A child of Philip and Mary becomes heir to Spain

So, let's assume that Philip II of Spain and Mary I of England have two children, a daughter named Catherine and a son named Philip born in 1555 and 1556 respectively.

Let's then say that Don Carlos, Philip II's first born son dies as otl in 1568, Philip's son by Mary is now heir apparent to the Spanish throne.

What happens next? Does Philip look to remarry, should Mary die, and try to name his son or child by his third wife his new heir in Spain?

If not, how do England and Spain handle the potential for a personal union?
 
Does Mary die on schedule/is she dead by 1568?

If so, isn't it possible that there's a regency council composed of English lords who don't want to have anything to do with Philip or Spain?
 
Does Mary die on schedule/is she dead by 1568?

If so, isn't it possible that there's a regency council composed of English lords who don't want to have anything to do with Philip or Spain?

Aye, if she is dead by 1568, I can see there being a regency council for her son. Would they try and put pressure on Philip to remarry? Or would he be looking for that anyway
 
Does Mary die on schedule/is she dead by 1568?

If so, isn't it possible that there's a regency council composed of English lords who don't want to have anything to do with Philip or Spain?

If she isn't dead by 1568, then perhaps Philip is stuck?
 
Aye, if she is dead by 1568, I can see there being a regency council for her son. Would they try and put pressure on Philip to remarry? Or would he be looking for that anyway

There might also be pressure from Spain- they mightn't like the idea of a king who has been raised in England, under a regency of English lords, and educated by Englishmen. If Philip is locked out of England/Philip jnr's childhood and education he mightn't particularly like the kid as his heir either.

What's the succession law like in Spain at this point (or the constituent parts of Spain- don't the Aragonese have a history of being difficult?)? How easy would it be to bypass Philip Jnr in favour of a younger son?

If she isn't dead by 1568, then perhaps Philip is stuck?

Essentially. Though he does have a decade on Mary- so he can hold out hope of her predeceasing him and then getting an heir by a third marriage, but in the interim...
 
There might also be pressure from Spain- they mightn't like the idea of a king who has been raised in England, under a regency of English lords, and educated by Englishmen. If Philip is locked out of England/Philip jnr's childhood and education he mightn't particularly like the kid as his heir either.

What's the succession law like in Spain at this point (or the constituent parts of Spain- don't the Aragonese have a history of being difficult?)? How easy would it be to bypass Philip Jnr in favour of a younger son?



Essentially. Though he does have a decade on Mary- so he can hold out hope of her predeceasing him and then getting an heir by a third marriage, but in the interim...

From what I remember, Castile had succession for either sons or if there were no sons, then daughters inherited then uncles, then aunts. As for Aragon I believe it could transfer through the female line, hence how Charles V got the throne. There's also something about alien clauses, I think in both realms. So, perhaps Philip could use that, and give the crown to either his daughter by Mary, or another son by a third wife.
 
From what I remember, Castile had succession for either sons or if there were no sons, then daughters inherited then uncles, then aunts. As for Aragon I believe it could transfer through the female line, hence how Charles V got the throne. There's also something about alien clauses, I think in both realms. So, perhaps Philip could use that, and give the crown to either his daughter by Mary, or another son by a third wife.

I get the feeling that any attempt to bypass a legitimate son in favour of a daughter will get messy. Would Philip even try, given 16th century perceptions of women and their (in)ability to rule? Though I suppose if the daughter is married to someone 'safe' that might make it more palatable (how inevitable is a marriage to an Austrian cousin? These are the Habsburgs we're talking about. Would Philip prefer an Austrian son-in-law to an English son?).

A daughter by Mary might also be considered too English, unless she's been whisked away to Spain at some point in her youth.
 
I get the feeling that any attempt to bypass a legitimate son in favour of a daughter will get messy. Would Philip even try, given 16th century perceptions of women and their (in)ability to rule? Though I suppose if the daughter is married to someone 'safe' that might make it more palatable (how inevitable is a marriage to an Austrian cousin? These are the Habsburgs we're talking about. Would Philip prefer an Austrian son-in-law to an English son?).

A daughter by Mary might also be considered too English, unless she's been whisked away to Spain at some point in her youth.

Hmm, this is true, I reckon if he's going for the daughter, Philip would consider marrying her to an Austrian cousin, just to be secure.
 
Of course, if Mary dies on schedule, and Philip remarries, then names his son by that third wife as his heir to Spain, would his son by Mary feel cheated?
 
Of course, if Mary dies on schedule, and Philip remarries, then names his son by that third wife as his heir to Spain, would his son by Mary feel cheated?

Quite possibly. I think it's probably a matter of damned if you do, damned if you don't- Philip Jnr either inherits everything (England, Spain, possibly Portugal if its royal family still goes down the drain? A revolt in the Netherlands?) and gets a severe headache trying to hold it all together, or he's absolutely furious that he only gets England whilst his upstart kid brother gets Spain and its massive empire.
 
