A Coast Guard Helicopter Carrier

So, bit of context first.
My dad has worked for the US Coast Guard for a large portion of my life, 13 years or so, so the Coast Guard has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember, pretty much. He's been a part of many projects during that time, and is currently Head of Logistics for the new Polar Icebreaker program. In my mind, it seems like he is often the only one who takes his job seriously. I've often presented him with suggestions that, as a child, I thought would "improve" the USCG. So far, this is one of the only ones I've stuck with, the other being the adoption of flying boats.

So yeah, for the longest time, I've thought the Coast Guard needed a helicopter carrier. Now in particular, after i don't even know how many hurricanes in a row, I'm still sticking with this idea. Trust me, I know all the reasons why this isn't that great of an idea, it's a conversation I've had many, many times. But still, feel free to, I'd love to talk about it more!

Just, I kinda want to know if there are any reasons if it's a good idea.
 
To make this a good idea, you need to come up with a reason for the Coast Guard to need lots of helicopters in one place routinely - since the US also has amphibious warfare ships you've got the emergency (hurricane, etc.) role covered. So while I can think of PoDs that make it a good idea (the most obvious being that the Coast Guard retains an ASW role after WW2 - )
 
To make this a good idea, you need to come up with a reason for the Coast Guard to need lots of helicopters in one place routinely - since the US also has amphibious warfare ships you've got the emergency (hurricane, etc.) role covered. So while I can think of PoDs that make it a good idea (the most obvious being that the Coast Guard retains an ASW role after WW2 - )

Well that is nice, but way to manpower intensive for the Coast Guard. But mayby a variant of this "https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2017/1...sion-vessel-for-state-maritime-academies/XXXX" (remove XXXX). Kind of an mobile base for relief operations in the Gulf/Caribian.

Ok, thanks! I always imagined it being around the size of a. CVE as opposed to a full-size assault ship. And the retention of ASW capability would certainly be nice.
 
The Coast Guard did have a helicopter Carrier, the worlds first in fact, USCGC Cobb (WPG-181) from 1943-1946. If you can find a more reliable ship to be converted you could probably have that vessel serve a lot longer than Cobb did and possibly get replaced
 
As someone who used to do this for a living (USCG) I can tell you the biggest reason it won't fly (which I'm sure you already know) MONEY. We were and are the poor sister of the military. Our funding has always been precarious, in part due to the culture of "Can Do" that strays into masochism. To change this, you need an unusually strong amount of Congressional support (several states worth at least) 3-5 Commandants in succession who have not allowed their testicles to atrophy, and a REASON for the ship. Our ships are always multi use type vessels. They have to be twin screwed for maneuverability during rescue ops, they need to be capable of towing a vessel their own size so need a decent towing bit (that may have been dropped in the last cutter class, which will bite us in the ass at some point) space and weight reserved for weapons to possibly be fitted, minimum manned crew (this will be smaller than USN vessels) and fitted with economical engines. The old 378's (Hamilton class) were used for NGFS, ASW, Rescue, drug and alien interdiction, oceanographic research and probably a couple other things I don't remember. They also need to be relatively shallow draft vessels. We operate in close to outside the FCMZ (Fisheries Conservation and Management Zone) so a deep draft, large vessel isn't what we can use. Where would the crew come from? We are stretched thin now as always, so taking them from one mission area to another isn't possible. Will Congress pass a law authorizing an increase in personnel strength for this? Our weaponry is from NAVORD funds (Naval Ordnance Funding, ie, the USN's pocketbook) what is going to motivate them to provide the money for this, what do they get in return?
The only possible way I can see this happening is if there is a massive, cataclysmic loss of life from a cruise ship outside helo range with the US having most of the casualties. While I consider that only a matter of time (saying, IMO, it's a probability, not possibility) that still may not be enough. When you consider the challenges involved in this (cultural inertia, with CMDT's unwilling to buck the system) interservice rivalry (there is some bad blood between the USN and the USMC and USCG) lack of Congressional support, and the funding, this borders on ASB. Wish it weren't so, but it is what it is.
Please pass my regards to your father, tell him "Semper Paratus" for me.
GM1 Bill Martin, USCG (RET)
 
So, I did some research last night. At first I was completely dismissive of the idea because of the typically large crew requirement of a helicopter carrier would put it well outside the reach of the Coast Guard. However, I discover the JMSDF ship Hyuga has a crew of "only" 360. That's a lot smaller than I thought, but still there are some issues with even a small ship like this.

