques would indeed make a bid for independence across the Pyrenees, even if I am very suspicious they would be prone to abuse their independence as bad as the Serbs. I guess that in a few years the ASE/CoE woudl be froced to stage a "police action" intervention to curb down the ethnic cleansings of French and Spanish citizens.

Creating an Occitania in south-west France might be a bit too ambitious, but I would not discount it completely. Belgium would get French Flanders, but I would think twice before giving Flemish Flanders to the Netherlands.

I fear that French nation-building has gone so far that a separate Occitania would be devoid of any vitality, and a separate Aragon would be not really different. However, Roussillon may be given to Catalonia, Italy may easily take French Riviera up to Toulon. Maybe Switzerland, esp. if it becomes a belligerant, might take Franche-Comptee (if they do not fear upsetting their internal balance between nationalities, which is dubious). Why do you oppose returning Flemish Flanders to the Netherlands ? :confused:

An allied occupation of what remains should take care of the situation in the immediate: how long troops will have to be stationed there will depend on the amount of guerrilla that the Boulangist/papists can manage to raise. My guess is not too much.

As well as snuffing out the inevitable far left insurrections and various civil unrest, as well as restoring a semblance of order, would take severla months at least. Likely at least another year at least would be necessary to allow the bulk of occupation troops to be withdrawn.

IMHO, he got his zenith in 1870: after the proclamation of the empire, the chancellor lost somehow his vision and made a significant number of myopic decisions (supporting the Habsburgs and relying too much on Russia chief among them). I can accept that the sub-par performance of Italy in the 1866 war may have heavily influenced his subsequent strategy.

I think we are in full agreement here. As a matter of fact, this TL is IMHO a very good way to put good Otto back on the right track up to the end and go in the history books as Germany's most revered national hero.

By the way, I know it is a bit of a clichè PoD, but what if we butterfly better British-German relations in removing the petty quarrels between British and German physicians, and so Frederick III may get early and effective treatment for his throat cancer and hence survive. Contrary to period expectations, I think that a more Anglophile and successful Bismarck and Frederick could develop a better working relationship than Bismarck and William, allowing both to manage the entrenchment of the ASE and possibly the full course of the General War up to Otto's death in 1898. Frederick would most likely remain emperor up to the late 1910s-early 1920s, given his family's typical longevity, overseeing the entrenchment of the CoE.

Don't look at me for maps: I'm all thumbs :D

And I'm only able to make minor edits to existing maps. :( However, there is a broadly similar 1835 European map that a nice fellow did for my other TL, even the Balkan borders are all different. I shall give it a look to see if it can be edited into something adequate.

France will certainly be invited to the Hague conference, but this time I do not see a Talleyrand on their side.

Very true.

There might be an invitation extended to the pope too, but just an observer, and he might refuse it out of pique.

I think it would be far too provocative to Italy and Germany, and Britain and Russia would not support it, too. There is little precedent for it in the previous 1800s international congresses. I am not even sure that a papal representative took part in the Congress of Vienna, but even if he did, he was the wholly insignificant minor-country wallpaper. It would be too Middle-Age. Let the Boulangist King, strongman-Premier, and Foreign minister speak for him, too.

I was thinking that there is a possibility to have the Roman issue as a spark to ignite the G-I-F war. IOTL the Luxembourg crisis of 1867 was almost at the same time of the last Garibaldine attempt to free Rome: IOTL Garibaldi entered Latium with some 8,000 Volunteers at the end of October 1867, but the French had reinforced their forces in Rome and Garibaldi got a smack on the nose on his way to Rome and bottled up in the village of Mentana, where he was ultimately defeated by the French-papal forces. ITTL the start might be the same; however once Garibaldi is stopped on the way to Rome, an Italian army might come to the rescue and trounce the french-papaline forces again at Mentana, with the pope fleeing Rome on a French ship on the eve of italian entry in the city. Nappy would get a bloody nose just after the debacle in Mexico, and this might make him very reluctant to step back in the Luxembourg crisis; or he might decide to find some glory in putting the upstart Italians in their place. Whatever happens, the guarantee between Italy and Prussia would be invoked, and the ultimate result would be the same. Note also that IOTL the London conference on Luxembourg was mostly engineered through the efforts of the Austrian Foreign minister: ITTL the weight of A-H in diplomatic circles would be much less.

I had thought of the Mentana crisis, too, as a big step on the way to the F-G-I War, and I commend your idea. However, I would still use the Luxemburg Crisis, too, as a war trigger (because it allows Germany to claim it at the peace table). So I propose to use both Mentana and Luxemburg in rapid sequence as a double war trigger. Dates for both have to be moved around a bit, but nothing that cannot be easily done by butterflies.

Napoleon III makes his offer to buy Luxemburg, trying to capitalize on Bismarck secret half-true promises of support. Strong opposition by German nationalist public opinion binds him to intransigence. In the meanwhile, Garibaldi makes his move to liberate Latium form Papal yoke, he is largely successful at first (stronger following from big Italian success in 1866), so Italian kingdom does not intervene immediately, but France quickly dispatches a large expeditionary corps and kicks Garibaldi out, restoring Papal rule. Italian nationalist public opinion is incensed, turning wholly anti-French. Napoleon III is emboldened by the support of French catholics and nationalists and renews claims on Luxemburg, asking for the withdrawal of Prussian garrison from the grandduchy. Prussian and Italian governments wholly support each other to protest French claims on Luxemburg and French "occupation" of Rome. Half-hearted attempts by the other powers to call conference flounder in the heated atmopshere. The issue quickly escalates to a French declaration of war on Prussia, immediately followed by an Italian declaration of war on France. Britain and Russia frown on apparent renewal of Napoleonic expansionism, so they remain neutral. Austria, given its sorry state from the 1866 crushing defeat, makes clumsy half-hearted attempts to support France, but the wave of patriotic German nationalism that follows French declaration of war sweeps Austria, too, stalemating such attempts and seeding the first stirrings of the anti-Habsburg revolution. When war starts, Italian troops invade Latium and kick out the Pope and the French garrison.

It looks fine, with a caveat: I don't see a Habsburg prince (cooperative or not) on the Vienna throne. The same Habsburg might get the throne of Bohemia: if he's a minor even better, since there might be a council of regency under local nobles. The question is who's getting Austria: by preference it should be a Catholic prince, and not from Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (who're getting Hungary). Someone from the Wittelsbach? Otherwise the guy who got Bulgaria might be put on the Austrian throne, and another candidate for Bulgaria would be easier to find.

Hmm, I see your reasoning, but then I think that putting a Wittelsbach on the thrones of Bavaria and Austria alike would be frowned upon by the Prussians, it would make them too strong within the German Empire.

Following your other suggestion, we may rearrange the dynastic list as follows:

Slovenia: your Ferdinand suggestion is fine.
Bosnia: a Savoy-Aosta.
Bohemia subkingdom: a cooperative Habsburg.
Austria subkingdom: Alexander of Battenberg.
Hungary-Croatia: a Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.
Montenegro: as OTL, or maybe a minor Italian noble.
Bulgaria: a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (maybe the same fellow that took throne after Alexander).
Serbia: as OTL.
 
Yes, I can see your point why the ASE ought not to get stalemated in the Western front, and crush France relatively quickly. On second thoughts, however, there is also Spain to take care of, its presence gives rather more strategic depth and may stiffen the back of the Boulangists, so that they don't surrender when they lose the Paris-Lyon-Marseilles key triad, and most of France and Spain has to be swamped by ASE troops in order to get a surrender. Not to mention the fact that Boulangists are going to be even more stubborn about a surrender than 1868 French, probably getting close to Japanese levels. Of course, as we said, impending defeat is very likely to trigger revolutions in France and Spain alike, which would cripple the effectiveness of last-ditch defense. Nonetheless, when the ASE achieve a strategic breakthrough on French theater, they ought to start an operation to bring down Spain, too. I guess a combination of offensive from Portugal, a major landing in Catalonia and Valencia to exploit traditional Catalan restiveness. If these two offensives are done with sufficient numbers, while France is getting to its knees, they may be sufficient to bring down Spain, too, or maybe another landing in Andalusia may be warranted. As an aside, even if the bulk of the troops for these operations are British, I think the German-Italians can give some of theirs, too, since the ASE has most likely been in place for several years, when the big war war starts, I expect all kinds of military protocols for combined operations have been drawn by the High Staffs.

