A Christian Mongol Empire....

To begin.....the two decades of the 1240s and 1260s are pivotal to the discussion....the 1240s saw the Mongol Empire expanded by conquest into Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, and as far south as Romania. The 1260s saw the empire expand to its maximum limit in the Middle East.

OTL, the Mongols gradually abandoned Tengriism (spell check on that word) in favor of Islam. Gradually, in Persia, the Mongols were absorbed into the general population...to rise again several times...most notably under Timur (Tamerlane). In Russia, the Christian populations gradually threw off the 'Tatar yoke', then began to conquer the fragmented Golden Horde, with the Crimean Khanate being the last European piece of the old Mongol Empire conquered in 1783 (they had been a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire).

Now, what if instead of converting to Islam....the Golden Horde had converted to Greek Orthodox Christianity. Would the Horde's feuds with the Ilkhanate in support of the Horde's Mameluke allies have taken on a religious dimension? Could a Western crusading force join with a Horde army and capture Jerusalem? Would the Mongols in Russia have been absorbed more and driven out less if they were Christians? What of the relations with the other Mongol states, such as the Yuan Empire, and Chagatai Khanate?

If you would like to make a map of how you think a Christian Golden Horde would relate, please do :D
 
The scenario is...unlikely. They wouldn't convert to Christanity because besides the fact that most Chistians were Europeans who were considered backwater even to the Mongols and the Mongol Elite wanted to preserve their identity and eliteism so they did not wish to get closer to the masses they ruled.

Instead of Greek Orthodox the more likely conversion would have been Nestorian Christanity given the influence of certain Nestorian Mongol women...enfact the more likely scenario is the ILKKHANATE converts to Nestorianism given that Hulagu Khan's mother was Nestorian.
 
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Agree with the above, though I've also sat around speculating about a Russian Orthodox Golden Horde. What were the circumstances behind the GH's conversion in OTL? You'd have to manipulate the circumstances so that Russian Orthodoxy offers them whatever Islam did. Maybe tighter collaboration between the Khans and the Russian princes could encourage the spread of Christianity among the former.

Could geography play a role? If the GH lost parts of Central Asia to the Chagatai or Ilkhans it might lead to a more Russia-centered khanate.
 
Jingis Khan is said to have invited Christian preachers as well to his court - among Muslim and Buddhist ones, and without favoring one of those particularly. However, it is doubtful whether that is true.

The funny thing about Christian Mongols is that it is expression of a great dream of the crusaders': Prester John, who falls into the Muslims' back with his enormous army and relieves the crusaders from the struggle with them.
But I am not convinced that such an alliance would necessarily be established with a Christian Horde ...
 

Keenir

Banned
Jingis Khan is said to have invited Christian preachers as well to his court - among Muslim and Buddhist ones, and without favoring one of those particularly. However, it is doubtful whether that is true.

it was...but it wasn't for the purpose of determining which one faith to adopt. it was to increase one's good luck (the more gods I have on my side, the more likely I'll have victories)

or something to that effect.
 
The Mongols were the ultimate pragmatists. I would suggest they should conquer a territory that contains a majority of Christians. The territory should be large enough that it eventually gets split into its own Khanate, and the leader of that Khanate would most likely convert. Remember, the Mongols would do/say anything to keep/gain power.
 
Ohh... A tough POD but it is possible:)
basically speaking have Batu Khan die before he signs an alliance with true mamlukes. Now you see Genghis khan had not really chosen a relegion for himself, so first have Ogedei Khan live thus Subodei can succesfuly conquer eastern Europe, what happens is their is a orthodox majority, so what could occur is have Batu died like above and have the Byzantines send missionaries to mongol lands. Have a mongol ruler marry some eastern orthodox princess or at least as a concubines who then exerts great influence to him. Have the IIkhanites succesfully invade and destroy the Mamelukes. With this completed I could see the som of a union among the Genghisid and princess who is highly influenced by his mothe. And converts to orthodox christianity. Thus you have a orthdox golden horde. In otl Batu was the main Islamic conert who spread the relegion across the golden horde so just have him die.:)

How is this pod:)
 
In otl Batu was the main Islamic conert who spread the relegion across the golden horde so just have him die.:)
How is this pod:)

Not sure that this is completely correct, but it doesn't take much tweaking to get to a similar pod. I think that Batu followed the traditional Mongol religion. Batu's son and immediate successor, Sartak, was definitely a Christian (probably Nestorian). Had he lived and reigned longer than the year he lasted in otl, the Horde might have followed his example. Sartak was followed by Ulaqchi, a child ruler who also reigned less than a year, then Berke, Batu's brother, a committed Muslim who allied with the Mamelukes against the Ilkhans. If Sartak lived longer and Berke died early, you could come up with a Christian Horde.

This might keep the Ilkhans and Golden Horde from each other's throats long enough for the Ilkhans to attack the Mamelukes and avenge the battle of Ain Jalut. It would keep the Crusader states alive, I think, but not allow them to regain the lands they lost to Saladin. The Mongols would have done the heavy lifting in the campaign and would get the lion's share of the conquests.
 
Kublai Khan invited Marco Polo's father to bring Christian missionaries with him, but none persevered through the journey. I recall reading somewhere that he was seriously considering adopting Christianity at the time, but that author might have just been speculating.
 
Kublai Khan invited Marco Polo's father to bring Christian missionaries with him, but none persevered through the journey. I recall reading somewhere that he was seriously considering adopting Christianity at the time, but that author might have just been speculating.