  • 360 crew members is a requirement that is 2 to 3 times large found on the high endurance cutter classes like the new Legends and the aging Hamilitons. A single ship of this time would take 1% of the USCGs strength.
  • Warships generally work in with a rule of three. That is in order to guarantee having one ship available at any given time you would need to procure 2 others of the same class.
  • A fully loaded Hyuga class helicopter destroyer has 4 times the displacement of the largest USCG ship. They may not have the institutional knowledge to handle a ship this large.
  • The class only goes to sea with 3 helicopters. This is only 1 more than a Legend class cutter goes to sea with.
  • The Hyuga does have room for 18 helicopters. To fill out an air wing would require over 10% of the USCG's helicopter fleet. It would probably dramatically increase the crew as well.
  • This would be the single most expensive procurement program in the history of the Coast Guard. By a country mile.
  • A ship this large becomes a major national security asset. That means it would probably require escorts.
  • I'm sure the Navy would have some things to say about the Coast Guard operating its own carrier.
  • A carrier of any type is arguably an offensive weapons platform. That is well outside the Coast Guard's mission set.
Frankly, I'm not seeing what mission this ship would have that cannot be carried out by any other ship or installation. The Coast Guard can effectively patrol the United States' territorial waters from shore based installations. Most large cutters can carry a few birds to help patrol. For a disaster like a hurricane there is typically enough of a warning to muster assets to the region that will be effected beforehand. For humanitarian relief after the disaster the US Navy and Air Force will be much more effective anyway. The only remotely applicable mission set would be a mass casualty event at see, and how likely would it that a single USCG carrier would be within air range of the ship in time to help? The money and other resources would probably be more useful in buying more cutters.
 
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OK how to get a CG helicopter carrier?

My take would be that it needs to be during the late cold war before the peace dividend so that the USN is happy and busy with plenty of cash to spend.
The war mission would be to protect the reforger convoys as a slow escort isn't fun and sexy so might pass under the navy radar, it would have to be cheap and have a small crew so slow and diesels with limited weapons. They would be bought instead of framing the Hamilton class.

Say something more like RFA Argus than JMSDF Hyuga?
  • 20,000t big and built like a merchant ship
  • Crew of 160, wartime will significantly increase with added air wing crew.
  • 2 diesels, twin propellers and a bow-thruster for 22Kn and large oil tanks so they can stay out of port for the duration of WWIII or refuel the navy
  • Large flight deck with 4 landing spots on rear 2/3rds of ship with hangar underneath served by a single elevator at stern. Air wing 2x Sikorsky S-61R but space for 9 in hangar, in wartime she could operate 12 S-61R/SH-3 (2 in air 1 on deck and 9 in hangar)
  • 1x 76 mm (3 in)/62 caliber and multiple .5" BMGs with space for, 8x RGM-84 harpoon, 2x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS and 2x Mk 32 SVTT
  • 2 large and 1 medium Ribs deployed from doors in side of hangar midships

 
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I can't think what it would be, but were the CG to be tasked with a extended multi year mission out of reach of available US bases, maybe blue water? Something for which it is legally awkward for the USN to do? Fastest way to do this is second a appropriate USN ship to the CG, maybe from the Gator navy.
 
What if the drug cartels got better supplied in the 70's and early 80's so by the late 80's early 90's the coast guard need some air support off of central America and south America.
 
What if the drug cartels got better supplied in the 70's and early 80's so by the late 80's early 90's the coast guard need some air support off of central America and south America.
Then you call in the Navy. It's a lot cheaper, and sends a clearer message to the Cartels.
 
As has been mentioned before, what missions could the CG be tasked with that would require that many birds in the air at any given time?
I guess (again repeating what's already been said), a mass casualty situation like a cruise ship disaster could warrant it, but if a small, efficient ship has the capacity to lift that many birds, how is it going to have the capacity to deal with that many victims as well?

Not to mention; doesn't the CG already have boats like that?
The new NSC boats carry 2 Dolphins, and there are several other classes that carry helos as well.

HH-65-Dolphin-helicopter-310.preview.jpg
 
Then you call in the Navy. It's a lot cheaper, and sends a clearer message to the Cartels.
I get that but it's the Coast Guard today that does that job and has for there whole history the Navy is too busy doing other jobs. same could be said if there was a group of highly armed pirates in the western hemisphere. I could see the coast guard being tasked with escorting our private cargo vessels.
 
I get that but it's the Coast Guard today that does that job and has for there whole history the Navy is too busy doing other jobs. same could be said if there was a group of highly armed pirates in the western hemisphere. I could see the coast guard being tasked with escorting our private cargo vessels.
Whose private cargo ships?

And for pirates, companies just tend to bring a few of these guys along.

hqdefault.jpg
 
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I get that but it's the Coast Guard today that does that job and has for there whole history the Navy is too busy doing other jobs. same could be said if there was a group of highly armed pirates in the western hemisphere. I could see the coast guard being tasked with escorting our private cargo vessels.
Here's the thing.

