A Central East

Franz Joseph would NEVER give Istria and Trieste to Italians.
That's the reason why Italians abandoned Triple Alliance.

Maybe some small teritorial concessions in South Tyrol and Gorica, but I'm not sure about that either.
;)
He *didn't* give Trieste to the Italians - my intention was that the border was adjusted in the Italians' favour, but not to the point of actually giving them Trieste. That is, it should have been 'Küstenland border areas'. I'm not sure how you got 'giving them Istria', however, since I explicitly wrote Istrian border areas - in other words, implicitly not all of Istria.
I agree with you.
;)
Well, you're agreeing with a banned person... well, and Japan did join the Alliance.
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
I think Japan would lean towards the CP. North Sakhalin, Chinese and perhaps Russian Manchuria, French treaty ports in China and maybe Hainan are worth rather more then the German Pacific and German treaty ports. Whats more, Germany may offer the marianas to Japan in exchange for a declaration of war. Their strategy is Russia first after all, the sooner it falls the better.

I agree with you.
;)
 

abc123

Banned
He *didn't* give Trieste to the Italians - my intention was that the border was adjusted in the Italians' favour, but not to the point of actually giving them Trieste. That is, it should have been 'Küstenland border areas'. I'm not sure how you got 'giving them Istria', however, since I explicitly wrote Istrian border areas - in other words, implicitly not all of Istria.

This is Istra.
How do you mean that Franz Joseph can offer to Italians border areas of Istra if he dont give them Trieste too?:confused:

Istria.png
 
This is Istra.
How do you mean that Franz Joseph can offer to Italians border areas of Istra if he dont give them Trieste too?:confused:
I must have read something wrong when I first wrote that; that's what I meant with that it should have been Küstenland, not Istria... though apparently the definition of Istria was somewhat different (and larger) then. Still, certainly something to keep in mind if I ever make a Mk. 2... then again, if I tried to rewrite this for plausibility I might well end up having to throw out almost the entire TL.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
Why are the Japanese so focused on Russia? After North Shakalin and Vladivostock i'd consider French Indochina a much more valuable prize, than Siberia.

Well, North Sakhalin and Vladivostok is fine, but Amurski and Primorski krai are better. And with all the mines and arable land in Manchuria...

But Hainan would be a wery nice thing to have.
French Indochina- too much problems for too little gain. Too densley populated.
 

abc123

Banned
I must have read something wrong when I first wrote that; that's what I meant with that it should have been Küstenland, not Istria... though apparently the definition of Istria was somewhat different (and larger) then. Still, certainly something to keep in mind if I ever make a Mk. 2... then again, if I tried to rewrite this for plausibility I might well end up having to throw out almost the entire TL.:rolleyes:

Look, it's OK, but definition of Istra is the same today and then. Looking from Italy- Istra begins just before Trieste.
 
This is Istra.
How do you mean that Franz Joseph can offer to Italians border areas of Istra if he dont give them Trieste too?:confused:

He could give them an exclave. All ITalian populated western coastal regions of Istria - besides Triest. IOTL, Italy got an exclave on the opposite shores as well. And Venetian-Austrian frontiers in Istria were even worse.
 
Look, it's OK, but definition of Istra is the same today and then. Looking from Italy- Istra begins just before Trieste.
I know - the definition was apparently larger according to a source of some unreliability, but not so much that included Trieste. Thus, Küstenland if I ever re-write it.
Well, North Sakhalin and Vladivostok is fine, but Amurski and Primorski krai are better. And with all the mines and arable land in Manchuria...

But Hainan would be a wery nice thing to have.
French Indochina- too much problems for too little gain. Too densley populated.
Well... the Japanese aren't the only ones to have interests in southern China and Indo-China.;)
He could give them an exclave. All ITalian populated western coastal regions of Istria - besides Triest. IOTL, Italy got an exclave on the opposite shores as well. And Venetian-Austrian frontiers in Istria were even worse.
Erm, a bit more ambitious than I intended, and almost surely more ambitious than the Habsburgs would be willing to concede (even border adjustments in Gorizia and Gradisca is a big stretch as it is).

