A "democratic" English Republic?

[Vinization]

Was there any chance for the English Commonwealth to take a democratic-ish form, following the Levellers' Agreement of the People, instead of becoming a military dictatorship under Oliver Cromwell? What would happen to Scotland and Ireland?

What about the rest of Europe? Would there still be an Anglo-Dutch War?

 

[CanveyFanNumberOne]

I expect there may be a reaction similar to what happened after 1789 when the Monarchies of Europe rallied together in an attempt to put down the French Revolution and save their own Royal Families. This being that the government becomes isolated rather than facing a fully fledged Military attack.

 

[Vinization]

I expect there may be a reaction similar to what happened after 1789 when the Monarchies of Europe rallied together in an attempt to put down the French Revolution and save their own Royal Families. This being that the government becomes isolated rather than facing a fully fledged Military attack.

Well, there wasn't an uproar when Charles I was executed, plus Europe as a whole was exhausted thanks to the Thirty Years' War.

 

[CanveyFanNumberOne]

Well, there wasn't an uproar when Charles I was executed, plus Europe as a whole was exhausted thanks to the Thirty Years' War.

I meant more of an economical pact not to trade with the Commonwealth government. Weaken the government of the Commonwealth and strengthen themselves whilst waiting for the time when they could invade and restore Charles II or a successor of his to the throne.

 

[NedStark]

I meant more of an economical pact not to trade with the Commonwealth government. Weaken the government of the Commonwealth and strengthen themselves whilst waiting for the time when they could invade and restore Charles II or a successor of his to the throne.

The problem is that, all rival powers, notably France and Spain, were busy fighting each other - right after the Thirty Years' War, and one of them (France) actually allied with Commonwealth IOTL. And, the Dutch, another huge trade partner, would not really care at all. And not to mention the ongoing religious conflicts, which means England could easily find another Protestant ally.

In addition, the monarchies would have been forced to recognize the Commonwealth of England just like IOTL following the inevitable naval buildup (which resulted in the largest navy in Europe - one thing that united all Parliamentarian factions was naval expansion).

 

[Vinization]

What POD could bring the Levellers to power? What happens to Scotland and Ireland? Hopefully the latter would avoid the worst of the Cromwellian genocide, but I can't see it being left alone thanks to the danger of it becoming a launchpad from which the Stuarts could attempt to retake the English throne.

 

[NedStark]

What POD could bring the Levellers to power?

Have someone with Levellers view taking Cromwell's role during the Civil War ITTL. Meanwhile, have Cromwell going to the New World. These PODs would have changed the Putney Debates.

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . Agreement of the People, instead of becoming a military dictatorship under Oliver Cromwell? . . .

More so instead of pure leveling, I wonder if breaking monopolies?

For example, I bet law and practice put most of the risk of bad times onto the peasants themselves, and not the landlords. And once the momentum to change this gets rolling, it’s going to be hard to hold back.

 

[JorgeGG]

Was there any chance for the English Commonwealth to take a democratic-ish form, following the Levellers' Agreement of the People, instead of becoming a military dictatorship under Oliver Cromwell? What would happen to Scotland and Ireland?

What about the rest of Europe? Would there still be an Anglo-Dutch War?

I don't think so. Cromwell, the Grandees of the Model Army, most of the gentry and the City of London, the Rump Parliament, (or any parliament elected under management of the Army) were politically and socially conservative. To them " An Agreement of the People'' was already too radical in turning the world upside down. Their main goals were parliamentary rule, or some form that was not akin to absolute monarchy, MPs elected under property requirements, religious reform with some given out religious freedom (an idea that was already radical and a source of trouble in dealing with Quakers) and protection of property rights. The later expressed the harsh treatment and eviction of the Diggers and similar "equalitarians" by government and local authorities.

Many people undervalue that much of the Good Old Cause was republican in spirit and goals and had a large following in the Army, having advocates such as Algernon Sidney, John Milton, John Lambert, Edmund Ludlow and others.

I think if there is republic, during or after Cromwell's rule, it would be more like the one of Netherlands's First Stadtholderless period (1650–72). Perhaps in time the it would became more "democratic"

Scotland and Ireland by force or persuasion would still be part of this Commonwealth due to political, military, religious, and practical reasons. The mayor royalists uprising against Parliament and Cromwell began and ended in Scotland and Ireland so for political and military reasons they must be part of the Protectorate. The Irish wouldn't fare any better specially that the English had a very low opinion of them as lowbrow peasants to say the least

The Navigation Acts would make the situation contingent with the Netherlands and uncertain. Is in this period that English (and later British) overseas trade, with the East india Company, African gold and slave trade, Caribbean sugar and rum, trade and smuggle, with the American colonies became really important. The Navigation Acts were the means to promote and protect English trade.

 

[jenalysis]

I meant more of an economical pact not to trade with the Commonwealth government. Weaken the government of the Commonwealth and strengthen themselves whilst waiting for the time when they could invade and restore Charles II or a successor of his to the throne.