When you ask for a ship, you have to be looking ahead in time to when you need it. Let's say they order a spare Iwo-Jima class. Time to make one of those from laying down to commissioning is about, oh, 2 years and some change.

So you need to be looking at least two years into the future, if not more because these ships will last for quite a while if maintained properly.

So is there going to be something in the future that the USCG NEEDS a helicopter carrier, which necessitates a massive staff increase, it also means needing docks that can handle the new ship class, as well as having to obtain more helicopters to operate off the carrier.

All of which are pretty dang expensive. By contrast, asking the Navy to just help ride along and take out the trash from any pirates, who if they exist, sure as hell aren't doing shite in the US's backyard for fear of a F/A-18 squadron turning their base into a parking lot.
 
I fifteenth the other comments here.

Even taking your premise that there could be a useful role for a helicopter carrier inside the Coast Guard's area of operations, Polyus, you can expect the other services that already have helicopter carriers -- namely the Marines and the Navy -- will argue that:

(a) the mission profile the Coast Guard has in mind could be done by their ships whenever needed without a custom-built Coast Guard carrier, and

(b) the Coast Guard won't need to call on this ship often enough to justify having its own.

And therefore that the funding for this should go to them instead, on a promise that they be authorized to help out the Coast Guard with whatever this hypothetical mission is.

Now I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's wrong. I've never served in the Coast Guard and wouldn't know. But this sees like setting up the Coast Guard for a bureaucratic and political resource battle where it will be at a very serious disadvantage.
 
Ok, so, first of all, was not expecting this to get as much of a response as it did, so thanks!! And, like I said, I realize that this is kinda a dumb idea, most ideas that nine-year olds have are.

As someone who used to do this for a living (USCG) I can tell you the biggest reason it won't fly (which I'm sure you already know) MONEY. We were and are the poor sister of the military. Our funding has always been precarious, in part due to the culture of "Can Do" that strays into masochism. To change this, you need an unusually strong amount of Congressional support (several states worth at least) 3-5 Commandants in succession who have not allowed their testicles to atrophy, and a REASON for the ship. Our ships are always multi use type vessels. They have to be twin screwed for maneuverability during rescue ops, they need to be capable of towing a vessel their own size so need a decent towing bit (that may have been dropped in the last cutter class, which will bite us in the ass at some point) space and weight reserved for weapons to possibly be fitted, minimum manned crew (this will be smaller than USN vessels) and fitted with economical engines. The old 378's (Hamilton class) were used for NGFS, ASW, Rescue, drug and alien interdiction, oceanographic research and probably a couple other things I don't remember. They also need to be relatively shallow draft vessels. We operate in close to outside the FCMZ (Fisheries Conservation and Management Zone) so a deep draft, large vessel isn't what we can use. Where would the crew come from? We are stretched thin now as always, so taking them from one mission area to another isn't possible. Will Congress pass a law authorizing an increase in personnel strength for this? Our weaponry is from NAVORD funds (Naval Ordnance Funding, ie, the USN's pocketbook) what is going to motivate them to provide the money for this, what do they get in return?
The only possible way I can see this happening is if there is a massive, cataclysmic loss of life from a cruise ship outside helo range with the US having most of the casualties. While I consider that only a matter of time (saying, IMO, it's a probability, not possibility) that still may not be enough. When you consider the challenges involved in this (cultural inertia, with CMDT's unwilling to buck the system) interservice rivalry (there is some bad blood between the USN and the USMC and USCG) lack of Congressional support, and the funding, this borders on ASB. Wish it weren't so, but it is what it is.
Please pass my regards to your father, tell him "Semper Paratus" for me.
GM1 Bill Martin, USCG (RET)

I'll be sure to keep this in mind! I remember my dad getting annoyed at the Navy's insistence at installing a pair of 25mm Bushmasters onto the new Polar icebreaker.

Also, I want to save space, so I'll bring up my other two dumb CG ideas. Idea one is the re-adoption of flying boats, specifically the ShinMaywa US-2. The other is at least evaluating the Cb90.
 
Ok, so, first of all, was not expecting this to get as much of a response as it did, so thanks!! And, like I said, I realize that this is kinda a dumb idea, most ideas that nine-year olds have are.
I'll be sure to keep this in mind! I remember my dad getting annoyed at the Navy's insistence at installing a pair of 25mm Bushmasters onto the new Polar icebreaker.
Also, I want to save space, so I'll bring up my other two dumb CG ideas. Idea one is the re-adoption of flying boats, specifically the ShinMaywa US-2. The other is at least evaluating the Cb90.
I could certainly see CG adoption of flying boats.
It's too bad things with Russia are so bad, I'd love to see some of the Beriev creations in USCG colors, the Be-200 or a civilian version of the A-40.

be_200.jpg
 
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