In other news...
 
Trotsky's Final Triumph, 1920-1925

''Russia’s socialist experiment is something to watch, but whether as a warning, or an example, remains to be seen.''
- Rosa Luxembourg, 1921.

Russia after the Civil War was in a somewhat peculiar state. The coalition of leftist elements that had united to defeat the Whites was not the most united group, nor, in truth, the best base to build a (provisional may it be) government on. Temporary freedom-infringing measures had been enacted during the Civil War, and there were debates on how quickly they should be rescinded- while the White armies were gone, there were still the risk of assassinations and terrorist attacks aimed at undermining the Socialist consensus and bringing about a counter-revolution. At least, that was the argument of the Radical faction, ‘led’ by the now war-hero Vladimir Ulyanov, commonly known as Lenin, and his Bolsheviks. Then there was the franchise in the elections to the Constituent Assembly issue (to not talk of the actual disagreements over how the Constitution would be), the question of when the Constituent Assembly elections would be scheduled, how active the provisional government should be in enacting a Socialist Russia...
That peace had to be maintained with Germany (for now) was, at least, something that could be agreed upon, as was supporting the United Provinces of China (the level and nature of support, naturally, were not quite so easy a matter to agree upon [1]).

Sadly, the government’s problems in agreeing upon things exacerbated the Federation’s already unstable situation, and with crime sweeping the nation, the government’s control outside the cities somewhat spotty and foreign trade almost non-existent, it was becoming increasingly clear that something had to be done, and that something would most likely have to be something radical [2]. It was with that in mind that Alexander Kerensky, Provisional President of the Russian Socialist Federation, arranged for an informal meeting in Petrograd with Lenin on the fifth of October, 1920. Exactly what was discussed on that day is impossible to know for certain, for during a promenade in the Park, a White-sympathiser shot at the two, killing Kerensky and harming Lenin.

Kerensky’s replacement as President was Boris Mikhailovich, a Socialist-Revolutionary on the right side of the party that had risen to some prominence during the Civil War, and after the establishment of the RSF had done an acceptable job as Mayor of Moscow. Unfortunately, the new President quickly cracked under the pressure of the job, taking to drinking heavily and spending more time helping out his friends and cronies than actually doing his job- and still there were no Constituent Assembly in sight. The Radicals in general, and the Bolsheviks in particular, using Lenin’s status as a semi-martyr, the fact that he had been the last man to speak to Kerensky and the government’s increasing corruption to advance their positions, quickly grew in popularity and power, and by August 1922, they were ready to move. A quick coup, led by General Tukhachevsky, arrested President Mikhailovich, his closest confidantes and high-ranking right-wing SRs, and declared Vladimir Ulyanov the new President. Using the threat of White counter-revolution as a reason, the new government, consisting solely of Radicals, cracked down upon dissent, political enemies and crime, and used the Army to bring recalcitrant provincial governors in line. The crack-down did bring order, which helped strengthen the new government’s position, but perhaps more importantly, it ensured that a counter-coup would be hard to pull off. Naturally, not every general and bureaucrat with suspect allegiances could be arrested, but the number of Russian advisors in the United Provinces grew quickly in the months after the coup.

Elections for a Constituent Assembly were quickly scheduled, and although the elections were hardly fair, marred by threats, governmental meddling, a franchise designed to exclude important (but unfriendly to the government) groups, and direct fraud, the constitution it produced were used to legitimise the new, Soviet-based, Radical regime. As order returned to Russia, so did trade with foreign countries [3], and with the measure of restored prosperity that brought, Lenin’s position seemed more secure than ever. The Radical parties were amalgamated into a new Communist Party of Russia, with the first Party Congress in May 1923, and remaining opponents of Lenin’s agenda were sidelined.

