A (Couple) Josef Ferdinand of Bavaria Question(s)

So, reading Apollinis et Dianae has had me tinkering around with the scraps of my Josef Ferdinand of Bavaria, Prince of the Asturias-lives TL (that never got finished since I didn't really plan ahead).

And it got me thinking, if JF gets Spain (presumably as Ferdinand VI or Jose I), what happens to Bavaria? Would it get split from Spain with a stipulation to say that the Bavarian Elector cannot be the King of Spain? Would it be stripped from the Wittelsbachs entirely as OTL?

And also, which parts of the Spanish Empire does JF get to keep (New World presumably?) Since I presume there might still be a lesser version of the WoSS. Austria will want Italy, France will want the Netherlands, and Spain gets to keep what?. And what would the political scene look like c.1700?

Also, I have ideas for him marrying a Portuguese Infanta (if only for the ridiculous dowry she can bring - see Catherine of Bragança's and how rich the Portuguese crown was in the 18th century), since she's neither French or Austrian.
 
Here's a sadly curtailed timeline using this POD. The partition it ends up with is

-a Bourbon secundogeniture consisting of Sicily, Naples, and Milan (initially ruled by the Dauphin himself)
-a Hapsburg secundogeniture in Belgium (the Duchy of Flanders)
-the rest of the empire, including Bavaria, to the Wittelsbachs

Of course, this was set up with the ulterior motive of sparking a War of the Everybody Succession a generation or two later, so a few contrivances (e.g. King William III of England dropping dead to keep him from escalating the War of the Spanish Partition) are present.
 
Um...AFAIK, the Austrians rejected one of the partition treaties because it gave them none of Spain's empire in Italy. And also there was another treaty where it said the duke of Lorraine or the duke of Savoy was to get the kingdom of Naples, and his patrimony would be reappropriated to Monsigneur le Dauphin, to be incorporated into France at a later date.

There was also a thing about the duke of Lorraine getting Milan in exchange for turning Lorraine over to France IIRC. So IDK if it'll be as cut and dried as Habsburgs get this, Bourbons that, and we'll just screw over every one else.

Part of the reasons the partition treaties didn't work OTL had to do with the first one the Austrians weren't consulted about, the second the French, and Carlos II was consulted for neither which pissed the guy off, and he simply named Josef Ferdinand heir to everything, and they could squabble over his [Carlos'] corpse. Then Josef Ferdinand died and it all went to Hell.
 
Um...AFAIK, the Austrians rejected one of the partition treaties because it gave them none of Spain's empire in Italy. And also there was another treaty where it said the duke of Lorraine or the duke of Savoy was to get the kingdom of Naples, and his patrimony would be reappropriated to Monsigneur le Dauphin, to be incorporated into France at a later date.

There was also a thing about the duke of Lorraine getting Milan in exchange for turning Lorraine over to France IIRC. So IDK if it'll be as cut and dried as Habsburgs get this, Bourbons that, and we'll just screw over every one else.

Part of the reasons the partition treaties didn't work OTL had to do with the first one the Austrians weren't consulted about, the second the French, and Carlos II was consulted for neither which pissed the guy off, and he simply named Josef Ferdinand heir to everything, and they could squabble over his [Carlos'] corpse. Then Josef Ferdinand died and it all went to Hell.
The agreement I outlined above was only reached after a short war ITTL. It's not really a case of the Partition Treaties "working".
 
Here's a sadly curtailed timeline using this POD. The partition it ends up with is

-a Bourbon secundogeniture consisting of Sicily, Naples, and Milan (initially ruled by the Dauphin himself)
-a Hapsburg secundogeniture in Belgium (the Duchy of Flanders)
-the rest of the empire, including Bavaria, to the Wittelsbachs

Of course, this was set up with the ulterior motive of sparking a War of the Everybody Succession a generation or two later, so a few contrivances (e.g. King William III of England dropping dead to keep him from escalating the War of the Spanish Partition) are present.

