A continuing CSA...

This is a story based on the continuing saga of the CSA...

Jackson alive and well at Gettysburg noticed the vacancies on Culp's hill and Little round top early on the battle.

The union left flank crumbled. And with the support of the British on the right, fighting for the freedom of a supporting nation and to get back at the united states. the union line folded in on it self like a cresent. This was both advantagious and disasterous to the confederates. They were spread out thin and could not get supplies to the soldiers as easily as the unions. small pockets were decimated by federal forces. But overall the union found themselves in an indefencable position.

From then on in the war the allies to the confederates played a nominal role. However it was small in comparison to the success of the sharpshooters obliverating the union generals.

One of the fatalities of the battle was Jackson who refused treatment for a wound in his neck in order to stay with his troops. It was not long until Harrisburg and Philidelphia fell to Lee's superior tactics.

The Lincoln was not reelected, and the next president surrendered to the CSA.

Yet surprisingly talks to abolish slavery came immediatly and from the most unlikely source, Robert E. Lee. But he was criticized greatly and lost the 1868 election to fellow general James Longstreet. Therefore, Lee became a footnote in the textbooks.

Longstreet did not run again, his successor, John Ambrose Fournier, spearheaded the debate against Lee. He was very liberal with great expantionist ideololgy. He lead several sucessful campaigns into cuba and mexico.

Thus far, the economy of the Confederates was greatly backed by foreign markets, which was the soul reason for the country's survival.

These are the presidents of the CSA:
1) Jefferson Davis 1861-1867
2) James Longstreet 1867-1873
3) John Ambrose Fournier 1873-1879
4) R. E. L. Stuart* 1879-1885
5) John A. Fournier Jr.* 1885-1893

*demotes individual who was butterflied into TTL.

Please note that the HOW the confederates won the War of Northern Aggression is not important to me (in case the events are ASB) it is the fact that they did indeed win the War and survived.

I am opening this TL up to requests, and I will try my hardest to implement ALL requests if possible and plausible.
 
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It is almost a certainty that any Confederate Victorious scenario will lead to a Confederate-Mexican War. The Southerners were almost hell bent on expansion and they had even gone so far as to reject Mexican recognition very early in their existence for the sole reason that they planned to invade and conquer parts of Mexico in the future.

This War would likely happen after 1870 if only for the reason that the Confederate will need at the very least five or six years to recover in anyway from the effects of their war with the Union.

Lee will not lead any army in a Mexican-Confederate War in such a scenario as he will either be dead or will likely be employed in high office in Richmond (if not President then certainly General-in-Chief) Likely candidates to lead the Confederate in this War are Joe Johnston or P.G.T. Beauregard with William J. Hardee and perhaps Cleburne, Gordon, Cheatham or Stewart as possible later commanders.

Confederate industry will be dominated mostly by agricultural ventures such as cotton and tobacco but I believe that Steel will become a big part of the Confederate industry as time progresses.

In Southern society, that is to say outside of the ruling classes, whether a man supports or opposes slavery doesn't matter so long as they do not try to force their views on others and the ruling classes dont care so long as those who oppose slavery will tolerate slavery without saying anything against it.

Lee will not openly denouce slavery. Lee feels that slavery is wrong but he is too much of a patriot and too devoted to duty to ever risk his position within the State of Virginia or the Confederacy to ever speak out against it.

Thomas C. Hindman, however, had been promoting a form of abolition for years and spoke of employing the Slaves for use in the Confederate Army (as teamsters or soldiers) since late 1862 and early 1863, 1-2 year before Cleburne proposed to use slaves and 2-3 years before Lee did. He is more likely to be your outspoken proponant of abolition than Lee for both the fact that he had been a proponent of it for longer and was more involved in Politics than Lee, having been a major player in Arkansas politics prior to the war. (on a side note Thomas C. Hindman had one of the most interesting deaths of any of the Confederates in OTL and its worth looking him up just for that, if his death happens the same way in your Timeline he could become some sort of Confederate Abolitionist Martyr or Saint).

Anyway, some points to consider....

EDIT: looking quickly at your presidents, I think you dates are off. The Confederate President served one term of 6 years and was not allowed to run for office again. Therefore the Presidents would be Davis 1861-1867, Longstreet 1867-1873, Fournier 1873-1879, Stuart 1879-1885,Fournier Jr. 1885-1891, etc
 
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Thanks,

I would think the outcome to the Confederate-Mexican war will be a confederate loss.

It will grind to a halt due to the use of Gruilla tactics. Nominal gains only.
 
Thanks,

I would think the outcome to the Confederate-Mexican war will be a confederate loss.

It will grind to a halt due to the use of Gruilla tactics. Nominal gains only.

I believe that a Confederate-Mexican war will end in a situation similar to the American War of 1812 did for the Yankees. It will be a return to the status quo but not a loss persay, more a draw.

The Confederates do have a chance of getting some land off of Mexico but its not very big. They might be able to negotiate for some land if they are in a strong position when the war ends (for example, for arguements sake, Joe Johnston duplicates Winfield Scott's performance from the American-Mexican War and captures Mexico City without losing a single battle - Johnston could possible have done this but Beauregard and Hardee could not, Cleburne, Gordon, Cheatham and Stewart are unknown variables - but that is the greatest success imaginable to me so not really viable...but you never know...)