Then Lenin had a stroke, shortly before the Party Congress of 1924. Various factions attempted to position themselves to take the lead in Lenin’s absence, with Stalin and Trotsky being two of the more prominent leaders (and certainly two of the fiercest rivals), and factionalism seemed ready to, once again, tear down the gains that had been made. Lenin had written a ‘testament’ of sorts, formulating his criticisms of various prominent Party officials, but critical of almost everyone of import as it was, it was kept from coming to light during the Congress. The Congress ended with no clear leader emerging, but in July, Russian history again turned on an assassin’s weapon (although this time it was a dagger), for Trotsky was killed by a man professing himself to be a loyal follower of Stalin. Although there was no evidence of Stalin ordering the murder, and in fact indications that he was innocent [4], Stalin, apparently fearing for his life if he stayed, left the Federation, which of course his rivals used to pin the blame on the murder on Stalin. That Lenin’s testament happened to warn of the possible consequences of Trotsky’s and Stalin’s rivalry likely helped; though it had not been read at the Congress, its contents were still known by those factional leaders that had made certain it was not read at the Congress.
Trotsky, by his death, had had a final triumph, with his main rival in life reduced from a contender to leadership of the RSF to an exile travelling the world in search for a safe haven for a communist and enemy of the premier communist regime in the world.

Naturally, it did not take long after Trotsky’s murder and Stalin’s flight for the power struggle to start again. It was, after all, something of a struggle against time - once Lenin actually died, the pressure to find a new leader would intensify.

By December, one faction had achieved dominance: a relatively moderate, right-wing [5] faction led by a troika of Alexei Rykov, Nicolai Bukharin, and Mikhail Tomsky, and supported by Mikhail Tukhachevsky. When Lenin died in February 1925, Rykov replaced him as President, while Bukharin took over as Party Chairman (the position closest to an official Party Leader). So established, Tomsky was easily made Premier, while Tukhachevsky was rewarded for his support by being made Marshal of the Federation, a newly established position making him the highest ranking military official of the RSF.

The question on people’s mind was, naturally, how long the troika could survive, and what would happen when it fell apart, but for now, some measure of stability had been achieved, and the survival of the Russian Socialist Federation could be said to have been secured.

[1] Peculiarly, sending Tsarist officers who, for one reason or the other, had not joined one of the breakaway states, or joined the émigrés, yet still could be suspected of White sympathies, to help organise and train the Army of the United Provinces proved to be quite acceptable to almost everyone.
[2] Although not necessarily something Radical.
[3] Russia might have been a radical socialist country with a President that rose to power in a coup, but it was still a fairly large market.
[4] For one thing, he would hardly be so stupid as to not take efforts to ensure blame would not fall upon him if he actually did arrange the murder of a rival.
[5] In the context of the Communist Party of Russia, that is.
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
He could give them an exclave. All ITalian populated western coastal regions of Istria - besides Triest. IOTL, Italy got an exclave on the opposite shores as well. And Venetian-Austrian frontiers in Istria were even worse.

This is a matter of honor.
Austro- Hungary is not some upstart like Kingdom of SHS that Italy can bully it, or some semi-colony like China that she can allow Hong-Kong-type solutions.;)
 
This is a matter of honor.
Austro- Hungary is not some upstart like Kingdom of SHS that Italy can bully it, or some semi-colony like China that she can allow Hong-Kong-type solutions.;)
Well, as I noted, if I ever rewrite it, the word 'Istria' will not be mentioned, as that part of the Austrian Littoral will not be shifted at all.;)
 

abc123

Banned
Well... the Japanese aren't the only ones to have interests in southern China and Indo-China.;)

That's right.
So, why not to occupy Hainan while French and Chinese are in conflict over Guandong and Indochina?
Or to help French against China, to gain Manchuria or Hainan?
Or a base in Cam Ranh Bay for IJN?
....
 
