A Confederate Empire

You're losing me, friend. I'm usually very forgiving of TLs, but this is a bit too much going in the CSA's favor. Also the UK declaring war again... even in How Few Remain even Turtledove had to make the CSA "emancipate" their slaves, plus a bunch of other stuff to get them on board.
 


The War of 1875

The British wanting to protect the CS despite major abolitionist movement declares War on the United States, the British and Canadians launch a three-prong attack on Michigan,New York,and Maine respectively, the Confederacy manages to push and occupy Washington DC, meanwhile the British occupy the whole State of Maine, the CSN and Royal Navy launch a coastal bombardment of Boston while the British Army advances towards New York City, even worse for the Union, the French also join the War in 1876 joining the British, by 1877, British and French troops invade and occupy New York City and Boston, the Confederacy is nearing Philadelphia, President Blaine urges citizens to stay calm and stays committed to continuing the war, the panic results mass riots and domestic uprisings, particularly in the west, with the war all but lost the US Surrenders

I think you rather underestimate the strength of the abolitionist movement in Britain. Declaring war in support of a slave-owning Confederacy would bring down the British government, and whoever suggested this positively courageous suggestion (1) would find their political career come to an abrupt end. There is a very good chance that the RN would refuse to obey orders to support the Confederacy; the RN had been enthusiastically involved in attempts to end the slave trade. What you are suggesting for Britain would be politically impossible.

There is not the slightest chance that Britain would support the Confederacy under the circumstances you describe. If the war goes badly for Britain, Canada is put at risk. If the Confederacy is expanding and building a navy that is anything more than laughable, with it's expansionism and previously stated policy of bringing the slave trade back into the Caribbean, you are much, much more likely to find Britain cutting the CSA down to size, and supporting the USA.

Why should Britain want to protect the CS? The CS is the expansionist element in North America in this timeline, not the US. Britain's interests are in the Caribbean and Canada. The US threat to Canada after the 1812-14 business was (with the exception of the Fenians in the late 1860s) dealt with by diplomacy, and there is no reason why that should be any different. The CS, however, are expansionist, and potentially threaten the Caribbean.

Unless you've butterflied things away, the British Prime Minister is Disraeli. He was very focused in this time on the newly built Suez canal, and this occupied the vast majority of Cabinet discussions around foreign policy; how to control the canal (80% of ships passing through it were British), concerns over Russian threats to the Canal and India, and a major involvement in the Americas would be exactly what Disraeli and the British government would want to avoid.

Unless there is a bit more of an explanation than you've given, what you are proposing seems remarkably implausible from the British viewpoint.


(1) Using his best "Yes Minister" voice.
 
How can Stonewall Jackson be alive in the 1870's to be President, when he died two months before Gettysburg?
 
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Demands for Abolition
Soon after the War of 1875 ended, the CS would prosper, however soon after the war ended, the UK Demanded that the CSA abolish slavery, wanting to keep a powerful ally, the CS Congress voted to abolish Slavery Nation-wide, however African-Americans in the Confederate States would not be treated fairly, as in the recently purchased territory from Mexico, Blacks in the CS proper would be treated like second-class citizens often forced work under-paying jobs to support their families

Anti-British Sentiment on Both Sides
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With the British taking territory from the US, this was seen as a national humiliation after the War of 1875, many in the US wanted another war with the British, the British had also angered the Confederacy feeling they humiliated the Confederacy into giving up Slavery and their way of life, over the years Confederate and British tensions worsened, leading many to speculate that a War between the two might be nearing, however the US still resented the CS for taking several of the border states and independence in the first place, as the Confederate-British relations crumbled many in the US saw an opportunity for another war to regain lost territory, however many in the US government feared that going to war with both would reconcile the Confederates and the British, although many thought war was Inevitable it seems for now the US had to pick their poison

Civil Unrest in the Confederacy
the first National Party President, George Washington Custis Lee, son of Famed Confederate General Robert E Lee was elected President in 1880, many States Rights politicans were unhappy with his election as he vetoed a bill passed by congress to ban all Religions except for Christianity and supporting things such as Womens Suffrage and improving conditions of African-Americans in the Confederacy, many Conservatives were furious at liberals, saying that their undermining what the Confederacy was founded on.
 