Um...AFAIK, the Austrians rejected one of the partition treaties because it gave them none of Spain's empire in Italy. And also there was another treaty where it said the duke of Lorraine or the duke of Savoy was to get the kingdom of Naples, and his patrimony would be reappropriated to Monsigneur le Dauphin, to be incorporated into France at a later date.

There was also a thing about the duke of Lorraine getting Milan in exchange for turning Lorraine over to France IIRC. So IDK if it'll be as cut and dried as Habsburgs get this, Bourbons that, and we'll just screw over every one else.

Part of the reasons the partition treaties didn't work OTL had to do with the first one the Austrians weren't consulted about, the second the French, and Carlos II was consulted for neither which pissed the guy off, and he simply named Josef Ferdinand heir to everything, and they could squabble over his [Carlos'] corpse. Then Josef Ferdinand died and it all went to Hell.

@ Codae: regarding your post, Kellan Sullivan is right that Austria wanted a stake in Italy, especially Milan was also of strategic importance to Austria.
A treaty, which would turn Sicily and Naples into a Bourbon secundogeniture and would give the Southern Netherlands and Milan to Austria does seem like an acceptable compromise for Austria.
Alternatively the Southern Netherlands could pass to the duke of Lorraine & Bar, which in turn loses his ancestral lands (Lorraine & Bar) to the Dauphin and later France, Sicily and Naples will become a Bourbon secundogeniture and Austria gets Milan.

@ Kellan Sullivan: weren't some of treaties involving Lorraine and/or Savoy from after the death of Joseph Ferdinand?
 
@ Codae: regarding your post, Kellan Sullivan is right that Austria wanted a stake in Italy, especially Milan was also of strategic importance to Austria.
A treaty, which would turn Sicily and Naples into a Bourbon secundogeniture and would give the Southern Netherlands and Milan to Austria does seem like an acceptable compromise for Austria.
Alternatively the Southern Netherlands could pass to the duke of Lorraine & Bar, which in turn loses his ancestral lands (Lorraine & Bar) to the Dauphin and later France, Sicily and Naples will become a Bourbon secundogeniture and Austria gets Milan.

@ Kellan Sullivan: weren't some of treaties involving Lorraine and/or Savoy from after the death of Joseph Ferdinand?

The differences between the Treaties of the Hague and of London (i.e. the First and Second Partition Treaties) are pretty vague on wiki, and most books I've got on the times simply refer to them in passing, and maybe make one or two comments on Bourbon or Habsburg gains/losses.

Here's what I could find, though:

By the conditions of the first partition treaty the electoral prince of Bavaria would inherit most of the Spanish crown; meaning Spain; the Spanish Netherlands and the Indies. The Dauphin would inherit Naples, Sicily, Finale, the ports in Tuscany (Porto Santo Stefano; Porto' Ercole; Orbetello, Talamone, Porto Longone, Piombino) and the part of Guipuzcoa north of the Pyrenees (notably the towns of San Sebastián and Fuenterrabía). Archduke Charles would get Milan.

On 11 June 1699 a second partition treaty was agreed to. Archduke Charles took the place of Joseph of Bavaria and Milan was added to the Dauphin's part, but exchanged for Lorraine. In other words: Archduke Charles got Spain, the Indies and the Spanish Netherlands, the Dauphin got Naples, Sicily and Lorraine, and the Duke of Lorraine got Milan. A condition was made that Charles' territories could never be united with the empire. The treaty was thus ratified by the seapowers and France alone on 13 March 1700. It seemed as if the problem was solved, even though the emperor would not adhere to the treaty.

However, I do seem to remember reading somewhere about that the duke of Savoy would/could be offered the kingdom of Naples as the next-nearest heir to the Spanish dominions, sort of as a sop to Cerberus. That said, if Savoy refused, the same offer was to be presented to the house of Lorraine, but they would then have to renounce Milan in favor of the house of Savoy. But I think it was perhaps an under the table deal in the sense that it never became part of either treaty, or if above board, perhaps more of a side deal that never made it through the first stages.:confused:
 
IIRC the duke of Savoy had to give up his ancestral lands, Savoy, Piemonte etc. in exchange for the kingdoms Sicily and Naples. However again IIRC the duke of Savoy preferred to gain Milan instead (and keep his ancestral lands).
I read about in a book about Victor Amadeus of Savoy.

