A Change of Heart - A Byzantine Resurgence

tuareg109

Banned
I agree with the first paragraph, but I'd rather blame the overwhelming decadence of the Empire, somewhat enlarged by weak emperors. If the state and the society was healthy and ready for sacrifices, we wouldn't witness the crumble and division after the Crusaders attack.

Hmmm, can you give some examples of what you think of this? I'm more apt to think that the decadence and weakness in a society is a symptom of its governance; the marauding governors, large landowners/small lords engaging in private wars left and right, barbarians--and often heathen at that!--invading lands unopposed, will all serve to increase apathy and a wish to escape from problems. Why serve in the army, or pay taxes, or work for your nation when there's no benefit from that? By the time of the Fourth Crusade, and especially after the Reconquest of Constantinople, pretty much the only glue holding the "Empire" together was the Orthodox Church.
 
So why are you on this thread then?
I echo this statement. The Romans were known for, among other things, their professional military, massive empire, detailed and effective law codes, contributions to architecture, sanitation, philosophy, and providing the political, cultural, and linguistic background for western europe in the middle ages. Yes, they were also known for their negative impact on the environment, including gladiatorial contests which were cruel to man and beast alike, having slavery as a major driving force of the economy, political intrigue, and for political cheuvanism. They were not known for misogyny, even if they would be considered misogynistic by modern standards, because relative to the world at the time, they weren't.

Byzantium inherits Rome's reputation, but they cut out the slave driven economy, gladitatorial contests, and general environmental hazard parts, and add their reputation for longevity as a state, use of realpolitic in an era of fanatacism, and preservation of knowledge from antiquity. It may not make everyone like it, but it is definitely enough to explain the large fan following.

@Tubendo, interesting start. I'll be sure to check in again soon. What was the effect of the Fourth Crusade overall? Even if Constantinople wasn't taken there is still considerable damage to the empire, and there is also the matter of the Pope and how this affects him, and whether the remnant of the crusade is forgiven or sent on to the Holy Land or what have you.
 

tuareg109

Banned
?

Byzantium replaced a slave-driven economy for a serf-driven one, which is almost the same; at least, with serfs, the lord doesn't have to feed or clothe them at all.

They were also known for losing large tracts of land at a time, which is probably more important than the longevity of a state that quickly became centered on a few fortress-cities and trade instead of arable land and natural resources.

And last of all: Realpolitik? Really? This being said of the people that wouldn't convert to the same religion, with a few tiny differences, in order to secure maximum Western support? And the people who slit throats and caused civil wars over the issue of Iconoclasm? That doesn't sound like Realpolitik to me.
 
?

Byzantium replaced a slave-driven economy for a serf-driven one, which is almost the same;
Source please.
They were also known for losing large tracts of land at a time, which is probably more important than the longevity of a state that quickly became centered on a few fortress-cities and trade instead of arable land and natural resources.
Let's avoid opinions and focus on facts. The loss of Egypt and Syria, did not finish the Empire. It managed to survive their loss for and additional 800 years. Longer than some other countries have been around.

IMO, probably a better proof of the soundness of their institutions, rather than relying on its "natural resources," as banana republic would.
And last of all: Realpolitik? Really? This being said of the people that wouldn't convert to the same religion, with a few tiny differences, in order to secure maximum Western support? And the people who slit throats and caused civil wars over the issue of Iconoclasm? That doesn't sound like Realpolitik to me.
When the definition of God himself is at stake, there are hardly tiny differences. And last time I checked, Iconoclasm hardly affected diplomatic relations, or the lack of, with the Arabs and Bulgars. The West, considered a backwater, was ignored, and there weren't any throats slit.

It's understandable that such debates are to us now perhaps ridiculous, but do not make the mistake of transposing your values, and imposing them on people who have been dead for generations.
 
?

Byzantium replaced a slave-driven economy for a serf-driven one, which is almost the same; at least, with serfs, the lord doesn't have to feed or clothe them at all.

They were also known for losing large tracts of land at a time, which is probably more important than the longevity of a state that quickly became centered on a few fortress-cities and trade instead of arable land and natural resources.