You're losing me, friend. I'm usually very forgiving of TLs, but this is a bit too much going in the CSA's favor. Also the UK declaring war again... even in How Few Remain even Turtledove had to make the CSA "emancipate" their slaves, plus a bunch of other stuff to get them on board.

Ditto here. It seems like HFR (which was plausible enough -ish), but with even more CSA-boosting events. There is no way that the CSA, which was an agriculture-based economy, could double in size within fifteen or twenty years, especially when the land is coming from stronger countries.

- BNC
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I don't see CSA going expansionist.

I can definitely see Confederate expansionism

There might be a strong political faction within the Confederacy with a desire to be expansionist, but they would be opposed by those who would pragmatically point out that it would not be in the interest of the Confederacy to try. After all, even in a best case scenario, a victorious Confederacy will be deeply in debt, will have lost two hundred thousand men, and will be riven by political factions that will no longer have an immediate common enemy to keep them from going at one another's throats. More to the point, trying to expand to the south would very likely bring the Confederacy into conflict with a European power (France if they go for Mexico, Spain if they go for Cuba).

All things considered, it wouldn't be a good idea. But then again, secession wasn't that good an idea and they tried it anyway. ITTL, it will have worked, so maybe they would be misguided enough to give it a shot.
 
There might be a strong political faction within the Confederacy with a desire to be expansionist, but they would be opposed by those who would pragmatically point out that it would not be in the interest of the Confederacy to try. After all, even in a best case scenario, a victorious Confederacy will be deeply in debt, will have lost two hundred thousand men, and will be riven by political factions that will no longer have an immediate common enemy to keep them from going at one another's throats. More to the point, trying to expand to the south would very likely bring the Confederacy into conflict with a European power (France if they go for Mexico, Spain if they go for Cuba).

All things considered, it wouldn't be a good idea. But then again, secession wasn't that good an idea and they tried it anyway. ITTL, it will have worked, so maybe they would be misguided enough to give it a shot.

I don't think outright conquest of Mexico or Cuba would be on the table, but once the Confederacy is on its feet, they might offer support for the Emperor of Mexico in exchange for a port on the Pacific, or might offer to purchase Cuba from the Spanish; they might just wait until Maximilian has been overthrown, then take their chances. Haiti i think was still a Pariah state, and the Dominican Republic was considered a possibility for the post war U.S.
 
The Sonora Purchase
The 1874 Confederate Election would see States Rights candidate Stonewall Jackson win the CS Presidency,he would run on a pro-expansionist platform, he pushed Mexico into selling its northern states to the Confederacy in what would be known as the "Sonora Purchase" would entail the states of Sonora,Chihuahua,Cohaulia,Neuvo Leon,Tamapulias, Baja California, and Baja California Sur being ceded from Mexico to the CSA,

Why on Earth would the Mexican government consent to selling off half of its territory?

And what, pray tell, is the Confederacy paying for half of Mexico with? Breadcrumbs?


all were admitted as CS States,

You realize that States were autonomous political units with self government within the Confederacy? So are you looking at a handful of Spanish speaking states being added to the Confederacy? Spanish Senators and Congressmen? Spanish voting in Presidential elections? I can't see the Confederacy doing that.

with the issue of Hispanic settlers in the territory, they would not be enslaved however

Hispanics, Indians and Meztizos being 99% of the population? Your white American settlers being less than 1%?

White settlers would take precedence over them and racial discrimination would be commonplace with the CS government exploiting the Mexicans as cheap labor,

Remind me again why the Mexican government would do this?

And why the local Hispanic population would put up with it for five minutes?

Remember that OTL, this was the country and the region that bled Napolean 3 white? Why wouldn't they simply rise up in a continuing insurgency until the Confederacy goes bankrupt.
 
