A Carribean Civilization to encounter

^ Actually, the Spanish came as explorers... they will surely seize any land that they consider vacant and interesting enough, but there is no reason why there is no possibility they will generally start with trade first with the people of the region. Maybe there will occur something like what happened IOTL Banten when the Dutch first visiting, but that was only in one single country. The Dutch would eventually fared vary from places to places in East Indies, and just because the Spanish are usually typically known to be less pragmatic, that will be only far from killing any possibility of the Spanish playing nice to several certain parties at least for a while.

I never posited that the Caribbeans will strike a Spanish ship and take it or anything like that, btw. But if Columbus or anyone who'd take his role doesn't return to Spain after the first visit for whatever reason then yeah the homeland will probably just forget about them.

Even if they will eventually captured a Spanish ship, doesn't mean that the all the people in it have to be already all dead, though that's possible too. And even that among of the captured Spanish can teach them how to use it, yeah I don't see a technological transfer in this regard will just happen from this single encounter either... But I fail to see that as a reason to stop exploring and extracting possibilities from this path ;)
 
Bump!

What if, instead, Columbus never comes back? Let's suppose that his ships are lured into a trap and captured by the arawaks, while him and a great part of his men are slaughtered.
Spain could loose any more interest in sea exploration and concentrate her efforts in north africa and east mediterranian against the turks. So maybe will be the portoguese to "discover" America and colonize the caribbean...

We've had these discussions a lot before, if you want a more detailed answer. The general conclusion was that the Portugese will probably hit Brazil, and the English/Basque/Norse (take your pick) will probably explore the Grand Banks, and then slowly spread from there. Without the idea of gold and wealth in the new world, there will probably be a slower expansion.

I like this scenario. It seems to lead to a very interesting New World and the Natives get a better shot at holding the European tide.

And this path is interesting as well. Wonder if the Caribbeans will have the chance to adopt some things from the Old Worlders as well....


Frankly I'm really interested to explore this path.... how much will be the chance for the Native Americans to adopt Old Worlders' marine technology this way ? I'll presume it'll be small, but exactly how small ?

I doubt that even after they managed to adopt it, the Native Americans will be even significantly often to travel to the Old World, but frankly I think this topic is still worth discussing. :cool:
 
Have we forgotten about disease?

And the Spanish, Portuguese, Basque, English, or whomever needn't even spend time ashore exploring. New England was partially depopulated through incidental coastal contacts a generation before the Pilgrims arrived.

Columbus meets a Caribbean civilization and European diseases destroy the same.


Bill
 
Have we forgotten about disease?

And the Spanish, Portuguese, Basque, English, or whomever needn't even spend time ashore exploring. New England was partially depopulated through incidental coastal contacts a generation before the Pilgrims arrived.

Columbus meets a Caribbean civilization and European diseases destroy the same.


Bill

No we didn't. The disease will going to smack the Natives in the face for sure. Actually with the presence of wide-ranging Caribbean civilization which is in contact with many parts of the Americas will going to accelerate the spread of the Old World diseases, making the epidemic much wider, but eventually will cause earlier immunity to be developed by more native Americans in an occasion, which is an interesting consequences in its own right.

We're talking about a more coherent, unified, and wide ranging civilization that is more populous. They're going to face trouble for sure, but at worse they will going to make TTL Caribbean slightly more formidable. I'm agree that in the case where the Spanish managed to gain a foothold during their first visit, they will be conquered by the Spanish anyways, but still it will happen in a different circumstances. For one thing, what will the more populous Caribbean archipelago contribute to the economic activity of the post-Spanish conquest ? Will we see lesser need to import slaves from Africa ? And that's just one example. Slower process of the conquest will going to make a difference as well....

And had the Spanish failed, it'll be a different story. I don't see a native-wank come out of this. But if the Natives managed to have enough time to develop immunity and recover from the plague caused by Old World disease before the next friction with the Old Worlders, who know what's next.... But what's certain that the New World will be less white ITTL !

Not to mention the possibility of the New World possessing a/some nasty lethal disease(s) of its own, and what will become of the Old World once this(ese) disease(s) arrived there......
 