Nonetheless, even if the victory on the Western front would be reasonably quickly by lack of stalemate, and combined land-amphibious offensives (I think the ASE might even go for a double-punch landing in France, one in Normandy and one in Gascony or Languedoc, and another double-punch landing in Spain, Barcelon-Valancia and Andalucia, while I'm not convinced that landing in Calais would be all that beneficial for the ASE, the HA could easily rebuild a continous front by withdrawing from French Flanders; only if the HA and invaded Belgium and overrun most of it a landing in Calais would make real sense), I expect that Boulangist stubborness (even if ultimately limited by revolutions) and Franco-Spanish strategic depth would make at least six months, maybe nine, four in the best case necessary for complete victory in the Western front.

Factor at least another year at least to redeploy the bulk of ASE troops on the various Eastern fronts and wear down the Bear to submission. I expect Serbia and Romania to fare no better (rather worse, with Italy a major ASE player and attacking Serbia from Montenegro and Albania) than OTL, so the ASE would relatively quickly achieve a continous front from Poland to Bessarabia, where they can deploy their superior numbers when F-S goes down. Japan would pound in the Far East, and the Ottomans and ASE expeditionary coprs in the Caucasus, Persia, and Central Asia, even if those fronts could only play a secondary role, given the abominable logistics. The British can certainly lead the ASE in doing some landings in Ukraine and Estonia. General ASE advance would leventually cause Russian surrender, someplace between the Dnieper to the Don. And most likely a revolution in Russia, too. Even if the revolutions do not entirely make the job eaiser for the ASE, having Communist/Anarchist nests of subversion in great powers of theri borders would just spell a different kind of trouble for the ASE, so I think we have to factor another 3-4 months in France-Spain and 6-9 months in Russia for ASEoccupation troops shotting down revolutionaries and re-establishing order.

All in all, a General War much less exhausting and crippling than our WWI, but neither a war as limited as the middle 1800s ones that redrew the map of Europe. It would still have definite socio-economic, political, and cultural impact. Maybe the best comparison might be the European equivalent of the ACW, not crippling to society but game-changing. Especially if the war is followed by founding of some European integration, the comparison is apt, I would say.
Good point about the little benefit of a landing near Calais. I think that the Franco-Spaniards will try to create some incident (if not an outright invasion) in Belgium and French Switzerland.
The point to be remembered is that the war will mostly be fought in the heartlands of the Holy Alliance. This - as well as the shorter duration of the war - should ensure that there will be no dramatic and negative effect on the victors too. It will take an integrated High Command (which should be available by the 1890s) to exploit the benefits of the naval superiority and avoid head-butting in the trenches: one does not need a Caesar or a Napoleon, though. Just a bunch of generals not totally devoid of common sense.


Yes to all. Catalonia would also get Valencia, too. Italy may get the Balearic Islands. The Basques would indeed make a bid for independence across the Pyrenees, even if I am very suspicious they would be prone to abuse their independence as bad as the Serbs. I guess that in a few years the ASE/CoE woudl be froced to stage a "police action" intervention to curb down the ethnic cleansings of French and Spanish citizens.
The Basques should not yet be bitter and nihilists as the OTL, post Spanish CW Basques. I would rather envisage a good result out of the creation of this Basque state, which would also have no additional claims, btw.


I fear that French nation-building has gone so far that a separate Occitania would be devoid of any vitality, and a separate Aragon would be not really different. However, Roussillon may be given to Catalonia, Italy may easily take French Riviera up to Toulon. Maybe Switzerland, esp. if it becomes a belligerant, might take Franche-Comptee (if they do not fear upsetting their internal balance between nationalities, which is dubious). Why do you oppose returning Flemish Flanders to the Netherlands ? :confused:
Yes, France is too well knit by the end of the 19th century and Occitania is just a dream :( No way that the Swiss will take additional french speaking lands to upset the internal balance: by that token, it would be more easy to create a small Burgundy (but again, it's just a dream). Fully in support of a Catalan Roussillon and of an Italian Riviera up to Toulon. No comment of the suggestion to award Galicia to Portugal?
The reason I want to keep the catholic Flemish in Belgium is to avoid creating a small France just north of the big France.


As well as snuffing out the inevitable far left insurrections and various civil unrest, as well as restoring a semblance of order, would take severla months at least. Likely at least another year at least would be necessary to allow the bulk of occupation troops to be withdrawn.
One year is peanuts: what I am not looking for is a kind of Iraq-on-the-Seine :D I would also expect that the AES will keep military bases in France and Spain for at least a decade.


I think we are in full agreement here. As a matter of fact, this TL is IMHO a very good way to put good Otto back on the right track up to the end and go in the history books as Germany's most revered national hero.

By the way, I know it is a bit of a clichè PoD, but what if we butterfly better British-German relations in removing the petty quarrels between British and German physicians, and so Frederick III may get early and effective treatment for his throat cancer and hence survive. Contrary to period expectations, I think that a more Anglophile and successful Bismarck and Frederick could develop a better working relationship than Bismarck and William, allowing both to manage the entrenchment of the ASE and possibly the full course of the General War up to Otto's death in 1898. Frederick would most likely remain emperor up to the late 1910s-early 1920s, given his family's typical longevity, overseeing the entrenchment of the CoE.
Why not? It means also that young Wilhelm is kept from the throne for another 20 years, which is good if you ask me.



I think it would be far too provocative to Italy and Germany, and Britain and Russia would not support it, too. There is little precedent for it in the previous 1800s international congresses. I am not even sure that a papal representative took part in the Congress of Vienna, but even if he did, he was the wholly insignificant minor-country wallpaper. It would be too Middle-Age. Let the Boulangist King, strongman-Premier, and Foreign minister speak for him, too.
The pope had a cardinal legate attending the Congress of Vienna in addition to the papal nuncio in Austria. He was always kept out of the "group of eight" discussions and mostly had to beg the catholic powers to intercede on his behalf. Possibly the papal politics of the last 20 years will have him discredited enough to avoid the need of inviting him as an observer.


I had thought of the Mentana crisis, too, as a big step on the way to the F-G-I War, and I commend your idea. However, I would still use the Luxemburg Crisis, too, as a war trigger (because it allows Germany to claim it at the peace table). So I propose to use both Mentana and Luxemburg in rapid sequence as a double war trigger. Dates for both have to be moved around a bit, but nothing that cannot be easily done by butterflies.

Napoleon III makes his offer to buy Luxemburg, trying to capitalize on Bismarck secret half-true promises of support. Strong opposition by German nationalist public opinion binds him to intransigence. In the meanwhile, Garibaldi makes his move to liberate Latium form Papal yoke, he is largely successful at first (stronger following from big Italian success in 1866), so Italian kingdom does not intervene immediately, but France quickly dispatches a large expeditionary corps and kicks Garibaldi out, restoring Papal rule. Italian nationalist public opinion is incensed, turning wholly anti-French. Napoleon III is emboldened by the support of French catholics and nationalists and renews claims on Luxemburg, asking for the withdrawal of Prussian garrison from the grandduchy. Prussian and Italian governments wholly support each other to protest French claims on Luxemburg and French "occupation" of Rome. Half-hearted attempts by the other powers to call conference flounder in the heated atmopshere. The issue quickly escalates to a French declaration of war on Prussia, immediately followed by an Italian declaration of war on France. Britain and Russia frown on apparent renewal of Napoleonic expansionism, so they remain neutral. Austria, given its sorry state from the 1866 crushing defeat, makes clumsy half-hearted attempts to support France, but the wave of patriotic German nationalism that follows French declaration of war sweeps Austria, too, stalemating such attempts and seeding the first stirrings of the anti-Habsburg revolution. When war starts, Italian troops invade Latium and kick out the Pope and the French garrison.
I am still thinking that a Garibaldi saved in the nick of time is still more romantic, but I do not have any special opposition to your alternative scenario. Why however you want Napoleon declaring war on Prussia? I would expect him to declare war on Italy, trying at the same time to keep negotiations with Prussia alive: it would be a more sensible approach (not that it would save his bacon, anyway)


Hmm, I see your reasoning, but then I think that putting a Wittelsbach on the thrones of Bavaria and Austria alike would be frowned upon by the Prussians, it would make them too strong within the German Empire.