And last of all: Realpolitik? Really? This being said of the people that wouldn't convert to the same religion, with a few tiny differences, in order to secure maximum Western support? And the people who slit throats and caused civil wars over the issue of Iconoclasm? That doesn't sound like Realpolitik to me.

Serfdom is a blatant lie, please try again after looking it up.

Relative to their neighbors and rivals, Byzantium did excellent with regard to lands lost and recovered. The Western Roman Empire, Sassanid Empire, several incarnations of the Caliphate, the Avars, the Bulgarians, the Kievan Rus, and the Seljuks all predeceased them. Comparatively, Byzantium was quite strong and stable, so they weren't really known for losing land.

You picked two incidents, drastically oversimplified them, and then claimed that they speak for the entire history of the empire. The first was not just a religious, but also, really primarily, a political debate, and whether it would have secured any western aid is an open question. Also note that they did establish church union, twice. It ended when it failed to produce results. Sounds like realpolitic to me. Iconoclasm wasn't near so bloody as you are making it out to be, and the state funded violence in particular paled in comparison to anything around at the time. Don't know what civil wars you're talking about though. Pretty sure you're making stuff up at this point.
 
Authors Note
Thanks to some for their support to my TL, but can you guys stop arguing about serfdom and slavery. It's not an agreement thread. It's a timeline. Also I'm trying my best to not do a Byzantine wank. I want the empire to somewhat survive and eventually kill off Islam in Anatolia.


May 2nd, 1236
Finally the days of Turkish domination of Anatolia are over. Just yesterday, the Sultan of the Seljuks surrendered to Emperor Iōannēs in exchange for vassalisation. The world of the Romans are growing. Even the puny states in Armenia have fallen to Iōannēs will. The Emperor also immortalised this war by starting the construction a monument in Ankara commemorating all the soldiers whom died in the long grueling war against the Turks. I was just a young recruit in 1227 when the newly throned emperor order a grand scale invasion of the Sultanate. I have risen to become a Dekarchos of a Kontoubernion. I have a reputation as the best of the "Nicaean Recruits" from the early periods of the Second Anatolian War. I now own a fair sized property in Nicaea and have marriage with my Strategos' family, which will give my sons a good chance in life once I have past.

I have now returned to my home in Nicaea, finding my loving family there to see me. My son is already 7 and I barely see him. I have a present for him from the war. A Turkish blade as a decoration for home. He is very excited to see me. It's been 6 months, and I hope to be able to find a way to forgive my wife for leaving her for too long.

Map of the World in 1236
4VEh5YV.png


OOC: Since 1204, some major events that have occurred are:
  • Theodore Laskaris has died and his second son, Iōannēs has succeeded him, whom lived longer and started the Second Anatolian War and pretty much became an equivalent of Timur in our OTL.
  • The Ghurids domains has split in two, the west, a Islamic cultured society and the east, a Hindu cultured society.
  • A 5th Crusade again implored by Pope Innocent was much more successful because of the failures of the 4th envisaged the Holy Roman Emperor to personally help on the Crusade. English help threw-out the Crusade was minor but have effects as the tensions and vassalage problems with France were finally solved.
  • The Bulgars lose territory to the Byzantines, while gaining territories north of the Danube delta.
  • The Ayyubids, flawing from the 5th Crusade, impower Yemen to invade the Red Sea coast. But Yemen's armies are occupied in the north, the Ethiopians invade and conquer Yemen's territories in the Horn of Africa.
  • The Japanese Shogun conquers the remaining territories in Honshu.
  • The Norwegians and Swedish settle territories once controlled by the Sames after internal wars within their tribes weakens their control.
  • The Banu Ghaniya invade Almohad North Africa which came as a surprise and have to surrender most of their territories in Orania and in Constantine.
 
Last edited:
Authors Note
Sorry for not posting in ages. I've been obsessed with other things (that do relate to Alternate History, and the Byzantines). Hope you like this new post, and why hasn't anyone replied since my last post?