Demands for Abolition
Soon after the War of 1875 ended, the CS would prosper, however soon after the war ended, the UK Demanded that the CSA abolish slavery, wanting to keep a powerful ally, the CS Congress voted to abolish Slavery Nation-wide, however African-Americans in the Confederate States would not be treated fairly, as in the recently purchased territory from Mexico, Blacks in the CS proper would be treated like second-class citizens often forced work under-paying jobs to support their families

Slavery was explicitly protected in the CSA's constitution.

Article 1 Section 9(4) said:
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

It would require a constitutional amendment passed by the states which would have been incredibly raucous, considering the entire reason the CSA went to war was for the protection of slavery.
 
1863
Robert E Lee, General of the Army of Northern Virginia orders a right an artillery assault on the Union right flanks, with the Union right flank virtually non-existent the Confederate troops storm Gettysburg, by July 4th the Army of the Potomac retreated east, with Gettysburg in Confederate hands Robert E Lee marches downward to Washington DC, hoping to completely encircle the Union capital and force the US to agree to a peace treaty

Lee's invasion had three main goals. The first one was to upset any summer plans that the Union may have for action in the east and encourage the growth of the peace movement in the north which was met with some success. The second was to relieve pressure indirectly from Vicksburg. Lee assumed that if he invaded then forces from all over the Union would be called back to the east, including significant numbers from Grant's veteran army. This ploy ended up failing, as Grant lost not a single regiment and actually received some reinforcement during this period of time. Thirdly, Lee wanted to be able to have his men be able to live off the rich Northern farmland and give the farms and farmers in Virginia a much needed break. This he also accomplished, driving over 20,000 cattle and 22,000 sheep back into Virginia after the Gettysburg battle.

with superior Confederate diplomacy,
HAHAHAHAHA, The Confederate diplomats did a better job while in prison to get the British to their side[/quote]

the British join the War hoping to gain a major ally in North America in the Confederate States
The British would easily find an ally in the United states if they bloody well wanted an ally. Also, an ally against whom? The British were pretty heavily dependent on the grain imports from the Union during this period of time and I believe that more would complain about the lack of grain then the smaller amounts of cotton that the CSA could potentially give them. The Civil War period was one of booming economic growth for the BNA colonies. The war in the United States created a huge market for Canada's agricultural and manufactured goods, most of which went to the Union.

as a result declare war on the United States and open up a second front occupying Detroit, with troops diverted to the Midwest to deal with British troops
It wouldn't take much to stop an occupation of Detroit from happening in the first place. Burnside (granted, it's Burnside) had around six divisions to call upon within his immediate department. Reinforcements that were slated for Grant (which amount to around 30,000 troops overall) could easily be sent to aid Burnside if need be. The Canadian army would likely number only around 40,000 (as we are going with the number of 20,000 British forces, the amount that was sent to Canada IOTL). 20,000 men volunteered during the Fernaian Raids and I have a hard time figuring that many more would want to go to aid a war for someone that had limited sympathy within the country.

Robert E Lee lays Siege to Washington DC,threatening the United States government, eventually the US Government negotiates a peace Treaty with the CS and British
Good joke. Lee had no intention of marching onto Washington ever really. The whole invasion was meant as a raid and a raid only. The defenses of Washington are simply too strong to take in a single quick stroke, and with the threat of the Army of the Potomac, Lee cannot afford to be pinned down in a protracted campaign for the city. If he hurts the Army of the Potomac badly enough, a city like Baltimore might be open to his troops for a short period of time, but not Washington.

Any prolonged attempt to take Washington brings the threat that the Army of the Potomac will regroup and take Lee in the rear, or any other massed amount of men that the North could rather easily put forth would bleed his army dry. The amount of artillery for the Army of the Potomac numbered some 360 pieces, while the Confederates had 270 pieces, on both sides, half of these were rifled iron pieces, and of the remainder, all but four were smooth-bore bronze Napoleons. The Washington defenses alone contained 807 guns and 98 mortars. With a defense force of 36,000 men. This force would be augmented with another 6,000 emergency troops and another ~4,500 "veteran corps" troops (this were men that had been wounded in battle but could still do second or third rate defensive duties)