Following your other suggestion, we may rearrange the dynastic list as follows:

Slovenia: your Ferdinand suggestion is fine.
Bosnia: a Savoy-Aosta.
Bohemia subkingdom: a cooperative Habsburg.
Austria subkingdom: Alexander of Battenberg.
Hungary-Croatia: a Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.
Montenegro: as OTL, or maybe a minor Italian noble.
Bulgaria: a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (maybe the same fellow that took throne after Alexander).
Serbia: as OTL.

Very good. Carol will still be on the throne in Romania. And obviously Serbia will need a new dinasty after the war. Montenegro will also keep his prince for now; after the war we'll see.
Btw, the Franco-Spanish union will be dissolved after the war. If the king has not been too controversial he might be allowed to keep the throne of a (reduced) Spain; France will go back to a republican style, though.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I think that the Franco-Spaniards will try to create some incident (if not an outright invasion) in Belgium and French Switzerland.

Both for expansionistic purposes (and I expect the same to happen in Portugal) and to try and achieve a strategic breakthrough when their "elan" initial offensives against G-I territory fail.

The point to be remembered is that the war will mostly be fought in the heartlands of the Holy Alliance. This - as well as the shorter duration of the war - should ensure that there will be no dramatic and negative effect on the victors too. It will take an integrated High Command (which should be available by the 1890s) to exploit the benefits of the naval superiority and avoid head-butting in the trenches: one does not need a Caesar or a Napoleon, though. Just a bunch of generals not totally devoid of common sense.

Well, one should never underestimate the ability of Belle Epoque generals to learn the lessons of modern warfare as slowly and painstakingly as possible and get painful lessons in the trenches as a result. Our WWI was an eloquent demonstration, and such lessons were available as the ACW for those who had eyes to see. As such I expect some head-butting in the trenches to happen, but as we said, the ASE has abundant ways to break out of it realtively quickly, too. Yes, I do too expect that an integrated High Command will be established and that will help. This war shall have too many different forces and theaters to coordinate.

The Basques should not yet be bitter and nihilists as the OTL, post Spanish CW Basques. I would rather envisage a good result out of the creation of this Basque state, which would also have no additional claims, btw.

Hmm, I'm not too sure about Basque nationalism behaving nice. Remember, they were the backbone behind the Carlist Wars, where the Carlists enthused killed PoWs and stuff, and ITTL Spanish Boulangism. I see them (ab)using their independence not really better than OTL Serbs.

Yes, France is too well knit by the end of the 19th century and Occitania is just a dream :( No way that the Swiss will take additional french speaking lands to upset the internal balance: by that token, it would be more easy to create a small Burgundy (but again, it's just a dream).

What can't be done, can't be done. :(

Fully in support of a Catalan Roussillon and of an Italian Riviera up to Toulon.

Welcome to Italy, budding industrial giant and most preferred tourist resort of EUrope (the Riviera, the Balearic Islands, Dalmatia, its OTL stuff :D).

No comment of the suggestion to award Galicia to Portugal?

Sorry, I hadn't noticed it. Fine with me. :eek::)

The reason I want to keep the catholic Flemish in Belgium is to avoid creating a small France just north of the big France.

Makes sense.

One year is peanuts: what I am not looking for is a kind of Iraq-on-the-Seine :D I would also expect that the AES will keep military bases in France and Spain for at least a decade.

Well, some kind of low-key nationalist guerrilla by IRA-like fringes might or might not happen, but likely nothing as bad as Iraq. Most likely the vast majority of the French and Spanish are shell-shocked by total defeat and revolution like post-WW2 Germans. After all, this has been the second (third if you count Napoleon I) time in a century that France tried the nationalist-expansionist assault to Europe (and third time Spain tried the Carlist experiment, this time to consummation), it always utterly failed with increasingly disastrous consequences. Many people ought to start getting the idea that way lies the utter destruction of their country.

Why not? It means also that young Wilhelm is kept from the throne for another 20 years, which is good if you ask me.

Well, given that his father lived to a ripe 91 y.o. and his son to 82 y.o., I think it is wholly reasonable that a cancer-less Frederick III would live up to 80-85 y.o. at least. Which would take William from the throne up to 1911-1915 at least. Very good indeed, esp. because the AES system, the Great War, the foundation of the new European system, would all be done before he takes the reins. Hopefully waiting out an extra generation smoothens some of his worst character fauts. It worked with Edward VII.

The pope had a cardinal legate attending the Congress of Vienna in addition to the papal nuncio in Austria. He was always kept out of the "group of eight" discussions and mostly had to beg the catholic powers to intercede on his behalf. Possibly the papal politics of the last 20 years will have him discredited enough to avoid the need of inviting him as an observer.

Very true. Moreover, papal representatives never took part in the European congresses after the Congress of Vienna. Besides, Germany and Italy would oppose their presence in Hague and I assume Britain and Russia would humor them in this. The Pope would have to let France-Spain intercede on his behalf, again.

I am still thinking that a Garibaldi saved in the nick of time is still more romantic, but I do not have any special opposition to your alternative scenario.

Well, the Garibaldi legend was made up of clever escapes as much as it was of daring victories. He was able to make a good retreat from OTL Mentana, in all likelihood he does so ITTL as well. It would be just a temporary setback, in a few weeks or months at worst he's back with a vengeance, takes part in the liberation of Rome, and/or immediately later leads another one of his successful volunteer corps to fight in Southeastern France. IOTL he fought on the side of republican France, and was the only undefeated French general, ITTL he would fight on the side of Italy of course and reap even more success. He might easily take part in the liberation of his birthplace, Nice, that would enthuse him as much as the liberation of Rome.

Why however you want Napoleon declaring war on Prussia? I would expect him to declare war on Italy, trying at the same time to keep negotiations with Prussia alive: it would be a more sensible approach (not that it would save his bacon, anyway)

Well, sensible calculations would not really factor in Nappy's mindset at this point. It was all about foolhardy overevaluation of France's ability to crush Prussian (or ITTL, Prussian-Italian) rise in one swift stroke and reaffirm French hegemony in Western Europe. It does not really matter as you point out, I just fancy the Luxemburg crisis to be part of the casus belli so that Germany can rightfully claim it after the war, one less useless microstate in Europe that instead finds its way to its proper national unification. And Nappy III's DoW on Prussia stokes the flames of German nationalism, burns down the hesitations of southern German states and greases the slope of Habsburg downfall.

Although I copcede that as long as the Luxemburg crisis fans those flames, it does not really matter if France starts the dance DoWing Italy instead, it is a patriotic defensive war in the eyes of German nationalists all the way, Napoleonic France on the ride to dominate Germany and Italy all over again.

Very good. Carol will still be on the throne in Romania. And obviously Serbia will need a new dinasty after the war. Montenegro will also keep his prince for now; after the war we'll see.

Full agreement here.

Btw, the Franco-Spanish union will be dissolved after the war. If the king has not been too controversial he might be allowed to keep the throne of a (reduced) Spain; France will go back to a republican style, though.

Indeed. The union would be seen and rejected as part of the nasty work of the Boulangists. By itself, it was a sensible idea, too bad it was put intopractice by a rotten regime.
 

Eurofed

Banned
That might be a good point for the future: frankly I would prefer keeping the USA busy in the Western emisphere only.

Well that can't be really done entirely, the West Coast ensures that Pacific and East Asia shall be its second most important area of strategic projection. However, one can easily rearrange things so that America is more focused in the New World. One could start with a butterfly that leads to the annexation of the Dominican Republic in 1870 (one more vote in the Senate), and/or more successful Fenian Raids lead to US annexation or purchase of western Canada, followed by annexation of Cuba and Puerto Rico in the Great War, later intervention in the Mexican Revolution with annexation of northern Mexico, and so on.

The prince of Wales married a Danish princess, IIRC.
It looks reasonable, even if I would prefer to avoid too much inbreeding.