August 25th, 1254
At once I thought that this would never happen. But it did. My highly acknowledged father, the Doux of Armenia Major, decided appoint me as his successor, instead of my blatant drunk elder brother, Konstatinius. I have lately been visiting the courts of nobles, most importantly, the Emperor himself. I have been working by way threw him, trying to get a title in the newly succeeded territories of Eastern Anatolia.

Yes, only a few months ago, the Turkish Sultan of "Rum" was the leader of a rebellion against the Emperor, as he had forced his father to become a vassal of the great and powerful Roman Empire. But his life was cut short at the battle of Ankyra, the place where his father had regrettably signed himself to Emperor Iōannēs the Great. I have decided to ask the Emperor personally if I could lead an invasion of the former territory of Cyprus, lost to the traitorous English king, Richard Lionheart many years ago, in the time of Angeloi...

Map of the World in 1254
eKKk5Rt.png

OOC: Since 1236, some major events that have occurred are:
  • The Byzantines have invaded and taken Armenia Minor and Syria.
  • The Seljuk Turks have been subjugated and processing in banishment after a rebellion from the angered vassal Sultan.
  • Genghis Khans son, Ogedei has risen up to his fathers throne (Genghis Khan in this timeline didn't manage to defeat his neighbouring tribes but developed the Mongolian military very much) and has invaded Western Xia and the Turkic states to the east of his domains.
  • Sicily became independent from the HRE.
  • The Duke of Cracow invades northern Poland, allowing Kurstin (Eastern Poland) to become vassals of their new de facto liege.
  • The Swedes and Norwegians continue to subjugate the Finns and Sames
  • The Swedish make incursions into Estonia, conquering the pagan states that remain there.
  • The Teutonic Order takes Prussia and with the help of their liege, the Holy Roman Emperor, start to invade Kurland.
  • The Byzantines invade Muslim states in former Armenia and start to create and give away new titles to the large and powerful strategos.
  • The Castilians and Portuguese invade the Almohads, the Castilians making the most gains in south-east Iberia.
  • The Khawarizmi invade the West Ghurids, being fairly successful.
  • The southern Indian states start to dominate over eachother, mainly the Chola and the East Ghurids.
  • The King of Cumania has converted to Orthodoxy (Now making him on the map) after pressures from the Byzantine Emperor who hopes for an alliance to obliterate the Turkish peoples.
  • The Bulgarians, continuously losing territories to the ever powerful Byzantines, decide to invade Rhomania, or commonly known in the classical era as Dacia.
 
Last edited:
Not every. There were a few more matriarchal societies in Europe back then.

There is no evidence of any matriarchal society in Europe, or even in the whole world.

There are societies where woman enjoyed more status, rights, and powers than in Rome. There is plenty of evidence of matrilineal socities and matrilocal households. But matriarchy? Never. The only "evidence" that exists is very dubious statements by people of far away peoples they never met, or very dubious interpretations of archaeological finds and mythology.
 
The Greeks and Romans get way too much credit for what was just as much created by the Germans, the French, and the English.

On an off topic, but my good sir, the Romans created the TOILET. That's right! The West could make all their nuclear bombs and all, but they still used poo buckets when Hiroshima happened. POO BUCKETS!!! This proves that the Romans were the true forefathers of sanitation. ROME IS AWESOME!!!
 
Poland's dynastic symbol in this timeline will be both the Golden Eagle on Blue and White Eagle on red since it is the Opole Piasts who are ruling Poland now...It seems that Mieszko Tanglefoot's sons are ruling Poland in this TL..
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 67076

Ok, the empire seems to be advancing, way, way too fast. How in 50 years did they reverse the miss-management of the Angeloi, form a decent army (and get the funding to support said army) and conquer the entirety of Anatolia?

Second, I can't see Yemen beating Egypt in a fight. There's no way that they can wrest the Hedjaz from Egypt.

As well, how could the Mongols developing their military machine but not defeat the other tribes. That military and organization made them utterly unbeatable. Even if Genghis dies for some reason, there are a number of other competent generals that would have taken over and one what he did.
 
Top