If Kubilai Khan's Christian mother couldn't convince him to adopt , a handful of missionaries wouldn't be able to either. Besides, even if a handful of high-ranking Mongols adopted Christianity, the Mongols as a whole probably wouldn't, given they kept their shamanistic practices till the 16th and 17th centuries. They tended to adopt the religions of the conquered regions, as opposed to enacting any pan-empire religious policies.
 
Agree with the above, though I've also sat around speculating about a Russian Orthodox Golden Horde. What were the circumstances behind the GH's conversion in OTL? You'd have to manipulate the circumstances so that Russian Orthodoxy offers them whatever Islam did. Maybe tighter collaboration between the Khans and the Russian princes could encourage the spread of Christianity among the former.

Could geography play a role? If the GH lost parts of Central Asia to the Chagatai or Ilkhans it might lead to a more Russia-centered khanate.

Lets use that argument....the Golden Horde khanate loses part of its eastern lands to the Chagatai or Ilkhanate. Give me your idea or opinion on how the Golden Horde could theoretically become Christianized

To everyone else, thanks for your posts. My first thread seemed to draw in a good debating group, and that makes me happy :D
 
Ohh... A tough POD but it is possible:)
basically speaking have Batu Khan die before he signs an alliance with true mamlukes. Now you see Genghis khan had not really chosen a relegion for himself, so first have Ogedei Khan live thus Subodei can succesfuly conquer eastern Europe, what happens is their is a orthodox majority, so what could occur is have Batu died like above and have the Byzantines send missionaries to mongol lands. Have a mongol ruler marry some eastern orthodox princess or at least as a concubines who then exerts great influence to him. Have the IIkhanites succesfully invade and destroy the Mamelukes. With this completed I could see the som of a union among the Genghisid and princess who is highly influenced by his mothe. And converts to orthodox christianity. Thus you have a orthdox golden horde. In otl Batu was the main Islamic conert who spread the relegion across the golden horde so just have him die.:)

How is this pod:)

Alexius, you are a gentleman and a scholar :)
 
Not sure that this is completely correct, but it doesn't take much tweaking to get to a similar pod. I think that Batu followed the traditional Mongol religion. Batu's son and immediate successor, Sartak, was definitely a Christian (probably Nestorian). Had he lived and reigned longer than the year he lasted in otl, the Horde might have followed his example. Sartak was followed by Ulaqchi, a child ruler who also reigned less than a year, then Berke, Batu's brother, a committed Muslim who allied with the Mamelukes against the Ilkhans. If Sartak lived longer and Berke died early, you could come up with a Christian Horde.

This might keep the Ilkhans and Golden Horde from each other's throats long enough for the Ilkhans to attack the Mamelukes and avenge the battle of Ain Jalut. It would keep the Crusader states alive, I think, but not allow them to regain the lands they lost to Saladin. The Mongols would have done the heavy lifting in the campaign and would get the lion's share of the conquests.

I agree, though I could see a Jerusalem placed under a governor favorable to the Mongols...maybe due to their mutual hatred of the Mamelukes?

Anyways, if anyone wants to create a map to further illustrate their scenarios for how a Christianized Golden Horde would fit in with its neighbors, Mongol and non-Mongol...please do so. I look forward to seeing them.
 
Not sure that this is completely correct, but it doesn't take much tweaking to get to a similar pod. I think that Batu followed the traditional Mongol religion. Batu's son and immediate successor, Sartak, was definitely a Christian (probably Nestorian). Had he lived and reigned longer than the year he lasted in otl, the Horde might have followed his example. Sartak was followed by Ulaqchi, a child ruler who also reigned less than a year, then Berke, Batu's brother, a committed Muslim who allied with the Mamelukes against the Ilkhans. If Sartak lived longer and Berke died early, you could come up with a Christian Horde.

This might keep the Ilkhans and Golden Horde from each other's throats long enough for the Ilkhans to attack the Mamelukes and avenge the battle of Ain Jalut. It would keep the Crusader states alive, I think, but not allow them to regain the lands they lost to Saladin. The Mongols would have done the heavy lifting in the campaign and would get the lion's share of the conquests.

I might contemplate on taking this challenge, but I've got a thread that I need to complete first. So for the part on 'what if Sartaq lived longer', I was thinking that maybe Berke poisons himself by accident instead of Berke poisoning Sartaq with a cup of tea.
 
I read a great TL in which Genghis Khan is converted to Judaism by a family slave named Deborah, then proceeds to change his name to Judah, unite the Mongols under Judaism and conquer the world. The story is set as his son Solomon is building the Third Temple in Xi'an.
 
This is not terribly likely IMO, unless the Golden Horde takes Constantinople. Otherwise the Mongols Khans would be answerable to Archbishop of the eastern church. The Mongols tend to adopt the religion of their subjects. As the GH was based in Central Asia, this necessarily meant Islam.

A Greek Orthodox horde would likely mean all of Russia and perhaps Hungary would be conquered and the base of power for the new horde shifts west. The relationship between the Golden Horde and the Il Khanate would be interesting.

Even a conquest of Eastern Europe may not compel the GH to choose Christianity. Islam has a lot to offer for conquerors. The ruling elite all get to be polygamous and the Khan himself would have far less political competition from the clergy.
 
If the Golden Horde for whatever reason adopts Orthodoxy, they'll probably assimilate into the Russian mass they ruled over.

Adopting Nestorianism, besides being less foreign, would also allow them to keep the ruler-ruled distinction going.
 
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