That would depend on whether England was exporting the revolution or not. If England isn't trying to spread revolution to other areas, they'll be tolerated.

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . Hopefully the latter [Ireland] would avoid the worst of the Cromwellian genocide, . . .

Yes, I’m pretty highly interested in avoiding genocide.

 

[Dan Handsome]

I expect there may be a reaction similar to what happened after 1789 when the Monarchies of Europe rallied together in an attempt to put down the French Revolution and save their own Royal Families. This being that the government becomes isolated rather than facing a fully fledged Military attack.

England isn't France. I don't think most monarchs would care.

 

[NedStark]

What would happen to Scotland and Ireland?

IMO, Scotland and Ireland would have been conquered either by persuasion or by force anyway to prevent Charles II from gaining a foothold. Ireland's fate might be better, but unlikely.

What about the rest of Europe? Would there still be an Anglo-Dutch War?

There would be one due to trade conflicts and the Navi, but there might not be 3 wars like IOTL, since there is a chance that Republican England might side with the Dutch in the ATL Franco-Dutch War. Venice could be a potential ally since their interests did not clash.

Cromwell, the Grandees of the Model Army, most of the gentry and the City of London, the Rump Parliament, (or any parliament elected under management of the Army) were politically and socially conservative. To them " An Agreement of the People'' was already too radical in turning the world upside down. Their main goals were parliamentary rule, or some form that was not akin to absolute monarchy, MPs elected under property requirements, religious reform with some given out religious freedom (an idea that was already radical and a source of trouble in dealing with Quakers) and protection of property rights. The later expressed the harsh treatment and eviction of the Diggers and similar "equalitarians" by government and local authorities.

Something similar to the Dutch Republic, run by the Long Parliament, could emerge if Cromwell goes to the New World, Pride's Purge is averted and Parliament successfully demobilize the troops (by biting their tongues and paying the arrears properly).

with the American colonies became really important

France could have easily lost the entire New France ITTL before 1700. Republican England IOTL was very aggressive in colonial expansion in the New World, ranging from waging war against Spain in the Caribbeans to attacking Acadia without declaring war, and ITTL that could happen as well.

 

[edgeworthy]

What POD could bring the Levellers to power? What happens to Scotland and Ireland? Hopefully the latter would avoid the worst of the Cromwellian genocide, but I can't see it being left alone thanks to the danger of it becoming a launchpad from which the Stuarts could attempt to retake the English throne.

Oh no not that abuse of history again.

Oliver Cromwell was only in Ireland for 9 months, the War lasted another 2 years. Would people please stop blaming him for things he couldn't possibly have done because he wasn't even in the country!
And no there is no hint of Command Responsibility here, he was not the Commander in Chief of the Army, that was still Thomas Fairfax, and he wasn't setting government policy. The Parliament responsible was the one he overthrew to become Lord Protector.

No one is saying atrocities did not happen, but could we try ascribing guilt where it belongs?

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . Oliver Cromwell was only in Ireland for 9 months, the War lasted another 2 years. Would people please stop blaming him for things he couldn't possibly have done because he wasn't even in the country!
And no there is no hint of command Responsibility here. . .

He did some stuff, and he set the tone.

“In 1641 Irish Catholics attacked the Protestant settler community. Thousands were killed. But news of massacres and atrocities were greatly exaggerated in the English press, which reported that as many as 200,000 had been slaughtered. Cromwell, then an obscure MP, . . . ”

The Big Question: Was Cromwell a revolutionary hero or a genocidal war

Why are we asking this now?

www.independent.co.uk

So, it was attack and counter-attack. Or perhaps we should say, revenge and counter-revenge.

 

[Vinization]

What about a Republic that is less authoritarian, one where the Lord Protector is more of a prime minister/president instead of an all out dictator?

 

[NedStark]

What about a Republic that is less authoritarian, one where the Lord Protector is more of a prime minister/president instead of an all out dictator?

We may see a Britain with a single House of Commons, with the Lords not restored (IOTL, the Lords were disbanded during the ECW).

 

[Vinization]

Apparently the rotten boroughs were abolished during Cromwell's tenure. I assume getting rid of them would make Parliament significantly more democratic, even if the Agreement of the People isn't fully implemented.

 

[NedStark]

Apparently the rotten boroughs were abolished during Cromwell's tenure. I assume getting rid of them would make Parliament significantly more democratic, even if the Agreement of the People isn't fully implemented.

Agree. And universal education. One of the good values of the Puritans is that they were big on giving education to everyone.

Both rotten borough reforms and universal education were tainted by Cromwell's legacy. Thus, they never came back until the 19th century.

 

[BELFAST]

He did some stuff, and he set the tone.

The Big Question: Was Cromwell a revolutionary hero or a genocidal war

Why are we asking this now?

www.independent.co.uk

So, it was attack and counter-attack. Or perhaps we should say, revenge and counter-revenge.

Crowell was both a revolutionary hero and a genocidal war criminal.