Even if the Army of the Potomac is defeated, it will inflict heavy casualties on the opposition. The South does not have an unlimited supply of soldiers or equipment, and if the battle is costly enough, an attack on Washington may very well be impossible given the numbers involved. At the battle of Gettysburg, the Army of Northern Virginia could muster just under 72,000 troops. It suffered roughly 23,000 casualties in that fight, as did the Union Army, which was in a defensive position. Attempting to take Washington so soon after even an alternate Gettysburg could well mean the complete collapse of the Army of Northern Virginia. Unlike the Union Army, the South could not afford the loss of the Army of Northern Virginia

The United States of America cedes the disputed state of Kentucky to the Confederate States
Kentucky had far less Southern sympathies then a state like Missouri did. Fighting continued until the end of the war in Missouri between guerrillas for both sides. Are you also assuming that the U.S is willing to give away all the land (Tennessee, the ports of the Confederacy, Most of Louisiana, half of Arkansas, Arizona territory) plus an additional state?

Alexander Stephens who would defeat National Party Candidate James Longstreet by a close margin
No one in the South really cared for Alexander Stephens. Just saying. He was one of Davis's goons that didn't really know his ass from a hole in the ground.


with Great Britain firmly on the Confederate Side the US looked for ally in case they would back the Confederacy in a second war, the US would be successful in getting an Alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary while France sided with the British and the CSA, the new nation of Italy initially remained neutral but by 1873 it had sided with the Union,German,and Austrian alliance, the alliance was informally called "The Berlin Allies".

The new German nation was still at heavy odds with the Austrian empire. It wasn't until some time after the 1870's that the two started to view each other as allies. It would be even less likely that the Germans would be willing to go against the wishes of Great Britian, which they were hoping to also ally with.

Also, The Russian empire was rather pro-Union during the war too. If push comes to shove, they would be more then happy to support the Union


The 1874 Confederate Election would see States Rights candidate Stonewall Jackson win the CS Presidency
I know that pickings for the presidency would be a bit shit but how good would a dead guy do you think?

he would run on a pro-expansionist platform, he pushed Mexico into selling its northern states to the Confederacy in what would be known as the "Sonora Purchase" would entail the states of Sonora,Chihuahua,Cohaulia,Neuvo Leon,Tamapulias, Baja California, and Baja California Sur being ceded from Mexico to the CSA,
You do also know that the Confederacy had a ~6000% inflation rate right? You can't just flick a switch and recover your economy like that. The Confederate gold reserve was pitiful (amounting to around 3 million at most) and the CSA had a shit load of loans to pay back to the British, French, Dutch, Spanish and Brazilians.

with the issue of Hispanic settlers in the territory, they would not be enslaved however White settlers would take precedence over them and racial discrimination would be commonplace with the CS government exploiting the Mexicans as cheap labor
So you're telling me that all of those Mexican people that just fought a seven year war against France to remain independent are going to let this happen? Mexico was a largely Catholic nation. The South was largely protestant. During the Mexican American war damage to church land and property was rampant as the invading armies marched through Mexico, no matter what the generals tried to do to stop it. Many in the Polk administration and the army feared that this could turn into an all-out religious war.


Not wanting to risk further Confederate Expansion, President James G Blaine, urged US Congress to declare war on the Confederate States, they agreed, and days later Union troops crossed the Potomac, into Manassas, hoping to quickly capture Richmond and bring back the CSA into the Union

the Confederacy managed to keep them at bay and the war would deadlock in Northern Virginia with neither side being able to make significant gains
So,... have a repeat of the starting year of the war? A good amount of men in the Confederacy eneded up dying and a decade isn't very long to replenish men, especially with the 200,000 that ended up going to Brazil IOTL, and all of the settlers that you propose that would be going to the new Mexican territories. At the start of the Orignal war you had a white population of around 4.5 million with a roughly equal amount in slaves. Let's say that some 400,000 are permant casualties from the war, another 200,000 are in Brazil, let's say some 200,000 into Mexico. That's the population down to 3.7 million. Of those, how many do you honestly think will want to have another bloody, deadly fight that is still in their memories?