Also you're right that it didn't make it into a final treaty.

In fact I used a part of the idea in a previous thread on this matter. For instance, what if Savoy received the offer and would have rejected it, but Lorraine would accept it? Under such a scenario even Sardinia might be still be possible for Savoy, but nothing more, however Sardinia remaining Spanish seems more likely.

Edit: most of the ideas involving Savoy and Lorraine seem to have been French attempts to keep Austria out of Italy. Granted most of them were from after the death of Joseph Ferdinand, but how much was it worth to France to keep Austria out of Italy with Joseph Ferdinand staying alive?
Would France be willing to accept less, if Austria gains less too?
For instance how about the following: Joseph Ferdinand gains Spain and the colonies and possibly Sardinia* too; the duke of Lorraine & Bar trades the duchies Lorraine and Bar for the kingdoms Sicily and Naples; the duke of Savoy cedes the duchy of Savoy (proper), but retains Piemonte and gains the duchy of Milan and possibly the kingdom of Sardinia*; the Dauphin gains the duchies of Savoy, Lorraine & Bar, which upon his succession will be integrated into France; finally Austria is rewarded with the Southern Netherlands. *= the relatively unimportant kingdom of Sardinia can be used to promote the duke to the rank of king, like ITTL the former duke of Lorraine; IIRC the British ambassador at the time said something along the lines of the only added value the possession of the island gave, was that it granted the title of king to the prince, who possessed the island.
 
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So, reading Apollinis et Dianae has had me tinkering around with the scraps of my Josef Ferdinand of Bavaria, Prince of the Asturias-lives TL (that never got finished since I didn't really plan ahead).

And it got me thinking, if JF gets Spain (presumably as Ferdinand VI or Jose I), what happens to Bavaria? Would it get split from Spain with a stipulation to say that the Bavarian Elector cannot be the King of Spain? Would it be stripped from the Wittelsbachs entirely as OTL?

And also, which parts of the Spanish Empire does JF get to keep (New World presumably?) Since I presume there might still be a lesser version of the WoSS. Austria will want Italy, France will want the Netherlands, and Spain gets to keep what?. And what would the political scene look like c.1700?

Also, I have ideas for him marrying a Portuguese Infanta (if only for the ridiculous dowry she can bring - see Catherine of Bragança's and how rich the Portuguese crown was in the 18th century), since she's neither French or Austrian.

First of all, glad that Valena and I have inspired you:D. Second, here's a link to the Partition treaties from the Spanish succession site: http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/treaties.html

As you can see, the only parts of the Spanish Monarchy that were to be divided were in Europe, the rest of the Empire would go with Spain. To Bavaria though, I can't see Jose Fernando being both King and Elector. he ended up with at least three brothers, so chances are the Emperor or the Imperial Diet would try to mandate that the Electorate should go to a second son. But without the rest of the European Empire, Jose Fernando would have a tough time eventually ruling Bavaria. Chances are if he is allowed to inherit, we'd see a repeat of Charles V's situation: a brother becomes his Regent in Munich and eventually becomes Elector.

But all these treaties, both ratified and suggested, failed to gain the support of Spain, so chances are Carlos II will repeat OTL and leave the entire inheritance to his grand-nephew, the Prince of Asturias. And considering how ambitious the Prince's father Maximilian Emanuel II was, he'll definitely accept the will. The only question is what the rest of Europe will do. Britain and the Netherlands, along with the Empire will probably accept the treaty, with France throwing a fit but at the same time aiming for a marriage alliance. After all the Bourbons were no strangers to marriages with the Wittelsbachs (le Grand Dauphin was the brother-in-law to Elector Maximilian, and his sons were first cousins to the Prince of Asturias).