Which would discourage further marriages between the SCG and the Hohenzollern for at least another couple generations, at least among the descendants of Frederick III, I agree. However, this does not bar marriages between the SCG and the Savoy, or cadet Hohenzollern branches for that matter. I fully expect that British Parliament and public would swiftly come to see liberal Old Catholic faith as not really different from Anglican one, and so fancy the dynasty marrying into the Savoys.

Re Ireland you take obviously the rational approach: knowing the Irish, I would not be surprised if they kept the allegiance to the pope just out of spite :eek: If this happens, I can see the Irish having even a worse future ITTL (and the same thing would apply to the Polish too, which might very likely remain papists out of spite and anti-German feelings).

Well, as much as I would have liked to butterfly the Irish and the Poles to have a better outcome, I fear you might be right, they could easily stick to Popism as a way to snub the British and the Germans. Wholly their self-harmful loss, however. This would just mean not only that they remain even more of the hidebound social backwater than IOTL, they are going to pick religious-fueled antagonism with the future leaders of Europe. More IRA-like troubles and an even more blood-soaked path to Irish independence, Poland becoming a Serbia-like hotbed of nasty and violent nationalism that needs to be put down hard. Both nations remains resentful isolationist-nationalist backwaters, quite possibly suffering CoE "police actions" if they step too much of line (e.g. by sponsoring nationalist terrorism). Oh well.

I would submit that it is much easier to keep an amorphous mostly uneducated populace under a police state than it might be possible/productive in a developed country like France. Then I think a bit at what happened in OTL 20th, and .....:eek::eek:

You see my point. ;)

I'm not really enthused by the idea: the British never went for a "real" imperial title (the important portion of the title was king of England, Wales etc.) and the same did the Italians (an unkind soul might say that OTL there was not much of an empire too, but that's not the point; the Germans did go for an imperial title, but it made sense since a number of kingdom and principalities were brought into it by treaty. Let it go, man.
I find it more believable to have the pope crowning the Carlist pretender as most catholic emperor and king of Spain and France.

Well, I agree to the point as it concerns Britain, but I still see Italy claiming the Imperial title sooner or later as a way of highlighting its TTL success (much greater than OTL) and affirming diplomatic parity with their German buddies. As it concerns Spain-France, good idea, but "most catholic/christian emperor" of what ? What's the predicate ? :confused:
 
Well that can't be really done entirely, the West Coast ensures that Pacific and East Asia shall be its second most important area of strategic projection. However, one can easily rearrange things so that America is more focused in the New World. One could start with a butterfly that leads to the annexation of the Dominican Republic in 1870 (one more vote in the Senate), and/or more successful Fenian Raids lead to US annexation or purchase of western Canada, followed by annexation of Cuba and Puerto Rico in the Great War, later intervention in the Mexican Revolution with annexation of northern Mexico, and so on.
That's one way of looking at things. The other one is to have a kind of corollary to the Monroe doctrine: foreign powers will be kept out of the New World, and by the same token the USA will not look for expansions/adventures/entanglements outside of it. It plays well with the latent American isolationism and it's a kind of "holier than thou" that really should be gobbled up by the unwashed public. Central and South America would be open season anyway, so it's not too much of a sacrifice (and possibly it would be a winner in the long run). It's also a way not to have the run-of-the-mill "America conquers the world" TL :D


Which would discourage further marriages between the SCG and the Hohenzollern for at least another couple generations, at least among the descendants of Frederick III, I agree. However, this does not bar marriages between the SCG and the Savoy, or cadet Hohenzollern branches for that matter. I fully expect that British Parliament and public would swiftly come to see liberal Old Catholic faith as not really different from Anglican one, and so fancy the dynasty marrying into the Savoys.
Matter of fact, the differences between anglicans and old catholics have to be found with a microscope :D
On a separate topic, I'd believe that a monarchy should have a law passed to the effect that the heir has to marry a commoner every two or three generations :p


Well, as much as I would have liked to butterfly the Irish and the Poles to have a better outcome, I fear you might be right, they could easily stick to Popism as a way to snub the British and the Germans. Wholly their self-harmful loss, however. This would just mean not only that they remain even more of the hidebound social backwater than IOTL, they are going to pick religious-fueled antagonism with the future leaders of Europe. More IRA-like troubles and an even more blood-soaked path to Irish independence, Poland becoming a Serbia-like hotbed of nasty and violent nationalism that needs to be put down hard. Both nations remains resentful isolationist-nationalist backwaters, quite possibly suffering CoE "police actions" if they step too much of line (e.g. by sponsoring nationalist terrorism). Oh well.
I see a better future for the Poles (who have to play the role of keeping the reduced Russia at bay in the north): an independent Poland will certainly be borne after the next war and this might do well to mend old fences. It would also be a kind of poetical justice: a Prussian king was instrumental to set up the partition of polan and a Prussian king will restore it. Corny, but not too much :D



Well, I agree to the point as it concerns Britain, but I still see Italy claiming the Imperial title sooner or later as a way of highlighting its TTL success (much greater than OTL) and affirming diplomatic parity with their German buddies. As it concerns Spain-France, good idea, but "most catholic/christian emperor" of what ? What's the predicate ? :confused:
Maybe an Italian Empire after a few more annexations?
The "most catholic emperor" was left hanging in the hope you might have a bright idea for the predicate :p
At worst it might be the "Holy and Catholic Roman Empire" or the Catholic Empire of France and Spain (both titles are a bit lame, I know :(

Looks like we are on the same page for the TL. What next?
 
Hm..."Emperor of the Latins"? Nice ring, covers France and Spain. Might be too novel, also might annoy Italy (not that these reactionaries will care, of course). "Holy Roman Emperor"? Nice title, traditional, arguably French in the first place. Liable to seriously annoy Germany though, also rather ironic considering the Napoleonic attitude towards same.
 

Eurofed

Banned
That's one way of looking at things. The other one is to have a kind of corollary to the Monroe doctrine: foreign powers will be kept out of the New World, and by the same token the USA will not look for expansions/adventures/entanglements outside of it. It plays well with the latent American isolationism and it's a kind of "holier than thou" that really should be gobbled up by the unwashed public. Central and South America would be open season anyway, so it's not too much of a sacrifice (and possibly it would be a winner in the long run). It's also a way not to have the run-of-the-mill "America conquers the world" TL :D

Well, I have already an "America conquers one-third of the world" running :D:cool:;)

so I would not try to duplicate it here (even if I wrote a Congress of Vienna PoD in my other TL that creates a broadly similar result for Germany and Italy, but it wanks Russia as well, all part of the master plan to create an "Eurasia" as a balance to US "Oceania"). No, I was aiming to keep the USA mostly focused in the New World by giving them a sizable but rather more limited break in the late 1800s. It would be a nice balance to the success of the UK-GE-IT bloc. Say getting western Canada, northern Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, and Nicaragua. UK is rather more successful in the Old World here, winning WWI with much less effort and quite possibly butterflying away WWII as well, which makes the British Empire more longeve and aging more gracefully, as well as making the UK one of the three leaders of an EU embracing Russia, the Middle East, and North Africa as well. Certainly the loss of western Canada is a little price for that ;) Such a bit more successful "manifest destiny" would be a good justification for America remaing mostly focused in the New World.

Matter of fact, the differences between anglicans and old catholics have to be found with a microscope :D

So they would enjoy the same legal and social position. Nifty. OTOH, "Popist" Catholics would be burdened with even much social prejudice and possibly more legal limitations (as many would come to see them as a fifth column during the build-up to WWI). :D

On a separate topic, I'd believe that a monarchy should have a law passed to the effect that the heir has to marry a commoner every two or three generations :p

Well, our 21st century surviving monarchies have reached that level and more besides (I struggle to remember one case among the current crop of princes and princesses not marrying a commoner, of course, upper-class commoners typically), so I trust your wish would be satisfied ITTL as well.

I see a better future for the Poles (who have to play the role of keeping the reduced Russia at bay in the north): an independent Poland will certainly be borne after the next war and this might do well to mend old fences. It would also be a kind of poetical justice: a Prussian king was instrumental to set up the partition of polan and a Prussian king will restore it. Corny, but not too much :D

Oh, of course there shall be such an outcome for Poland after the General War. I was just worrying that entrenchment of "Popism" in Poland and Ireland would make those countries more socially backward, delaying their economic and political development as well. Moreover, I was also worrying that religious antagonism between them and Germany and Britain could fuel lingering nationalistic antagonism. E.g. even worse than OTL Troubles in Ulster, and/or similar problems in Posen.