Quite possibly. I think it's probably a matter of damned if you do, damned if you don't- Philip Jnr either inherits everything (England, Spain, possibly Portugal? A revolt in the Netherlands?) and gets a severe headache trying to hold it all together, or he's absolutely furious that he only gets England whilst his upstart kid brother gets Spain and its massive empire.

This is very true, wouldn't the kid also get the Netherlands, due to the marriage contract that was signed?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rebellion in Spain to replace their son with a son from a later marriage by Philip post Philip's death. Not to detract from things, but would it rise to war? Per Philip and Mary's marriage contract their kids were to be heirs to the Netherlands so now we have an Anglo-Dutch Union a lot earlier. Will Philip renege on the deal? Who does France support ?. Or would there be a compromise that their daughter be the heir there and she marries an Austrian cousin.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rebellion in Spain to replace their son with a son from a later marriage by Philip post Philip's death. Not to detract from things, but would it rise to war? Per Philip and Mary's marriage contract their kids were to be heirs to the Netherlands so now we have an Anglo-Dutch Union a lot earlier. Will Philip renege on the deal? Who does France support ?. Or would there be a compromise that their daughter be the heir there and she marries an Austrian cousin.

Hmm, I can see Philip himself trying to get another son as soon as possible, once Mary herself is dead. And then potentially getting the Cortes to recognise that kid as his heir in Spain and the empire. I can see France supporting the third marriage, if Philip marries Elisabeth de Valois as otl.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rebellion in Spain to replace their son with a son from a later marriage by Philip post Philip's death. Not to detract from things, but would it rise to war? Per Philip and Mary's marriage contract their kids were to be heirs to the Netherlands so now we have an Anglo-Dutch Union a lot earlier. Will Philip renege on the deal? Who does France support ?. Or would there be a compromise that their daughter be the heir there and she marries an Austrian cousin.

And to what extent the Dutch Revolt factors into all of this.
 
And to what extent the Dutch Revolt factors into all of this.

Would there still be a Dutch revolt? I suppose given Philip's personality and the actions he took otl, the dutch revolt seems likely, though perhaps with the English soon to be ruling it, things could change?
 
Would there still be a Dutch revolt? I suppose given Philip's personality and the actions he took otl, the dutch revolt seems likely, though perhaps with the English soon to be ruling it, things could change?

Yeah, I think with Philip still in charge something is likely to happen.

The English mightn't look like a better option to the Dutch, depending on the personality and religious policy of Philip Jnr (or his regency). He's presumably Catholic, but it depends how heavy-handed he is about it.

Re: the French. Wouldn't they be having PTSD-induced Charles V flashbacks at the prospect of a single Habsburg controlling England, Spain, and the Netherlands? That looks awfully close to encirclement- so they'd probably want to keep Spain and England separate, and try to foster intra-Habsburg conflict between Philip's kids.
 
Yeah, I think with Philip still in charge something is likely to happen.

The English mightn't look like a better option to the Dutch, depending on the personality and religious policy of Philip Jnr (or his regency). He's presumably Catholic, but it depends how heavy-handed he is about it.

Re: the French. Wouldn't they be having PTSD-induced Charles V flashbacks at the prospect of a single Habsburg controlling England, Spain, and the Netherlands? That looks awfully close to encirclement- so they'd probably want to keep Spain and England separate, and try to foster intra-Habsburg conflict between Philip's kids.

Hmm this is true, in regards to Philip Junior. Regency, I think they'd look to develop close ties with the Dutch, as they've just gotten a huge trade boost with that personal union, something that is going to make the French shit themselves.

As for the French, I agree they'd be having PTSD about this, which could mean they'd definitely offer Elisabeth as a bridge for Philip at some point or another, and then back her kids.
 

Md139115

Banned
Keep in mind what this entails. The Netherlands, England, Spain, and Portugal in personal union. That’s potential for the Atlantic becoming a giant lake, governed by a navy that could defeat the rest of the world combined, and with the Americas under their exclusive access and control. To a certain class of admirals and merchants, this is the ultimate wet dream...
 
Keep in mind what this entails. The Netherlands, England, Spain, and Portugal in personal union. That’s potential for the Atlantic becoming a giant lake, governed by a navy that could defeat the rest of the world combined, and with the Americas under their exclusive access and control. To a certain class of admirals and merchants, this is the ultimate wet dream...
Would it be allowed to happen thougH?
 
Might the Dutch rebels depose Philip in favour of Philip jnr? I honestly don't doubt that parliament would assign regents that are protestant leaning (they can hide behind not wanting foreign influence over their king to remove anyone Philip might send to watch over his son) and the rebels in the Netherlands might try to hide behind the marriage contract.
 
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