As to marriages, I'm unsure about Portugal. Remember the situation within that country when Catherine of Braganza married Charles II: they were fighting for their independence with no allies (France having recently abandoned them in the Treaty of the Pyrenees) and desperately needed aid. I can't see Portugal providing a dowry of even half of what was given for Catherine. And, the only OTL Portuguese Infanta to survive infancy was Infanta Francisca Josefa, who was born in 1699. With an age difference of almost 8 years, I don't know if the Spanish would want to wait that long for her to be able to produce children. Of course you could have her sister Teresa Maria survive childhood (she died in 1704 at age 8, but I have no clue what killed her). Teresa would be closer in age to the young King, maybe close enough to be the next Queen of Spain.

Another highly interesting, to me anyway, pick is the exiled Princess Louisa Maria Stuart. She is the daughter of a King, albeit a deposed one and would bring the backing of Louis XIV, without having to marry a d'Orleans Princess. Unlikely to be sure, but a possibility none-the-less.
 
As to marriages, I'm unsure about Portugal. Remember the situation within that country when Catherine of Braganza married Charles II: they were fighting for their independence with no allies (France having recently abandoned them in the Treaty of the Pyrenees) and desperately needed aid. I can't see Portugal providing a dowry of even half of what was given for Catherine. And, the only OTL Portuguese Infanta to survive infancy was Infanta Francisca Josefa, who was born in 1699. With an age difference of almost 8 years, I don't know if the Spanish would want to wait that long for her to be able to produce children. Of course you could have her sister Teresa Maria survive childhood (she died in 1704 at age 8, but I have no clue what killed her). Teresa would be closer in age to the young King, maybe close enough to be the next Queen of Spain.

Another highly interesting, to me anyway, pick is the exiled Princess Louisa Maria Stuart. She is the daughter of a King, albeit a deposed one and would bring the backing of Louis XIV, without having to marry a d'Orleans Princess. Unlikely to be sure, but a possibility none-the-less.

The only question that comes up is the question of a dowry. Spain is cash-strapped. Mary Beatrice is cash-strapped. Could Louisa end up as a second Marie-Thérèse? Renounce rights on marriage and then due to unpaid dowry the rights are returned? Or does Louis XIV in an act of benevolence, say that he'll put up x-amount for her?
 
So, reading Apollinis et Dianae has had me tinkering around with the scraps of my Josef Ferdinand of Bavaria, Prince of the Asturias-lives TL (that never got finished since I didn't really plan ahead).

And it got me thinking, if JF gets Spain (presumably as Ferdinand VI or Jose I), what happens to Bavaria? Would it get split from Spain with a stipulation to say that the Bavarian Elector cannot be the King of Spain? Would it be stripped from the Wittelsbachs entirely as OTL?

And also, which parts of the Spanish Empire does JF get to keep (New World presumably?) Since I presume there might still be a lesser version of the WoSS. Austria will want Italy, France will want the Netherlands, and Spain gets to keep what?. And what would the political scene look like c.1700?

Also, I have ideas for him marrying a Portuguese Infanta (if only for the ridiculous dowry she can bring - see Catherine of Bragança's and how rich the Portuguese crown was in the 18th century), since she's neither French or Austrian.

The only question that comes up is the question of a dowry. Spain is cash-strapped. Mary Beatrice is cash-strapped. Could Louisa end up as a second Marie-Thérèse? Renounce rights on marriage and then due to unpaid dowry the rights are returned? Or does Louis XIV in an act of benevolence, say that he'll put up x-amount for her?


Yeah any marriage between the Jacobites and Spain would have the implicit backing of Louis XIV, as guardian to both James III and the Princess Royal. She would be a good compromise candidate, being the daughter and sister of the rightful Kings of England means that Louisa would outrank any possible French Princess (aka the Orleans girls) while at the same time no doubt bring a large French dowry. Also, Mary Beatrice wasn't that cash-strapped. No she couldn't provide a massive Royal dowry but the Jacobite Court of Saint-Germain was as well founded as any Princely court of the time. The Jacobite Court being poor is a common misconception started by the Whigs in the early 1700s and continued on to this day, without any real proof.
 
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