A Christian Golden Horde?

I will admit that I do not know a lot about this particular region during this period, but I came up with this idea whilst playing a bit of Europa Unviersalis III.

What are the chances of the Golden Horde (or another Mongol successor state covering southern Russia and western Central Asia) converting to Christianity rather than Islam? The conversion of the Golden Horde to Islam was a very 'top-to-bottom' procedure, with Uzbeg Khan converting to Islam which he followed up with the forced conversion of the entire Horde. Would it be possible for a similar procedure involving Christianity, or was Christian influence too small in the Mongol courts for it to take place?

I also recall that many European rulers wished to see a Christian Mongol successor to assist them against the Muslims. What might they do now with a large Christian ally in southern Russia? And finally, what kind of legacy might it leave after its fall? Would the independent Christian Khanate's survive the unification of Russia (if it takes place at all) without the traditional Russian excuse of pushing Islam back?

What do you think?
 
You'd need some incentive for a Christian khan willing to do a conversion as brutal as Uzbeg. What is that incentive?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think it's unlikely, Islam was already strong among the Turks in the horde, while Christianity had only a relative small following. But if it happen it would be quite revolutionary for the later development of Russia, with the Tartars being Christians rather than Muslims, it would likely mean that they was better integrated into Russian society, helping them to survive better as a people, of course it depends on what kind of Christianity they convert too, the Russians seem to have disliked Catholics more than Muslim, while the Golden Horde are even in case of conversion unlikely to convert to Catholism, if they convert to theNestorian Church, the Russian may extent their dislike to these. Through conversion may also result in them spreading it to their Slavic subjects, resulting in the Horde assimilating into the farmer population, which would give them a chance to survive as a state.
 
You'd need some incentive for a Christian khan willing to do a conversion as brutal as Uzbeg. What is that incentive?

What was the incentive for the Islamic brutal conversion?

These guys put the 'Brut' in brutal, regardless of religion. I don't know much about the period or the peoples either (only have a finite reading time) but would it maybe be fair to say they started the whole 'convert or die' fanaticism? :)

I'm curious as the motivation behind the brutal islamic conversion in that it may be reversible/modifiable to suit for a christian conversion... in which case, the east gets... interesting.
 
What was the incentive for the Islamic brutal conversion?

These guys put the 'Brut' in brutal, regardless of religion. I don't know much about the period or the peoples either (only have a finite reading time) but would it maybe be fair to say they started the whole 'convert or die' fanaticism? :)

I'm curious as the motivation behind the brutal islamic conversion in that it may be reversible/modifiable to suit for a christian conversion... in which case, the east gets... interesting.
Catholicism has an ethos of Holy War that developed over the Crusades so it's not like there's no history or theology for attacking the Islamic Turks. In fact it could be done as a response to military defeats of the Ilkhanate (i.e. the reverse of what actually happened). The problem is that Orthodox Christianity DIDN'T have the Holy War idea until much later.

Hmm.... what it there is a conversion to Orthodox Christianity to gain the allegiance of the Russian Slavs against the Islamic Turkic elements? Perhaps in response to an attempt by Uzbeg or someone else to rebel and set up an Islamic polity at the expense of the Horde.
 
If there was a massive disagreement among the Khans, and one of them REALLY wanted Russian support, maybe.

Or the Kipchaks were more Christianised to start with, before the Mongols take them over.
 
MNPundit said:
The problem is that Orthodox Christianity DIDN'T have the Holy War idea until much later.

Bah :)

Then the Golden Horde *creates* the idea. First with the equivalent of a civil war, then start attacking any non-Christian.


Wait a minute - would that lead to a Golden Horde Crusade across the East?

Anyway, my root point is that the culture that picks up Christianity is impacted by it - that's obvious. But the converse is also try, that the religion is impacted by the culture, and changes in the process. ( Kinda of like a missionary game of 'Telephone' when one missionary converts 2 natives, each of them converts 2 more, and on in exponential growth.)

So if you Christianize the pagans, they'll keep some of their older beliefs or traditions... the things they are used to. So if a murderous Golden Horde is Christianized, they'll still be somewhat murderous won't they?
 
I could see Uzbeg being sent to an out of the way area with a stronger christian following, rather than Circassia. Say in the Hordes western expanse near Riga or the Teutonic Knights. Here he is converted by a priest.

Another way I could see conversion happening is if some enterprising monk or priest converst the bible into Mongolian script. Why or who would have done this is a different question.
 

Thande

Donor
I was thinking about this myself. What if Jochi (Genghis Khan's first son, the one who didn't get along with him due to disputed paternity) had managed to become Great Khan? He always seemed more reasonable and thoughtful than his father and might have been amenable to conversion to Christianity. While the way the Mongols worked means his men wouldn't immediately follow, it might lead to a domino effect similar to Constantine years before. Also, there's a realpoliticky aspect - Mongols might convert precisely to use it as a weapon against the Muslim enemies who were often their most bitter (e.g. the Khwarzim Shah).
 
I was thinking about this myself. What if Jochi (Genghis Khan's first son, the one who didn't get along with him due to disputed paternity) had managed to become Great Khan? He always seemed more reasonable and thoughtful than his father and might have been amenable to conversion to Christianity.

I don't see how being more reasonable and thoughtful means he'd be more amenable to conversion.

I mean, the Mongols ruled a mix of populations; some Nestorian Christian, but tons of Buddhists and Muslims, shamanistic Mongols, and the Chinese melange. Why choose Christianity?
 
I like the idea of Catholic Tartars, mostly because it likely mean more positive relations with Poland, with all that entails for the relationships with the Russians and Cossacks. The Poles might use an alliance with the Tartars in order to keep a strangehold on the Ukraine, while being all "hey, do all your slaving in the Orthodox areas, that's fine".
 
İf Golden Horde Empire become cristian
They are lost souls and and never created large empire
I think them become arrianist cristian
 
I think them become arrianist cristian

Why?

It's hard to imagine that particular sect having much impact. The Nestorians were very active in the East, the Orthodox were very well-established in the West and frankly quite impressive with all their bling. Who is Arian in the 13th century? Unless you mean a Mongol-specific Arian-like branch?
 
If they become Christian, they'll probably be Nestorian. Or Orthodox, if they pick it up from the Slavs. Catholic seems a great deal less likely to me.
 
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