Maybe an Italian Empire after a few more annexations?

And/or victory in the Great War.

The "most catholic emperor" was left hanging in the hope you might have a bright idea for the predicate :p
At worst it might be the "Holy and Catholic Roman Empire" or the Catholic Empire of France and Spain (both titles are a bit lame, I know :(

Hmm, what about "Holy Catholic Western Roman Empire" ? It has an historical basis, gives a (vague) geographical delimitation, and PO Germany and Italy equally. :p;)
 
Well, I have already an "America conquers one-third of the world" running :D:cool:;)
I am reading it, even if I have not posted. Nice TL, and the Congress of Vienna POD is not ASB. IMHO it would have been even more likely if Napoleon had not managed to go for his "100 days", or if his exploit had been cut short.
The other possible criticism is that you appear to have increeased the IQ of Murat by half at least :p From whatever I read about the guy it looks like he never needed or used his brain, just his balls and guts.

so I would not try to duplicate it here (even if I wrote a Congress of Vienna PoD in my other TL that creates a broadly similar result for Germany and Italy, but it wanks Russia as well, all part of the master plan to create an "Eurasia" as a balance to US "Oceania"). No, I was aiming to keep the USA mostly focused in the New World by giving them a sizable but rather more limited break in the late 1800s. It would be a nice balance to the success of the UK-GE-IT bloc. Say getting western Canada, northern Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, and Nicaragua. UK is rather more successful in the Old World here, winning WWI with much less effort and quite possibly butterflying away WWII as well, which makes the British Empire more longeve and aging more gracefully, as well as making the UK one of the three leaders of an EU embracing Russia, the Middle East, and North Africa as well. Certainly the loss of western Canada is a little price for that ;) Such a bit more successful "manifest destiny" would be a good justification for America remaing mostly focused in the New World.
Do USA really need western Canada? IMHO the huge changes in the European balance of power will have a significant impact on migration flows too, in particular for what concerns Italy. OTOH there might be a compensation in increased emigration from France, Spain and - possibly - the Balkans. It is however doubtful if the overall migration flows will match OTL, and if the USA will take a lion's share of them. Although there might be possible compensations by assuming a larger early internal migration of the freed slaves from the South toward the North and the West (which would not be a bad thing). The migration flows from France (post-defeat in the 1890s war) will target Louisiana and Quebec in the north, Brasil and Argentina in the south, while the Spaniards might be more attracted to the west coast of south America. Which begs the question: is Quebec becoming independent, maybe as a satellite of the USA? And what's going to happen in Brazil and Argentina? Maybe the former stays an empire and either of them (or both?) gets enmeshed with the Holy Alliance, pulling down the retribution from the big northern brother?


So they would enjoy the same legal and social position. Nifty. OTOH, "Popist" Catholics would be burdened with even much social prejudice and possibly more legal limitations (as many would come to see them as a fifth column during the build-up to WWI). :D
That would be possible not just in Europe but in Canada and in the USA too. A bad TL for being Irish :(


Well, our 21st century surviving monarchies have reached that level and more besides (I struggle to remember one case among the current crop of princes and princesses not marrying a commoner, of course, upper-class commoners typically), so I trust your wish would be satisfied ITTL as well.

:):)

Oh, of course there shall be such an outcome for Poland after the General War. I was just worrying that entrenchment of "Popism" in Poland and Ireland would make those countries more socially backward, delaying their economic and political development as well. Moreover, I was also worrying that religious antagonism between them and Germany and Britain could fuel lingering nationalistic antagonism. E.g. even worse than OTL Troubles in Ulster, and/or similar problems in Posen.
IMHO the Polish might manage it: getting again their own country (even if "under parole") would do a lot for them. As I said above, I don't see any happy end for the Irish


And/or victory in the Great War.
Problem is that there is always the "Roman precedent": either one calls it "the Roman empire" (and must have suitable assets in the Mediterranean and in the Balkans to justify the name) or it's better to stick with "kingdom of Italy". Even "Greater Italy" leaves a taste like "greater Rurithania" :eek::eek:


Hmm, what about "Holy Catholic Western Roman Empire" ? It has an historical basis, gives a (vague) geographical delimitation, and PO Germany and Italy equally. :p;)
Maybe the problem is solved more simply: the comte de Chambord is too set in his ways to look for a title either than "king of France", obviously by the grace of God (what has the will of the people to do with it?). The Carlist successor will be happy as "king of France and Spain", and again it will not look for a different title. OTOH, it's quite possible that the regime will look for ancient glories to recycle (a bit like Wilhelmine Germany, but more stressed) and will try to depict the Holy Alliance as a legitimate successor of the empire of Charlemagne and Charles V: everything will be in any case for internal consumption only (or maybe for export to Francophone lands and to South America). I might also bet that any imperial title assumed by the Franco-Spanish king will not be recognised by the international diplomacy, so what's the point?
 

Eurofed

Banned
I am reading it, even if I have not posted. Nice TL, and the Congress of Vienna POD is not ASB. IMHO it would have been even more likely if Napoleon had not managed to go for his "100 days", or if his exploit had been cut short.

Well, it is funny you say this, because back when I was developing the PoD, the harshest criticism I got was that Russia and Prussia were not going to win, without the return of Napoleon messing up the opposite coalition. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, it seems. :p

Since for the proper development of the TL it is was vital that Austria be steamrolled and crippled, I went and put things without question, by having Nappy making his usual shenanigans. And honestly, I think it more likely this way, than without the Two Hundred Days.

The other possible criticism is that you appear to have increeased the IQ of Murat by half at least :p From whatever I read about the guy it looks like he never needed or used his brain, just his balls and guts.

I gave the man a break, letting the breakup of the anti-Napoleonic coalition give him a much-needed epiphany about whom his best allies would be (clue: not the power that has staked a turf in the area where your kingdom lies) and letting things flow naturally from that choice. For all his flaws, Murat was the by far best candidate to manage a successful Italian unification and modernization than the rest of Italian princes, an hopeless bunch of ultra-reactionary Habsbug pawns, until Cavour showed up.

Do USA really need western Canada?

Strictly needed, no, of course, just like does not need northern Mexico or half the Caribbean. But the package would be a really nice and nifty butterfly to buffer up America a bit, while the main PoD wanks Europe under the AES hegemony. The British Empire is going to be very successful overall ITTL anyway (or at least as much as successful as decolonization shall allow), it does not really need western Canada.

In addition to the main 1866 PoD, we may have an auxiliary one in America, by which the US give a little more covert support to the Fenian Raids, which are better equipped and organzied, and rather more successful. This leads to large swaths of Canada falling into unrest, as well as Britain and America undergoing a period of military tension. War is ultimately avoided by a compromise. America stops support to the Fenians, Britain agrees to sell Rupert's Land, the North-Western Territory, and Columbia District to the US. To satisfy British concerns about the security of Canada, Britain keeps those portions of Rupert's Land that lie northward of future Ontario and Quebec, and leases Vancouver Island for 99 years. The success of this land gain not just gives additional support for the purchase of Alaska, to solidify US control on the western hlaf of North America, but it moves the US Senate to approve the annexation of the Dominican Republic as well. Later, during the Great War, America joins the ASE side and annexes Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the French Caribbean. They may be inspired to buy some extra chunks of the European possessions in the Caribbean, such as British and Dutch Guianas. When the Mexican Revolution occurs, they are unburdened by concerns in Europe, so they step in, "restore order", annex northern Mexico and turn the rest into a protectorate. Success of the Mexican intervention inspires US leadership to focus US energies into expansion and control in Latin America. E.g. annexation of Panama to gain full control over the Canal, and of Nicaragua as well when talks start about building the second canal.

IMHO the huge changes in the European balance of power will have a significant impact on migration flows too, in particular for what concerns Italy. OTOH there might be a compensation in increased emigration from France, Spain and - possibly - the Balkans. It is however doubtful if the overall migration flows will match OTL, and if the USA will take a lion's share of them. Although there might be possible compensations by assuming a larger early internal migration of the freed slaves from the South toward the North and the West (which would not be a bad thing).

