A Communist CSA?

Am I the only one who suspects that if the Confederates had won the Civil War, things would have been perfect for a communist revolution? After all, we would most likely have:

-A disunited nation
-Massive social inequality
-A distinct lack of upward mobility
-A backward, mostly agricultural economy

It certainly seems ripe for the reds to me.
 

Asami

Banned
The problem is, you'd need a widespread group of people capable of understanding even basic socialist/communist ideology and have militarism. The slaves were notably sub-par in their education to the point where many were illiterate... Provided you gave the Southern poor the right tools and political charisma, then yes, I could see commies in the CSA.

The white yeomans didn't have upward mobility, but they would've got some semblance of rights because they were white.
 
The problem is, you'd need a widespread group of people capable of understanding even basic socialist/communist ideology and have militarism. The slaves were notably sub-par in their education to the point where many were illiterate... Provided you gave the Southern poor the right tools and political charisma, then yes, I could see commies in the CSA.

The white yeomans didn't have upward mobility, but they would've got some semblance of rights because they were white.

Literacy rates were terrible in the Russian Empire prior to the revolution as well, as they were in many of the areas where Marxism spread, such revolutions rely on word of mouth and action, mass reading of the literature isn't particularly necessary.

Though I'd be sceptical that the US would tolerate a large Communist state on their border, any such revolution is likely to end with US occupation and re-annexation, with the narrative of the revolutionaries rewritten as a general struggle for liberty. A somewhat viable socialist/communist party could come out of reconstruction however.
 
Though I'd be sceptical that the US would tolerate a large Communist state on their border, any such revolution is likely to end with US occupation and re-annexation, with the narrative of the revolutionaries rewritten as a general struggle for liberty. A somewhat viable socialist/communist party could come out of reconstruction however.

I suspect that if the CSA survived that the USA would be at least somewhat more tolerant of any ideology that tore down slavery and the Confederacy. It would prove to the abolitionists and Unionists that they were right all along. And communist Southerners are possibly likely to view the USA moderately favorably in light of the USA's attempt to end slavery. If the Confederacy devolved into chaos like Russia did during the revolution I think that you're right about the USA re-annexing it.
 
Literacy rates were terrible in the Russian Empire prior to the revolution as well, as they were in many of the areas where Marxism spread, such revolutions rely on word of mouth and action, mass reading of the literature isn't particularly necessary.

Though I'd be sceptical that the US would tolerate a large Communist state on their border, any such revolution is likely to end with US occupation and re-annexation, with the narrative of the revolutionaries rewritten as a general struggle for liberty. A somewhat viable socialist/communist party could come out of reconstruction however.

Re-annexation is a bit of a stretch, especially as time progresses. However, I could definitely see the US taking preemptive action against the communists in the CSA.
 
I believe that an independent CSA would turn into a mini Russian Empire.
Eventually the slaves would be emancipated.
Eventually their would be political turmoil.
I honestly believe Communism was inevitable, just a gut feeling.
 

Alkahest

Banned
I'm honestly very surprised that communism never became more popular among poor African-Americans IOTL, and I vaguely remember discussing that topic here ages ago. It seems like an ideology tailor-made to fit such a clearly defined group with a history of being exploited, according to any definition of the word.
 

Lateknight

Banned
I'm honestly very surprised that communism never became more popular among poor African-Americans IOTL, and I vaguely remember discussing that topic here ages ago. It seems like an ideology tailor-made to fit such a clearly defined group with a history of being exploited, according to any definition of the word.

For a long time to accepted even marginally accepted in society they had to act very conformist with mainstream culture act more white than whites if you will. So the "respectable" community leaders had an interest in dispelling any radical appearing ideology.
 
Contrary to popular belief, the CSA had a strong central government, with a modern expansive Weberian bureaucracy and many aspects of a planned economy. (Source: Yankee Leviathan, Bensel).

This statism would have probably provided an insulation against communism in the CSA, because there was a step between laissez-faire economics and dictatorship of the proletariat that would sate the demands of most poor white social reformers.

As for communism coming from the slaves, no. Slaves in a CSA trimuphant would have only been kept knowledgeable in their current tasks(and even then barely so), the ideology of communism cannot take root in a population that has no knowledge of life outside the plantation, much less Marxist political theory. Plantations are, for those toiling on them, effectively closed societies, it would be very easy to control the information coming in or out in order to keep a damper on a communist insurgency. There would be slave revolts, certainly, but no great class struggle.
 
I can see it coming from poor whites who feel, probably rightly so, denied success from the aristocracy/oligarchy. They might find common cause with blacks after slavery is done away but racial tensions might divide them. If they are divided the revolution will probably fail and a military dictatorship will probably be set up in the CSA.
 
I can see it coming from poor whites who feel, probably rightly so, denied success from the aristocracy/oligarchy. They might find common cause with blacks after slavery is done away but racial tensions might divide them. If they are divided the revolution will probably fail and a military dictatorship will probably be set up in the CSA.


Slavery was the only reason the CSA existed. It would take decades, if not centuries, for abolition to be a viable option in the CSA(I'd put the earliest possible date of abolition to be 1955- the date at which the Confederate political sphere is no longer controlled by those born before the ACW or in the generation directly proceeding it).

Even without slavery, there's still centuries and centuries of racist rhetoric to overcome. A poor white in the South saw himself as better than even a rich black, to say nothing of a slave. The poor of both races joining in arms together isn't possible within the timeframe given, especially because the Confederate government would be doing all in their power to keep poor whites on their side, including providing government services* for them and a heavy increase in racist rhetoric after victoy.

*In an effort to keep poor whites' opinions of the Confederate government high, I can see a CSA having a modern welfare state before the USA does. :eek:
 
I can see it coming from poor whites who feel, probably rightly so, denied success from the aristocracy/oligarchy. They might find common cause with blacks after slavery is done away but racial tensions might divide them. If they are divided the revolution will probably fail and a military dictatorship will probably be set up in the CSA.
Yeah, basically the Cuban model. Blacks and poor/idealistic whites making common cause, but with the latter very clearly in charge.

The CS government isn't going to do crap. Remember, despite its massive bureaucracy, this is a government that has chosen to constitutionally tie its hands against even funding infrastructure and "internal improvements," much less substantive welfare programs. There won't be the political will to push through even a farce of a welfare state before the SHTF. There also won't be the recognition that one is even necessary; keep in mind that the whole thing is run by planter elites who interact almost exclusively with each other & their slaves and whose idea of hardship is having to borrow money from their parents.
 
So basically, the options for a post-war CSA are...

1.) Aristocracy maintains power and preserves slavery by creating a welfare state for whites, or...

2.) White lower class overthrows aristocracy, then goes on to oppress blacks once again.

3.) Foreign intervention, which will probably destroy or puppetize the CSA altogether. Which makes the war of secession rather pointless to begin with.

Am I missing something, or are these the only options? Because logic tells me nothing good can come out of an independent Dixie.
 
So basically, the options for a post-war CSA are...

1.) Aristocracy maintains power and preserves slavery by creating a welfare state for whites, or...

2.) White lower class overthrows aristocracy, then goes on to oppress blacks once again.

3.) Foreign intervention, which will probably destroy or puppetize the CSA altogether. Which makes the war of secession rather pointless to begin with.

Am I missing something, or are these the only options? Because logic tells me nothing good can come out of an independent Dixie.
As far as I can tell, you're not missing anything, unless you want to go into ASB territory.
 
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