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No we didn't.


Ridwan,

Funny. I didn't see any mention of it.

Actually with the presence of wide-ranging Caribbean civilization which is in contact with many parts of the Americas will going to accelerate the spread of the Old World diseases, making the epidemic much wider...

Agreed.

... but eventually will cause earlier immunity to be developed by more native Americans...

Completely wrong.

Without a biological reservoir that can reinfect the population over generations, you'll build up no immunities. Smallpox was still slate wiping tribes as late as the 1850s more than 300 years after it had been introduced to the Americas. Once such epidemic began in Boston in the mid 1770s and finally burned itself out in the Pacific Northwest more than 30 years later.

We're talking about a more coherent, unified, and wide ranging civilization that is more populous. They're going to face trouble for sure, but at worse they will going to make TTL Caribbean slightly more formidable.

You're talking about a Caribbean analog to the Central American and Andean civilizations that still went under primarily due to European diseases. True, a Carib civilization will be more populous than the OTL Caribbean. That will simply provide more victims, nothing more.

Not to mention the possibility of the New World possessing a/some nasty lethal disease(s) of its own, and what will become of the Old World once this(ese) disease(s) arrived there......

Not without animal husbandry.


Bill
 
1) Without a biological reservoir that can reinfect the population over generations, you'll build up no immunities. Smallpox was still slate wiping tribes as late as the 1850s more than 300 years after it had been introduced to the Americas. Once such epidemic began in Boston in the mid 1770s and finally burned itself out in the Pacific Northwest more than 30 years later.



2) You're talking about a Caribbean analog to the Central American and Andean civilizations that still went under primarily due to European diseases. True, a Carib civilization will be more populous than the OTL Caribbean. That will simply provide more victims, nothing more.



3) Not without animal husbandry.

1) Good point.

2) I'll be frank I'm a sucker at this kind of thing. Maybe you can explain to me in detail why Old World managed to get through the Black Death ?

3) To be frank, I've been mostly imagining things with a thriving agricultural civilization in Mississipi valley that is engaged in Bison farming (yeah, I'm also influenced with that certain TL :D), in context. But even without that I think it's fair to assume that the *Caribbean trade network that's as wide as I'm suggesting will allow mobility of animals(and thus diseases) from different places. This way, you may won't get an epidemic that's as strong as the ones from New World (eventhough I still yet to get the logic on this), but a kind of a nasty piece of work I'm sure is doable.
 
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Maybe you can explain to me in detail why Old World managed to get through the Black Death ?


Ridwan,

This isn't the time or place for the types of details you apparently need. Find The Hot Zone, read it, and follow it's bibliography.

Basically, the Black Plague:

- Killed it's various hosts too quickly, thus limiting exposure rates
- Had no human-to-human transmission vector, or even rat-to-rat transmission vector for that matter, relying instead on fleas to transmit between infected hosts
- Was a mutated strain of an already prevalent disease meaning that some of those previously exposed would be resistant.
- Had climate-based propagation limits

To be frank, I've been mostly imagining things with a thriving agricultural civilization in Mississipi that is engaged in Bison farming, in context.

You aren't ranching bison without barbwire and settled agriculture.

Following herds, culling herds, and dealing with bison predators? Sure. Penning bison, feeding them during winters, controlling their reproduction? No way in hell without barbwire and lots of fodder.


Bill
 
1) Ridwan,

This isn't the time or place for the types of details you apparently need. Find The Hot Zone, read it, and follow it's bibliography.

Basically, the Black Plague:

- Killed it's various hosts too quickly, thus limiting exposure rates
- Had no human-to-human transmission vector, or even rat-to-rat transmission vector for that matter, relying instead on fleas to transmit between infected hosts
- Was a mutated strain of an already prevalent disease meaning that some of those previously exposed would be resistant.
- Had climate-based propagation limits



2) You aren't ranching bison without barbwire and settled agriculture.

Following herds, culling herds, and dealing with bison predators? Sure. Penning bison, feeding them during winters, controlling their reproduction? No way in hell without barbwire and lots of fodder.


Bill

1) Why the bolded ? :confused:

Though thanks for the source and the points.