President Blaine orders an invasion of Kentucky
An invasion would happen on all fronts honestly. Kentucky would also raise up in revolt too since the majority of the state post 1862 was pro-Union. Sure, you still had some elements of Confederate support within the state but it was rather low.

The British wanting to protect the CS despite major abolitionist movement declares War on the United States
And yet again have their people at home go "the fuck are you doing", and rebel against the Government. The food imports from the Union would again stop and everyone in Europe would be wondering how the British government hit their heads that hard.

the British and Canadians launch a three-prong attack on Michigan,New York,and Maine respectively
With what exactly? Are you telling me that the British have every last regular troop (plus many colonial troops) in Canada at this point in time?

the Confederacy manages to push and occupy Washington DC
HAHAHAHAHA

the CSN and Royal Navy launch a coastal bombardment of Boston while the British Army advances towards New York City
And the USN does not exist? What navy would the Confederacy even have? Where the hell would they be getting the money to even do half the shit that they would need too?

the French also join the War in 1876 joining the British
and the new French government would be willing to be in an alliance with the British? You mean the German Empire wouldn't say a damn thing about this even though it's the Union's ally?

British and French troops invade and occupy New York City and Boston
Even though they would be pretty much doing these as amphibious landings? Do you understand how this sort of thing works? Every location would have been very heavily fortified if the Union was expecting another war. No doubt about it.
 
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So...will British and Confederate forces meet up somewhere in the Plains, Elbe-style?

Seriously, this TL seems a bit biased toward the Confederates...hope that won't turn into an outright CSA-wank.
 
So...will British and Confederate forces meet up somewhere in the Plains, Elbe-style?

Seriously, this TL seems a bit biased toward the Confederates...hope that won't turn into an outright CSA-wank.

Even that CSA could win Civil War with any POD is very difficult. But succesful CSA is nearly ASB. ITTL CSA is unrealistic succesful. Allied with UK? Zombie Jackson? Succesful expansive CSA and totally incompetent USA? Abolishment of slavery on 1870's and anyone don't oppose that? No, no, no...
 
Big snips of thorough critique, with which I almost entirely agree.

The British would easily find an ally in the United states if they bloody well wanted an ally. Also, an ally against whom? The British were pretty heavily dependent on the grain imports from the Union during this period of time and I believe that more would complain about the lack of grain then the smaller amounts of cotton that the CSA could potentially give them. The Civil War period was one of booming economic growth for the BNA colonies. The war in the United States created a huge market for Canada's agricultural and manufactured goods, most of which went to the Union.

Regarding Cotton. Following the CSA's rather idiotic removal of cotton from the market at the start of the war in an attempt to put economic pressure on Britain to apply diplomatic pressure, Britain chose the fairly obvious course of action of developing Egypt and India as sources for cotton. By 1863, these were feeding through, relieving the pressure on British textile mills. So, by 1863, the CSA desperately needed foreign income, and without being able to sell their cotton, would become (and did become) an economic basket case. Britain, by far the biggest single market, could choose to buy or not.

It's not a good negotiating position when you have to sell, and they don't have to buy, and in any negotiations, Britain would have held all the cards. Britain also had zero interest in annoying the USA unless British interests were at stake. Put simply, the USA can threaten Canada, and defending Canada would be costly. There is stuff all the CSA can do against British interests, and any attempt at CSA expansion into the Caribbean would quickly bring the RN into play, and the CSA would discover that this wasn't in their best interests.
 
Lee didn't concentrate his artillery at Gettysburg because the Union would have seen him doing it and done the same.Lee knew he couldn't win an artillery duel with the Union,if he'd tried he would have lost irreplaceable artillery assets,leaving the Army of Virginia defenceless in the face of Union firepower, Richmond falls in 1864.
 

Writer begin story from Gettysburg which occurs after Jackson's death and he doesn't mention about Jackson before his presidency. So if POD is surviving Jackson it should make clear.

And it would be good if writer himself too participate these discussions about his TL.
 
Is Turtledove Southern Victory Books your inspiration? I ask because this is becoming quite similar to the TL on those books.

darthfanta said:
For once,I'm actually sad that TFSmith is no longer here to present his facts.

He would have an hearth attack.
 
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