In my opinion the best the Confederates can get out of a War with Mexico would be some land in Chihuahua and maybe Sonora but only if they have had a lot of success. If, like the American invasions of British North America, the Confederates invade Mexico only to get thrown out in quick order then gains will be slight if any and it may come down to trying to save face rather than trying to expand.
 
Okay, so I will give the confederates, everything up to Chihuahua.

California will remain mexican and will eventually succeed. Alaska will remain russian.

John Ambrose Fournier was congradulated on the adquisition of northern Chihuahua, however he was unsatisfied, but there was not much he could do as the treaty has already been singed.

Robert L. Stuart, unlike his father J. E. B. Stuart was a paficist. He did a lot to please the USA and tensions were smoothed and a friendship was formed between him and President George A. Custer of the united states.

There are three political parties in the CSA:

Democratic: the very popular party and the one of Jefferson Davis, James Longstreet, and both John Fourniers.
Federal: A centrist party that was origionlly for the abolishment of slavery. Party of Robert L. Stuart.
Southern Republican: A abolishment party, is a minor third party who does have status. No leaders have come from this party.

On more thing is that slavery will not survive well into the first decade of the 20th century, the industrial revolution will make lots of slaves obsolite... Blacks still wont have the vote and there will be apartied on the same level of south africa.

I am assuming due to less communication than today that europe will remain as per OTL until maybe even the mid 20th century. I was thinking:
WWI: usa CP, csa apathetic
WWII: usa apathetic (sandwich islands still british), csa CP

Any Ideas for next presidents. I am planning to make Thomas Wilson the 7th CSA president. I still need a sixth. The problem is that all my leaders I am placing in are young.
 
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It is almost a certainty that any Confederate Victorious scenario will lead to a Confederate-Mexican War. The Southerners were almost hell bent on expansion and they had even gone so far as to reject Mexican recognition very early in their existence for the sole reason that they planned to invade and conquer parts of Mexico in the future.
I don't agree, I think that the victorious CSA would turn Inward,
It needs years to recover, and the South is the more Isolationist part of the USA, Here this would be reinforced by Foreign pressures to abolish Slavery.

However if The CS does get Arizona Territory in the Peace Negotiations, Then they may Buy Baja from Maximilian, desperate to get Funds to pay his soldiers after France pulls out.
The New Mexican Republic reputes the sale and a Mex-CS was ensues.
This is one of the few Semi Plausible triggers for a Mex-CS war.
 
California will remain mexican and will eventually succeed. Alaska will remain russian.

Erm, a) it's "secede" and b) by the time of the Civil War California had been American for a decade and a half and was a state. ;)

Democratic: the very popular party and the one of Jefferson Davis, James Longstreet, and both John Fourniers.
Federal: A centrist party that was origionlly for the abolishment of slavery. Party of Robert L. Stuart.
Southern Republican: A abolishment party, is a minor third party who does have status. No leaders have come from this party.

Abolitionist parties have no sway in the South in the 19th C. Lincoln didn't even make the ticket in nine states in the South. The two main parties won't be pro-slavery and sorta anti-slavery, with an abolitionist hanger-on; they'll be a pro-slavery and a really pro-slavery party, with abolitionist parties polling, oh, hundreds -maybe low thousands! :eek:- of votes confederacywide.

I am assuming due to less communication than today that europe will remain as per OTL until maybe even the mid 20th century. I was thinking:
WWI: usa CP, csa apathetic
WWII: usa apathetic (sandwich islands still british), csa CP

Erm... what? Apart from the fact that they had the transatlantic telegraph by then*, you can't seriously be claiming that this will have no effect on Europe until the mid-20th century. It's not like this is the 16th C or anything - and even then communication was as frequent as they could manage. You could claim that it will have little effect because trading an isolationist America for two isolationist Americas doen't make much of a difference, but you can't seriously claim that it will make no difference because Europe won't notice.

*Neal Stephenson called the mid-19th C telegraph net the first internet.

If absolutely nothing else, the Treaty of Versailles was in large part influenced by a pro-Entente southerner. Wilson will not be US president, and a CP US will do crazy things to WWI - you can't just say "the US is fighting the RN in WWI, and things in Europe will remain as per OTL until maybe even the mid 20th century." This isn't even butterflies - this is refusal to follow the logic of your own scenario.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Why don't people try to read the one million five hundred and seventy four other threads about precisely the same subject.
 
I want to propose something really challenging. I know it is almost ASBish, but what about a CSA survives where they do not annex Cuba?
 
These are the presidents of the CSA:
1) Jefferson Davis 1861-1867
2) James Longstreet 1867-1873
3) John Ambrose Fournier 1873-1879
4) R. E. L. Stuart* 1879-1885
5) John A. Fournier Jr.* 1885-1893

*demotes individual who was butterflied into TTL.

It's too early to butterfly new individuals that are old enough to become President into TTL. 1885 is only 25 years after your POD. And if REL Stuart is supposed to be the son of JEB Stuart, then JEB would need to have fathered him by age 11 at the latest and named him after an obscure engineering officer.
 
I don't agree, I think that the victorious CSA would turn Inward, It needs years to recover, and the South is the more Isolationist part of the USA, Here this would be reinforced by Foreign pressures to abolish Slavery.

The problem is some of the CSA would be isolationist, yet others were aggressively expansionist. (For example the Ostend Manifesto, and the acts of various filibusters such as William Walker.)

In a country where any state can leave at any time for any reason, that's problematic.
 
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