This is all quite true, and it matches fine with the PoD and butterflies I propose. Extra immigration comes nicely to populate the new states in western Canada and northern Mexico. :D

The migration flows from France (post-defeat in the 1890s war) will target Louisiana and Quebec in the north, Brasil and Argentina in the south, while the Spaniards might be more attracted to the west coast of south America. Which begs the question: is Quebec becoming independent, maybe as a satellite of the USA?

Well, it is a definite possibility, but with the lack of western Canada, the secession of Quebec would surely spell the collapse of the Canadian federation, I reckon. Atlantic Canada can surely go on with the support of the British Empire, but Ontario would be landlocked and isolated between the USA and Quebec. Quite possibly they would give up and accept union with the USA.

And what's going to happen in Brazil and Argentina? Maybe the former stays an empire and either of them (or both?) gets enmeshed with the Holy Alliance, pulling down the retribution from the big northern brother?

Another definite possiblity. Hmm, either or both become the South American front of the General War, are defeated, and turned into reluctant protectorates ? They are a bit far from amnd lack a land border with the USA, so I don't see the Yankees making that many annexations there (differently from my TL), but managing protectorates over the three biggies of Latin America could easily keep the US suitably busy for a long while.

That would be possible not just in Europe but in Canada and in the USA too. A bad TL for being Irish :(

Well, this TL is actually a bad place for being French, given that they are going to get a deal only somewhat better than the OTL Germans (of course, AES civil and enlightened if sometimes harsh protectorate is going to be much better than Slav ethnic cleansings, Soviet tyranny, or national division). About the Irish, yes, they too are going to pay a price for sideing with the AH wrong side, but not too bad. I fully expect that sooner or later, after the Great War, they are going to get their self-rule. Either history would largely repeat itself during the Great War, with a Boulangist-sponsored alt-Easter Rebellion, the British eventually tire out of fighting large-scale insurgency in Eire, and concede the Free State, or they stay quiet, the political momentum that almost led to Home Rule in the early 1900s is unbroken, so that it eventually granted. True, in both cases, Ulster is still going to be ste apart, and it is quite likely that a stronger Britain would enforce the Free State/Dominion settlement (Quebec's secession or Ontario's union with the USA would be one thing, Ireland is another one entirely, so close to the heart of the Empire), so that Ireland never becomes a Republic. Otherwise, I see Ireland not faring radically worse than OTL. Of course, the IRA would likely be even more of a problem, and the Irish would be even more backward-conservative. As for Irish immigrants to USA, I expect them to conform to the mores of their new land, sooner or later.

IMHO the Polish might manage it: getting again their own country (even if "under parole") would do a lot for them. As I said above, I don't see any happy end for the Irish.

As I said above, I think that in the end, they are still going to get their own Free State/Dominion self-rule "under parole", much like the Poles.

Problem is that there is always the "Roman precedent": either one calls it "the Roman empire" (and must have suitable assets in the Mediterranean and in the Balkans to justify the name) or it's better to stick with "kingdom of Italy". Even "Greater Italy" leaves a taste like "greater Rurithania" :eek::eek:

Agreed about "Greater Italy", just like nobody ITTL is going to use "Greater Germany" as an official name, no need for it, with pretty much all the Germans in the same state from the start. However, I don't really see the difficulty about "Empire of Italy", after all Germany and Italy were the two Kingdom halves of the old HRE back in the Middle Ages, if one half can upgrade itself to Empire status (no doubt for wholly sensible reasons such as giving suitable precedence to its monarch vs. its component subkingdoms), why not the other half, esp. when it gets Istria, Dalmatia, Corsica, the Baleares, eastern Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya ?

Maybe the problem is solved more simply: the comte de Chambord is too set in his ways to look for a title either than "king of France", obviously by the grace of God (what has the will of the people to do with it?). The Carlist successor will be happy as "king of France and Spain", and again it will not look for a different title. OTOH, it's quite possible that the regime will look for ancient glories to recycle (a bit like Wilhelmine Germany, but more stressed) and will try to depict the Holy Alliance as a legitimate successor of the empire of Charlemagne and Charles V: everything will be in any case for internal consumption only (or maybe for export to Francophone lands and to South America). I might also bet that any imperial title assumed by the Franco-Spanish king will not be recognised by the international diplomacy, so what's the point?

Of course, you are right, it's just a funny, gossipy footnote of the TL.
;):D
 
Maybe the problem is solved more simply: the comte de Chambord is too set in his ways to look for a title either than "king of France", obviously by the grace of God (what has the will of the people to do with it?). The Carlist successor will be happy as "king of France and Spain", and again it will not look for a different title. OTOH, it's quite possible that the regime will look for ancient glories to recycle (a bit like Wilhelmine Germany, but more stressed) and will try to depict the Holy Alliance as a legitimate successor of the empire of Charlemagne and Charles V: everything will be in any case for internal consumption only (or maybe for export to Francophone lands and to South America). I might also bet that any imperial title assumed by the Franco-Spanish king will not be recognised by the international diplomacy, so what's the point?

Hmm, so a Carlist Emperor indeed :D.

Enjoying the TL discussion; try not to give away too much of Canada ;)
 

Eurofed

Banned
Enjoying the TL discussion; try not to give away too much of Canada ;)

For the purposes of this TL, western Canada to America suffices as far as I'm concerned. I spare total annexation for my *real* Ameriwank TL. Of course, if Quebec really breaks away from rump Canada, there is only one reasonable place where Ontario may go... ;)
 
I had not the time to post for a few days, but I would love to keep up the discussion of TTL.

Well, it is funny you say this, because back when I was developing the PoD, the harshest criticism I got was that Russia and Prussia were not going to win, without the return of Napoleon messing up the opposite coalition. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, it seems. :p

Since for the proper development of the TL it is was vital that Austria be steamrolled and crippled, I went and put things without question, by having Nappy making his usual shenanigans. And honestly, I think it more likely this way, than without the Two Hundred Days.
I would think that in the absence of Napoleonic shenanigans the Powers might split 3 vs. 2 over the Saxon issue and go to war. The Napoleonic escapade (besides giving a fright to everyone) effectively removes France from the group of Powers, and makes moke imperative for Austria and GB to reach a compromise with Prussia and Russia.


I gave the man a break, letting the breakup of the anti-Napoleonic coalition give him a much-needed epiphany about whom his best allies would be (clue: not the power that has staked a turf in the area where your kingdom lies) and letting things flow naturally from that choice. For all his flaws, Murat was the by far best candidate to manage a successful Italian unification and modernization than the rest of Italian princes, an hopeless bunch of ultra-reactionary Habsbug pawns, until Cavour showed up.
Probably Murat was the best of a sorry lot :D Still I believe that Ferdinand of Two Sicilies showed great promise when he ascended the throne. Unfortunately the conspiracy attempted by his brother, the difficulties in governing a rebellious Sicily and a natural indolence derailed very soon what might have been a very successful reign. It would take a bit more luck, or maybe just a different wife.


Strictly needed, no, of course, just like does not need northern Mexico or half the Caribbean. But the package would be a really nice and nifty butterfly to buffer up America a bit, while the main PoD wanks Europe under the AES hegemony. The British Empire is going to be very successful overall ITTL anyway (or at least as much as successful as decolonization shall allow), it does not really need western Canada.

In addition to the main 1866 PoD, we may have an auxiliary one in America, by which the US give a little more covert support to the Fenian Raids, which are better equipped and organzied, and rather more successful. This leads to large swaths of Canada falling into unrest, as well as Britain and America undergoing a period of military tension. War is ultimately avoided by a compromise. America stops support to the Fenians, Britain agrees to sell Rupert's Land, the North-Western Territory, and Columbia District to the US. To satisfy British concerns about the security of Canada, Britain keeps those portions of Rupert's Land that lie northward of future Ontario and Quebec, and leases Vancouver Island for 99 years. The success of this land gain not just gives additional support for the purchase of Alaska, to solidify US control on the western hlaf of North America, but it moves the US Senate to approve the annexation of the Dominican Republic as well. Later, during the Great War, America joins the ASE side and annexes Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the French Caribbean. They may be inspired to buy some extra chunks of the European possessions in the Caribbean, such as British and Dutch Guianas. When the Mexican Revolution occurs, they are unburdened by concerns in Europe, so they step in, "restore order", annex northern Mexico and turn the rest into a protectorate. Success of the Mexican intervention inspires US leadership to focus US energies into expansion and control in Latin America. E.g. annexation of Panama to gain full control over the Canal, and of Nicaragua as well when talks start about building the second canal.