2) It's not the integral part of this WI, but I do like to wonder had this WI coexisting with situation provided by these TLs. :)
 
What about turning the Teotihuacan civilization into a New World version of the Roman Empire? Have a very strong dynasty lasting about 500 years with a series of civil wars decimating the central government and leading to the rise of 6-10 or maybe even more successor states throughout the temperate New World. Have a decent set of roads, agriculture, and transportation there with a navy at least capable of colonizing Cuba and the other major Caribbean islands. Leave this New World to develop as they may until Columbus arrives. Maybe two states are religious, two more scientific, two more agricultural, etc. And if they are advanced enough to know the basics of public health then disease might take a reduced toll and lead to very interesting wars against the Spanish...
 
What about turning the Teotihuacan civilization into a New World version of the Roman Empire? Have a very strong dynasty lasting about 500 years with a series of civil wars decimating the central government and leading to the rise of 6-10 or maybe even more successor states throughout the temperate New World. Have a decent set of roads, agriculture, and transportation there with a navy at least capable of colonizing Cuba and the other major Caribbean islands. Leave this New World to develop as they may until Columbus arrives. Maybe two states are religious, two more scientific, two more agricultural, etc. And if they are advanced enough to know the basics of public health then disease might take a reduced toll and lead to very interesting wars against the Spanish...
No. Really, theres nothing that any American civilization could have done to prevent the diseases, other then somehow having more domesticated animals, a more varied genetic base, or an understanding of antibiotics and vaccines. All of which are extremely unlikely. The problem with the American civilizations was that they were dealing with virgin ground epidemics, and had almost no experience with disease.
 
What about turning the Teotihuacan civilization into a New World version of the Roman Empire?
Have a decent set of roads, agriculture, and transportation there
Roads aren't that much use without wheeled transport and would only make it easier for the Spanish to get into the hinderland. As for agriculture, it was efficient enough to support a city with a million people. Without a draft animal you are not going to get any improvements.
with a navy at least capable of colonizing Cuba and the other major Caribbean islands.
Why a navy? Why not just a fleet of canoes? The Polynesians colonized loads of island with the use of ships.

On a more general point, a large pre-Columbian Caribbean Amerindian population would mean that more workers after the initial ravages of disease and thus less need to transport slaves from Africa. Am not saying that there would be no slave trade, the Portuguese would ship negroes to work in Brazil and the English to southern Northern America. However, it could be delayed because the Spanish would have sufficient workers in the Caribbeans for gold mining or wharever else they want to get up to.
 
To be frank, I've been mostly imagining things with a thriving agricultural civilization in Mississipi valley that is engaged in Bison farming (yeah, I'm also influenced with that certain TL :D), in context. But even without that I think it's fair to assume that the *Caribbean trade network that's as wide as I'm suggesting will allow mobility of animals(and thus diseases) from different places. This way, you may won't get an epidemic that's as strong as the ones from New World (eventhough I still yet to get the logic on this), but a kind of a nasty piece of work I'm sure is doable.

Hehe, the bison farming has been retconned out anyway! So the Sweataches I've ruled out as too unlikely, but there will be something else nasty waiting.

BTW, this thread is very useful to me, all sides of the argument. Keep it up :D
 
I bolded it, because I want to know your reason for saying that.... Sorry for not saying it clear enough.....


Ridwan,

No need to apologize at all. I was the one who failed to understand your question and your question is a rather obvious one in hindsight. :eek:

What I was trying - and failing - to explain was that you need to understand how "virgin field" epidemics work in order for your timeline to work. I was also trying - and failing - to explain that it's too involved a topic for me to attempt to explain here, even if I could manage to explain it well enough.

Any deep or substantial explanation would require much more than a few paragraphs and you'd need to a deep or substantial explanation to fully understand how such epidemics work.

Rather than depend on my explanations or the explanations of others, both of which would most likely be faulty in some manner, you'll need instead to read a few books on the subject. No need to crack open and medical textbooks, so don't worry. Popular science books like The Hot Zone will do very well and the bibliographies in those books can point you to others.

Good luck!


Bill
 
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