That's right.
So, why not to occupy Hainan while French and Chinese are in conflict over Guandong and Indochina?
Or to help French against China, to gain Manchuria or Hainan?
Or a base in Cam Ranh Bay for IJN?
....
In order: The Chinese give less priority to Indochina than to Hainan (much less, as a matter of fact), and as it so happens, Hainan was not a concession.
The Japanese declared war on Russia (and therefore France) before China did so. Russia is the more immediate threat, and also the more potentially fruitful area to expand into.
That would presume that the Japanese were successful enough to gain that, or that the Germans - or anyone else, for that matter - would be very keen on them gaining a base there, doesn't it?
 
Bukharin as Premier (which I assume is the real power base in the country) will be interesting, I would assume that his economic policies would be along the lines out OTL's NEP, albeit with more of an ideological rather than pragmatic focus. Politically, he will obviously be no democrat, but I think that a Bukarin-run Russia will be a somewhat less repressive place than it was under Stalin.
 
Bukharin as Premier (which I assume is the real power base in the country) will be interesting, I would assume that his economic policies would be along the lines out OTL's NEP, albeit with more of an ideological rather than pragmatic focus. Politically, he will obviously be no democrat, but I think that a Bukarin-run Russia will be a somewhat less repressive place than it was under Stalin.
Erm, Tomsky is Premier. Bukharin is the leader of the Party;).
The President is a fairly important role, although it does have its deficits when building up a power-base inside the country....
That the economic policies will be more along NEP-lines than Stalinite Five Year Plans are rather likely, as is the RSF being a somewhat less repressive place than it was under Stalin. If nothing else, the CPR is more of a broad-tent than the Russian Communist Party (bolsheviks) were, so anyone seeking to purge the dissidents and become undisputed leader of the Federation have an harder time ahead of him than Stalin had.
 
Erm, Tomsky is Premier. Bukharin is the leader of the Party;).
The President is a fairly important role, although it does have its deficits when building up a power-base inside the country....
That the economic policies will be more along NEP-lines than Stalinite Five Year Plans are rather likely, as is the RSF being a somewhat less repressive place than it was under Stalin. If nothing else, the CPR is more of a broad-tent than the Russian Communist Party (bolsheviks) were, so anyone seeking to purge the dissidents and become undisputed leader of the Federation have an harder time ahead of him than Stalin had.

Gah! That is rather embarrassing, my own silly mistake.

:eek:

The idea of a less power-centralised Communist Russia is a rather curious one, I know that the interregnum in OTL was fairly similar, but it was a very Byzantine affair, I would think that the situation here is somewhat comradelier? I guess that having a broad-left party is going to be much harder to gain a personal dictatorship in.
 
The idea of a less power-centralised Communist Russia is a rather curious one, I know that the interregnum in OTL was fairly similar, but it was a very Byzantine affair, I would think that the situation here is somewhat comradelier? I guess that having a broad-left party is going to be much harder to gain a personal dictatorship in.
Somewhat, at least - so long as the troika holds, anyway (the idea of the troika is that they all get their own fields to be powerful in without anyone being dominant over the others, so Rykov holds the reins in foreign affairs and is the main face of the government, Tomsky controls the executive and the unions, and Bukharin is the ideologue and the controller of the Party - a difference between the USSR and the RSF is that there is more of a separation between the State and the Party here, as an artifact of the RSF's start as a multi-party endeavour).
 

abc123

Banned
so Rykov holds the reins in foreign affairs and is the main face of the government, Tomsky controls the executive and the unions, and Bukharin is the ideologue and the controller of the Party QUOTE]

Well, evreything and evreyone is better for Russia than Stalin.
;)
 
Interesting, so does that mean some kind of NEP style policy will be implimented; if so Russia's recovery could actually be relatively quick.

Keep it going :)
 
Top