When are the USA going to have "differences" with GB? Not during the ACW. Alaska was purchased by Seward in 1867, and Santo Domingo applied to join the Union in early 1870s IIRC. It does not look possible to fit in your ideas. Or maybe you had something else in mind?

This is all quite true, and it matches fine with the PoD and butterflies I propose. Extra immigration comes nicely to populate the new states in western Canada and northern Mexico. :D
Actually my point was that there would be less immigration in the USA, since Italians and Germans would be more successful in Europe. Which tends to diminish the interest in the acquisition of more empty land.


Well, it is a definite possibility, but with the lack of western Canada, the secession of Quebec would surely spell the collapse of the Canadian federation, I reckon. Atlantic Canada can surely go on with the support of the British Empire, but Ontario would be landlocked and isolated between the USA and Quebec. Quite possibly they would give up and accept union with the USA.
Quite sure, and after all an independent Quebec is a bit of a cliche in AH.
Why not go for more pressure to de-francesize Quebec, with some insurrection repressed in blood and emigration of the most obdurate French-speakers? I would almost suggest to remove them to the infamous Westrn Canada :p


Another definite possiblity. Hmm, either or both become the South American front of the General War, are defeated, and turned into reluctant protectorates ? They are a bit far from amnd lack a land border with the USA, so I don't see the Yankees making that many annexations there (differently from my TL), but managing protectorates over the three biggies of Latin America could easily keep the US suitably busy for a long while.
Possibly Brazil on the Holy side and Argentina on the other one? with some serious fighting in southern Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay, ending up with a Big Argentina?


Well, this TL is actually a bad place for being French, given that they are going to get a deal only somewhat better than the OTL Germans (of course, AES civil and enlightened if sometimes harsh protectorate is going to be much better than Slav ethnic cleansings, Soviet tyranny, or national division). About the Irish, yes, they too are going to pay a price for sideing with the AH wrong side, but not too bad. I fully expect that sooner or later, after the Great War, they are going to get their self-rule. Either history would largely repeat itself during the Great War, with a Boulangist-sponsored alt-Easter Rebellion, the British eventually tire out of fighting large-scale insurgency in Eire, and concede the Free State, or they stay quiet, the political momentum that almost led to Home Rule in the early 1900s is unbroken, so that it eventually granted. True, in both cases, Ulster is still going to be ste apart, and it is quite likely that a stronger Britain would enforce the Free State/Dominion settlement (Quebec's secession or Ontario's union with the USA would be one thing, Ireland is another one entirely, so close to the heart of the Empire), so that Ireland never becomes a Republic. Otherwise, I see Ireland not faring radically worse than OTL. Of course, the IRA would likely be even more of a problem, and the Irish would be even more backward-conservative. As for Irish immigrants to USA, I expect them to conform to the mores of their new land, sooner or later.
The Irish are know to be very hard to change. If they choose the side of the traditional pope, they will go on and on, and will accept defeat just at a gun point.





Agreed about "Greater Italy", just like nobody ITTL is going to use "Greater Germany" as an official name, no need for it, with pretty much all the Germans in the same state from the start. However, I don't really see the difficulty about "Empire of Italy", after all Germany and Italy were the two Kingdom halves of the old HRE back in the Middle Ages, if one half can upgrade itself to Empire status (no doubt for wholly sensible reasons such as giving suitable precedence to its monarch vs. its component subkingdoms), why not the other half, esp. when it gets Istria, Dalmatia, Corsica, the Baleares, eastern Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya ?
The German empire made a lot of sense because a number of independent sovereigns more or less freely conferred their lands to the empire and accepted the supremacy of the king of Prussia. Italian unification happened in a different way (annexation and more-or-less free plebiscites) and no former sovereign survived in a position of power. Therefore no need for an empire. I'm just arguing for the sake of the argument :D If you really want an Italian empire feel free.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I had not the time to post for a few days, but I would love to keep up the discussion of TTL.

Ditto for me. :D:cool:

I would think that in the absence of Napoleonic shenanigans the Powers might split 3 vs. 2 over the Saxon issue and go to war. The Napoleonic escapade (besides giving a fright to everyone) effectively removes France from the group of Powers, and makes moke imperative for Austria and GB to reach a compromise with Prussia and Russia.

The trick is that Napoleon returns after the Powers have already gone and fully commited to war amongst themselves. Compromise with Napoleon is politically unfeasible, and the Powers have gone too far to make an hasty compromise and unified front against him, so it turns into a three-way mess, which Prussia and Russia eventually exploit to the fullest. Britain has to make itself content with the removal of Nappy, although it has to concede supremacy in continental Europe to the Prusso-Russian-Neapolitan bloc. France loses territory, but it is able to bargain keeping young Napoleon on the throne. Austria is well, fully screwed.

Probably Murat was the best of a sorry lot :D Still I believe that Ferdinand of Two Sicilies showed great promise when he ascended the throne. Unfortunately the conspiracy attempted by his brother, the difficulties in governing a rebellious Sicily and a natural indolence derailed very soon what might have been a very successful reign. It would take a bit more luck, or maybe just a different wife.

True, although I'm convinced that Murat still had much better potential than Ferdinand, taking their respective personal flaws into account. Besides, the 1814 PoD is for my purposes much better since it allows to wank Germany, Italy, and Russia all at once. :D:cool:

When are the USA going to have "differences" with GB? Not during the ACW. Alaska was purchased by Seward in 1867, and Santo Domingo applied to join the Union in early 1870s IIRC. It does not look possible to fit in your ideas. Or maybe you had something else in mind?

Well, I thought of a brief period of US-UK tension in 1866-67 related to the Fenian Raids, eventually venting into a face-saving compromise that ensures US purchase of Rupert's Land. Northwest Territory, and Columbia. Or do you have another PoD in mind to ensure US pruchase of western Canada ? This successful purchase paves the way to the one of Alaska and Santo Domingo.

Actually my point was that there would be less immigration in the USA, since Italians and Germans would be more successful in Europe. Which tends to diminish the interest in the acquisition of more empty land.

I assume that greater emigration from France, Spain, Ireland, Poland, Czechia, Hungarian minorities, and the Balkans, also prompted by the political changes in Europe, may easily balance the reduced one from Germany and Italy.

Quite sure, and after all an independent Quebec is a bit of a cliche in AH.
Why not go for more pressure to de-francesize Quebec, with some insurrection repressed in blood and emigration of the most obdurate French-speakers? I would almost suggest to remove them to the infamous Westrn Canada :p

This is all quite possible, given that Britain and rump Canada would grow strongly suspicious to French influence ITTL. So a possible likely alternative becomes strenghtened Anglo influence in restive, then subdued Quebec, and French-Canadian emigration to the USA. Of course, the frying pan and fire irony here fro those immigrants is that although the US political system may allow them more opportunities for self-rule, esp. where they manage to be a state majority, it is just as intolerant as Britain if not more of French-speaking separatism and ultra-reactionary Catholicism. Therefore a large part of the fleeing Quebecois shall be largely assimilated in the USA by hook or crook, although if they are in sufficient numbers, they may manage to turn at least part of US western Canada Francophone in a patchwork pattern, a northern Louisiana if you wish. Of course, keeping Anglicized Quebec keeps central-atlantic Canada wholly viable as well.

Possibly Brazil on the Holy side and Argentina on the other one? with some serious fighting in southern Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay, ending up with a Big Argentina?

Quite possible, although I see equal possibility for Brazil and Argentina to end up in either bloc (although each one in different blocs, of course, given theri geopolitical rivalry). IMo it is a toss-up, as far as I know late 1800s Brazil was no really more socially conservative (and hence more open to Boulangism) than Argentina and vice-versa. But I like Big Argentina, giving Buenos Aires a nifty AH reversal of fortunes, too, if it gets major political patronage and economic development from USA and AES.

The Irish are know to be very hard to change. If they choose the side of the traditional pope, they will go on and on, and will accept defeat just at a gun point.

So would you conclude that Irish obduracy would pave the way to a fate just like Quebec ? Insurrection, major harsh British repression, partial Anglicization, no self-rule, and renewed major emigration to the Americas ?
This looks like a likely path too, one that would fulfill your "no break for Ireland ITTL" prediction. It would require Britain to go all Boer on Ireland, but it can be done, if the Britsh public is sufficiently angered and Germany and Italy look the other way.

The German empire made a lot of sense because a number of independent sovereigns more or less freely conferred their lands to the empire and accepted the supremacy of the king of Prussia. Italian unification happened in a different way (annexation and more-or-less free plebiscites) and no former sovereign survived in a position of power. Therefore no need for an empire. I'm just arguing for the sake of the argument :D If you really want an Italian empire feel free.

Well, after all it is just a fancy title change done for the sake of diplomatic face-saving, making the monarch of Italy the rank & protocol equal of his German and British fellows. It lays no imperialistic claims.
 
The trick is that Napoleon returns after the Powers have already gone and fully commited to war amongst themselves. Compromise with Napoleon is politically unfeasible, and the Powers have gone too far to make an hasty compromise and unified front against him, so it turns into a three-way mess, which Prussia and Russia eventually exploit to the fullest. Britain has to make itself content with the removal of Nappy, although it has to concede supremacy in continental Europe to the Prusso-Russian-Neapolitan bloc. France loses territory, but it is able to bargain keeping young Napoleon on the throne. Austria is well, fully screwed.
It might work, but truth is that with Napoleon leaving the Elba for a last glorious ride the powers got a scare and decided it was time to put down the sword. OTOH, prior to the Napoleonic escapade Talleyrand was doing his best to keep everyone at the table and avoid Alexander to leave Vienna in a huff IIRC, and it's quite likely that the Saxon and Polish questions would not have been resolved without bloodshed.


True, although I'm convinced that Murat still had much better potential than Ferdinand, taking their respective personal flaws into account. Besides, the 1814 PoD is for my purposes much better since it allows to wank Germany, Italy, and Russia all at once. :D:cool:
Agreed on the 1814 POD, but not about the potential: Murat was a dobermann on two legs (and with the same cranial capacity of a dobermann)


Well, I thought of a brief period of US-UK tension in 1866-67 related to the Fenian Raids, eventually venting into a face-saving compromise that ensures US purchase of Rupert's Land. Northwest Territory, and Columbia. Or do you have another PoD in mind to ensure US pruchase of western Canada ? This successful purchase paves the way to the one of Alaska and Santo Domingo.
Very stretched. The USA have just come out of a mega civil war, the French are tromping all over Mexico, the Indians have taken advantage of the ACW to take back their lands and with all these issues on their plate the USA go and try to pick a fight with the British over a few paltry Fenian raids? To get a huge piece of empty (and apparently valueless) land?


I assume that greater emigration from France, Spain, Ireland, Poland, Czechia, Hungarian minorities, and the Balkans, also prompted by the political changes in Europe, may easily balance the reduced one from Germany and Italy.
Might be; I cannot believe it will be larger than OTL.


This is all quite possible, given that Britain and rump Canada would grow strongly suspicious to French influence ITTL. So a possible likely alternative becomes strenghtened Anglo influence in restive, then subdued Quebec, and French-Canadian emigration to the USA. Of course, the frying pan and fire irony here fro those immigrants is that although the US political system may allow them more opportunities for self-rule, esp. where they manage to be a state majority, it is just as intolerant as Britain if not more of French-speaking separatism and ultra-reactionary Catholicism. Therefore a large part of the fleeing Quebecois shall be largely assimilated in the USA by hook or crook, although if they are in sufficient numbers, they may manage to turn at least part of US western Canada Francophone in a patchwork pattern, a northern Louisiana if you wish. Of course, keeping Anglicized Quebec keeps central-atlantic Canada wholly viable as well.
Well, assimilated if they allow/accept the assimilation to take their course; otherwise they will become second class citizen. Something like the fate of the Mormons IOTL as compared with the same in the infamouse Turtledove series.


Quite possible, although I see equal possibility for Brazil and Argentina to end up in either bloc (although each one in different blocs, of course, given theri geopolitical rivalry). IMo it is a toss-up, as far as I know late 1800s Brazil was no really more socially conservative (and hence more open to Boulangism) than Argentina and vice-versa. But I like Big Argentina, giving Buenos Aires a nifty AH reversal of fortunes, too, if it gets major political patronage and economic development from USA and AES.
I do agree that the positioning is a toss up. I'm just a bit more sympathetic toward the Argentinians :D the fighting along the rio de la Plata and in Uruguay should be fierce.


So would you conclude that Irish obduracy would pave the way to a fate just like Quebec ? Insurrection, major harsh British repression, partial Anglicization, no self-rule, and renewed major emigration to the Americas ?
This looks like a likely path too, one that would fulfill your "no break for Ireland ITTL" prediction. It would require Britain to go all Boer on Ireland, but it can be done, if the Britsh public is sufficiently angered and Germany and Italy look the other way.
Germany and Italy would certainly look the other way, what with the popist superstion of TTL Irish. I think there might be a significant Irish diaspora, maybe toward other land who are still majority papist-catholics (Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Brazil)


Well, after all it is just a fancy title change done for the sake of diplomatic face-saving, making the monarch of Italy the rank & protocol equal of his German and British fellows. It lays no imperialistic claims.
Granted :D

We've however an issue to settle with the Spanish situation: I don't want an Amadeus of Savoy king of Spain for just a few years and then abdicating. OTOH, the Cortes in the late 1860s/early 1870s have a progressive majority (probably not a good description: I've the feeling that the cohesion of the progressives was less than perfect). However, I believe that we should either delay the dethronement of Isabela by one year or two, or alternatively assume an earlier and stronger Carlist insurrection: this could result in a Spain more preoccupied with its internal situation than looking for a foreign king and might open the door for a Carlist compromise after say 2 or 3 years of bloody civil war.

I'm interested to have the Carlist pretender still without a throne until after the comte de Chambord becomes king in France.
 
I don't like the supposition of a French-Prussian War going as IOTL...if Austria is beaten worse, it stands to reason that

1. The French will increase military expenditures as they realize they will stand alone against Prussia.

2. They will reform their military so as to be able to fight such a war.

Also, any Italian invasion of France, even to take Nice and Savoy, is ASB. You can hold the Alp passes with three divisions against millions of troops, as the narrowest points are all on the French side of the border. Even decades later, the war plans for the Triple Alliance included Italian troops invading France...from across the Rhine in a joint operation with German troops in Alsace and Lorraine.
 
I don't like the supposition of a French-Prussian War going as IOTL...if Austria is beaten worse, it stands to reason that

1. The French will increase military expenditures as they realize they will stand alone against Prussia.

2. They will reform their military so as to be able to fight such a war.

Also, any Italian invasion of France, even to take Nice and Savoy, is ASB. You can hold the Alp passes with three divisions against millions of troops, as the narrowest points are all on the French side of the border. Even decades later, the war plans for the Triple Alliance included Italian troops invading France...from across the Rhine in a joint operation with German troops in Alsace and Lorraine.

It stand to reason what?
IOTL Prussia performed very well against Austria, but the French did not implement any reform of the military, notwithstanding the 4 years interval between the 1866 and 1870.
ITTL the I-F-G war will come at the beginning of 1868: no way that the French can make any significant change; and I have not even taken into account the superciliosity and the general boneheadness of Nappy the third.

As far as the actions on the French-Italian border aree concerned, I believe that you are thinking of a WW1 situation, when both parties have significantly fortified the border. In 1868 the situation is quite different and the pressure of Italian troops on French eastern front will be the cherry on the German cake :D

IMHO you have also forgotten a not-so-minor point: like IOTL, the war will be declared by the French. IOTL the casus belli was the Spanish succession and the infamous Bismarck telegram. ITTL will be the Italians taking Rome, and giving a bloody nose to the French expedition force. Do you truly believe that with this background Nappy can stay on the defensive on the Italian front?
The war will see the frenchies attacking the Italian border, not the other way around. Then when everything has gone into the grinder on the Northern front and the French army is unravelling you'll see the Italians advance and take Toulon and Marseilles.
 
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